Tim, I have sent an inquiry to Underground and an inquiry to Dr. Allender. In the next few days I will be sending out many more inquiries to those who can help shed light (instead of heat) on this situation.
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Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?
- Thread starter thamnophis123
- Start date
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
Lucille, for what purpose ? Underground could have responded had they wanted to. They chose not to. The bottom line is that they will no longer offer water snakes for sale. From an economical point of view. Is the profit worth the bad publicity. Not at all. I am not sure what you would be attempting to accomplish here and what is the inquiry ?
It is also possible that Underground could have purchased these snakes themselves and they could very easily say that it was shipped without any noticeable concerns. There are to many avenues here to divert blame. I dont know whats on there list or whom they advertise with online, but i am sure they will continue on this site as well as others.
It is also possible that Underground could have purchased these snakes themselves and they could very easily say that it was shipped without any noticeable concerns. There are to many avenues here to divert blame. I dont know whats on there list or whom they advertise with online, but i am sure they will continue on this site as well as others.
tim brophy
Active member
Not sure you really understand what ramifications of SFD are. It is not restricted to water snakes. It is highly contagious and merely halting the sale of water snakes (which I have not heard they have even done) will not resolve anything. If it is within a facility (Underground or any dealer for that matter) their entire stock of snakes is suspect. Have you ever seen the effects of SFD?
Pasodama
New member
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
Tim unless the ramifications are serious enough to bring in health officials. As much as i can understand your concern, Underground will or i should say are not obligated in doing anything. As whatever would be of concern to Uunderground would also apply to every other store or dealer and thats not going happen. As a matter of fact,
I was directly involved with Q fever which related to Ball pyhtons being imported in the early 70s. Prior to the guaranteeing of birds, the bird dealers would bring in Ball phthons in burlap bags with the African greys . We would buy the Balls, and basically the birds were freight free. Thats the way the business was UNTIL.............. Novack Avaries who was one of the bird importers had 3 of there employees, in the hospital with an assortment of health issues. Thr health dept was notified. Bob Novack provided the dept with the dealers who purchased the snakes. We were the major buyer. We received a call from the NYS dept of health asking if they could send a representative for blood samples from each of our employees, as well as a list of the python buyers, and where we maintained the snakes.
Back then we only supplied wholesalers and chains. We ourselves were importers. No individuals, received any snakes from us, but you can easily see how a chain reaction can occur. As it turned out, we did not have any medical problems, but interestingly when i contacted my attorney for some guidance, he assured me the Health Dept had no subpoena powers. So everything was a question of willing cooperation on my part.
in the end, the problem just disappeared. I do have some familarity with what was going on. Not to mention the hysteria on the baby greens. I can only tell you that in the end, nothing will be done unless it effects every store or herp operation here in Fla.
Your right i have no knowledge of this particular disease. but unless it transfers to human concerns and illnesses, right now its only a water snake.
Hopefully any disease like this can be treated with some kind of antibiotics without stressing the pet industry any further with possible health restrictions. By the way i may have mentioned earlier, The Q fever incident made the papers, and i may have a copy of the article. If so, let me know privately and i will be delighted to substantiate what i have provided in this post. JERRY
I was directly involved with Q fever which related to Ball pyhtons being imported in the early 70s. Prior to the guaranteeing of birds, the bird dealers would bring in Ball phthons in burlap bags with the African greys . We would buy the Balls, and basically the birds were freight free. Thats the way the business was UNTIL.............. Novack Avaries who was one of the bird importers had 3 of there employees, in the hospital with an assortment of health issues. Thr health dept was notified. Bob Novack provided the dept with the dealers who purchased the snakes. We were the major buyer. We received a call from the NYS dept of health asking if they could send a representative for blood samples from each of our employees, as well as a list of the python buyers, and where we maintained the snakes.
Back then we only supplied wholesalers and chains. We ourselves were importers. No individuals, received any snakes from us, but you can easily see how a chain reaction can occur. As it turned out, we did not have any medical problems, but interestingly when i contacted my attorney for some guidance, he assured me the Health Dept had no subpoena powers. So everything was a question of willing cooperation on my part.
in the end, the problem just disappeared. I do have some familarity with what was going on. Not to mention the hysteria on the baby greens. I can only tell you that in the end, nothing will be done unless it effects every store or herp operation here in Fla.
Your right i have no knowledge of this particular disease. but unless it transfers to human concerns and illnesses, right now its only a water snake.
Hopefully any disease like this can be treated with some kind of antibiotics without stressing the pet industry any further with possible health restrictions. By the way i may have mentioned earlier, The Q fever incident made the papers, and i may have a copy of the article. If so, let me know privately and i will be delighted to substantiate what i have provided in this post. JERRY
Jerry if you have an online copy of the Q fever article I would be delighted to see it, and hear anything else you may want to say, via email. If, as Tim Brophy has said,
it means the topic is already widespread, and so my quests and questions will be perfectly fine as both the topic, and the disease, are already out of the barn door.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
"It is highly contagious and merely halting the sale of water snakes (which I have not heard they have even done) will not resolve anything. If it is within a facility (Underground or any dealer for that matter) their entire stock of snakes is suspect. "
One other note: with regard to the above quote, what do you want to happen ! Is this leading to anyone who has a snake should have there entire snake collection tested. I can assume you would include "all snakes" as water snakes are not exactly what i would consider a desirable collectible.
In today's market, business are run out of homes more then they are run out of places of businesses unless we are talking about pet shops.
For sure those who seem to consider themselves as dealers are not going to advertise online and provide as a sell-able feature that there snakes are free from SFD. What you are suggesting is a non workable solution that would be financially impossible to deal with.
Right now in the state of Fla we have Indian Rocks hanging from every tree. Although there has never been a recorded bite from those who once or twice a year have permission to kill.
More Hognose snakes have been destroyed as mistaken for cobras by these zealots. Its not a round up. They kill the snake. This is there trophy.
Do we really want to pursue this down a path that will just lead to more restraints on an industry that pet haters would love to curtail to the closest you will see a snake will be in a post card..
One other note: with regard to the above quote, what do you want to happen ! Is this leading to anyone who has a snake should have there entire snake collection tested. I can assume you would include "all snakes" as water snakes are not exactly what i would consider a desirable collectible.
In today's market, business are run out of homes more then they are run out of places of businesses unless we are talking about pet shops.
For sure those who seem to consider themselves as dealers are not going to advertise online and provide as a sell-able feature that there snakes are free from SFD. What you are suggesting is a non workable solution that would be financially impossible to deal with.
Right now in the state of Fla we have Indian Rocks hanging from every tree. Although there has never been a recorded bite from those who once or twice a year have permission to kill.
More Hognose snakes have been destroyed as mistaken for cobras by these zealots. Its not a round up. They kill the snake. This is there trophy.
Do we really want to pursue this down a path that will just lead to more restraints on an industry that pet haters would love to curtail to the closest you will see a snake will be in a post card..
Robert Seib
New member
problem snakes
I had been buying wild caught Brazilian Rainbow Boas from Underground Reptiles, but the last shipment of 6 was a problem. One died within several days and another is dying. They all had a tick outbreak which I don't know how to eradicate. Reptile spray does not work. I pick them off daily. Only two of the 6 have eaten. I'm treating them with flagyl and panacure.
When the first snake died I called them. I was told that they don't refund money for wild caught snakes because the buyer is taking a risk.
I had been buying wild caught Brazilian Rainbow Boas from Underground Reptiles, but the last shipment of 6 was a problem. One died within several days and another is dying. They all had a tick outbreak which I don't know how to eradicate. Reptile spray does not work. I pick them off daily. Only two of the 6 have eaten. I'm treating them with flagyl and panacure.
When the first snake died I called them. I was told that they don't refund money for wild caught snakes because the buyer is taking a risk.
snowgyre
Well-known member
As I mentioned before, this is a grossly unethical way of thinking. You are placing the luxury of owning these animals as pets than the conservation of these organisms in the wild and the health of these organisms in captivity. I suggest you read up on SFD before you comment further.
http://wildlife.org/resilient-fungus-is-deadly-snake-killer/
A notable quote from the above article by Dr. Allender who did the testing on the snakes mentioned in this thread:
"Raudabaugh said that he wants to make sure that the fungus, which currently only resides in the U.S., as far as they know, doesn’t spread to other countries as the white-nose fungus has been transported from Europe to North America. Meanwhile, Allender said there is no indication that snake trade did or did not cause the disease to spread to begin with. “It is too early to speculate on where the fungus came from, but it is widespread and does not currently appear to me to have been introduced recently in a single location,” he said. However, Raudabaugh and Allender both agree that it is important to be careful about spreading the fungus further."
We now have a smoking gun that the reptile trade has bought and sold a SFD positive animal and transported it across state lines. We're the ones who are exacerbating the problem. The so-called "pet haters" didn't do anything to us, we 100% own the blame for any fallout that occurs because we did it to ourselves.
Again, take the general discussion of the disease and possible ramifications on our hobby to the DISCUSSION forum, there was a thread created for it.
This thread is specifically about Underground Reptiles. Not sure how many times this needs to be stated...
This thread is specifically about Underground Reptiles. Not sure how many times this needs to be stated...
Having never been to UR's facility I can't comment, but I thought that the larger importers/distributors had multiple buildings and outdoor areas set up so that species could be kept separately and according to their specific husbandry needs. So unless customers start reporting ball pythons or boas with SFD that were purchased from UR, I don't think you can state at this time that any snake they have for sale is suspect.
Also, do we know that the SFD+ snakes were born at UR, or did UR purchase them from another supplier?
Also, do we know that the SFD+ snakes were born at UR, or did UR purchase them from another supplier?
Those products don't work very well on ticks, they're mainly for internal parasites. Make a weak permethrin solution, like you would for snake mites; permethrin kills ticks in seconds. Wipe the snakes with a rag or paper towel that has been damped with the solution (keep it away from their faces/mouths), wait a minute, then wash the snake off. Since they're debilitated, you really don't want to risk them ingesting the permethrin.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
From what i understand UR does have another facility and it is outdoors. There wholesale place however is indoors, i have not been there. They also have a retail operation which i have frequented and its very well kept.
That being said, Wild caught herps always can present a challenging problem to even an experienced keeper. I dont know nor does anyone else know whether the infected snake was received that way and introduced into the stock or while in possession acquired it from poor husbandryor a pre existing problem already in UR
Regardless, As a precautionary method, if there is any current inventory, these snakes should be isolated, treated or destroyed as a final resort. But we dont stop the trade ! We dont encourage outside influences from exacerbating the situation.
That being said, Wild caught herps always can present a challenging problem to even an experienced keeper. I dont know nor does anyone else know whether the infected snake was received that way and introduced into the stock or while in possession acquired it from poor husbandryor a pre existing problem already in UR
Regardless, As a precautionary method, if there is any current inventory, these snakes should be isolated, treated or destroyed as a final resort. But we dont stop the trade ! We dont encourage outside influences from exacerbating the situation.
tim brophy
Active member
My point being that SFD is highly contagious. It is a fungus and can be easily transmitted through equipment, collectings bags, etc. Let me rephrase it this way. To me, anything found within there store is suspect. I, personally, would not touch anything in their store, let alone buy anything, for fear of infecting my personal collection. It does not come close to passing my personal risk/reward evaluation.
I came to that conclusion long before the OP started this thread based on the experiences posted by other customers.
tlmoon
New member
I agree. It's concerning that UR doesn't seem to be taking any steps like this. If our industry doesn't police itself, the government is much more likely to step in and do it for us. Frankly, if a known problem like this is ignored by a seller and they continue to sell infected snakes, I really wouldn't blame regulators for getting involved.
Maybe UR is taking action but not saying anything? Although if they are still selling water snakes that would imply they are not.
Maybe if we who are concerned contacted UR to politely request they address the issue and temporarily at least stop selling water snakes that might help. I realize this issue is bigger than just UR - but as someone said the smoking gun is the snakes from them, so I do believe they have the responsibility to not spread any more infected snakes.
snakesareawesome
Active member
UR did pull their watersnake ads last I had seen. Hopefully any left were destroyed and any third parties notified but unless they comment there is no real way to be sure what did or did not happen.
I hope that UR and other commercial enterprises are reading this thread. As I said a few posts ago, I wrote Dr. Allender to ask what those enterprises should do, to prevent the spread of this disease.
There have been many suggestions, but Dr. Allender, an expert, has come up with some, and I believe that UR and other enterprises should consider these recommendations. It was a great privilege that he took his time to write to me and I appreciate his time, I have invited him to register here if he wishes to do so.
HI Lucille,
I’m not a member of your site, but I can make a few summaries that you may share:
1. There is much we do not know about SFD. We don’t know its mortality rate in many species, don’t know the impact on populations, don’t know the origin, and don’t know the distribution.
2. We are aware that in a study that evaluated snakes back to 1880 in Illinois, it wasn’t detected until the year 2000. It is unclear why it emerged at that point.
3. It has been seen in over 15 genera of snakes, including many captive animals, but the impact on these animals is unknown because many are un-tested and lost to follow-up.
4. In certain species, known fates of the animals can demonstrate mortality rates up to 95%, but the true mortality rate is still unknown. In other species, they seem to have a much lower mortality rate, but in many cases those are lost to follow-up, so it might be that they just look better, but still die earlier than unaffected animals.
5. It is best to avoid introduction into your collection through these steps:
a. Quarantine all new snakes in separate rooms with separate equipment (hooks, tongs, etc) for a minimum of 90 days
b. Swab or biopsy and test using the qPCR available at the Wildlife Epidemiology Lab
c. If an animal has lesions, then prevent introduction and if treated, then at least 3 negative tests before coming abck into the collection.
6. Avoid sending carrier or affected animals out by:
a. Observing for skin lesions and not sending animals
b. Random testing of animals going out for shipment
Hope this helps,
--
Matt Allender, DVM, MS, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Director, Wildlife Epidemiology Lab
Assistant Professor
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Illinois
3846 VMBSB
2001 S. Lincoln Ave., Urbana, IL 61802
217-265-0320
vetmed.illinois.edu/wel
There have been many suggestions, but Dr. Allender, an expert, has come up with some, and I believe that UR and other enterprises should consider these recommendations. It was a great privilege that he took his time to write to me and I appreciate his time, I have invited him to register here if he wishes to do so.
HI Lucille,
I’m not a member of your site, but I can make a few summaries that you may share:
1. There is much we do not know about SFD. We don’t know its mortality rate in many species, don’t know the impact on populations, don’t know the origin, and don’t know the distribution.
2. We are aware that in a study that evaluated snakes back to 1880 in Illinois, it wasn’t detected until the year 2000. It is unclear why it emerged at that point.
3. It has been seen in over 15 genera of snakes, including many captive animals, but the impact on these animals is unknown because many are un-tested and lost to follow-up.
4. In certain species, known fates of the animals can demonstrate mortality rates up to 95%, but the true mortality rate is still unknown. In other species, they seem to have a much lower mortality rate, but in many cases those are lost to follow-up, so it might be that they just look better, but still die earlier than unaffected animals.
5. It is best to avoid introduction into your collection through these steps:
a. Quarantine all new snakes in separate rooms with separate equipment (hooks, tongs, etc) for a minimum of 90 days
b. Swab or biopsy and test using the qPCR available at the Wildlife Epidemiology Lab
c. If an animal has lesions, then prevent introduction and if treated, then at least 3 negative tests before coming abck into the collection.
6. Avoid sending carrier or affected animals out by:
a. Observing for skin lesions and not sending animals
b. Random testing of animals going out for shipment
Hope this helps,
--
Matt Allender, DVM, MS, PhD, Dipl. ACZM
Director, Wildlife Epidemiology Lab
Assistant Professor
College of Veterinary Medicine
University of Illinois
3846 VMBSB
2001 S. Lincoln Ave., Urbana, IL 61802
217-265-0320
vetmed.illinois.edu/wel
snakesareawesome
Active member
My .02 is that it's not worth UR or any other business being associated with SFD and they should stop selling WC snakes from infected regions. That would seem to me to be the best way to reduce the risk of being associated with this disease. Otherwise, holding the animals for a couple of months and checking for signs of the disease would be option #2 and would probably nullify any profits associated with selling such snakes so back to option #1 still being the best course of action.
snakesareawesome
Active member
any of the native snakes from infected regions worth anything are already bred in huge numbers and the rest are 10$ snakes that you can't make any money on anyway unless someone needs a bunch of cobra food.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
Kevin, your absolutely right. The snake is not worth the bad publicity that will hurt UR and possibly cause not only additional financial hardship, but other potential customers looking to buy any snake from them will be of a heightened concern (if they know about this post)
If not, then hopefully, UR will come to there senses and deal with it correctly. Right now under these conditions I am sure they are quite aware of whats going on.
The impetus for doing something is always financial. For sure they do not want to loose money on Ball Python sales over a water snake problem. I think they are smart enough to realize that as well...........I hope. JERRY
If not, then hopefully, UR will come to there senses and deal with it correctly. Right now under these conditions I am sure they are quite aware of whats going on.
The impetus for doing something is always financial. For sure they do not want to loose money on Ball Python sales over a water snake problem. I think they are smart enough to realize that as well...........I hope. JERRY