Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

[Logan256]

The one thing that has puzzled me in this entire thread is this. Just who really buys water snakes? In the herpetocultural community they are insignificant. A few keepers have an interest in them, as evidenced by this thread. but not too many. Not enough to account for the number Underground Reptiles sells. So who buys all of these inexpensive and very common snakes? I believe it is folks who keep snakes that are snake-eaters (e.g. king cobras, cribos, etc.). They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

Speaking for myself, I bought the water snakes because while I've always been curious about them as captives, I'd never actually kept one before. I keep mostly pythons, boas, and a few other select colubrids, so when I saw the CB babies for sale I decided to try my hand at a new (for me) and somewhat underrepresented species. For the experience, you could say. If only 100 people see the ad each season and feel the same way, the numbers could definitely add up - especially when they're offered in convenient and low-cost multi-packs.

As far as using them as food, I imagine that's fairly common as well. As SFD is known to be transmitted through direct contact, I would say feeding infected snakes would be considered (at least by me) high-risk.

 

[Lucille]

You know the number one rule in journalism is that after the interviewee leaves, the interviewer never says another word.

That is simply not true. Journalists do not stop writing if an interviewee leaves or says no comment. They gather and write as much relevant information as they can from all sources.
Adults are, except for very limited circumstances that do not apply here, responsible for their own words and behavior. If someone cannot manage to follow the relatively simple rules for posting here, it is they who are responsible if they cannot subsequently post because of a ban.

Rian raises some excellent points.

I see no empirical evidence that says the source of the SFD was from Underground. Joe's behavior and subsequent inability to maintain a professional attitude when questioned should speak monumentally if you ask me.

The whole thing reeks of fish, and not the good kind.

Well said, and I agree.
I do feel that all of us including Underground and everyone else, going forward, should be mindful of what Dr. Allender had to say. This thread has been a learning experience for me and I would think for many others. I appreciate those with scientific knowledge that took their time to bring it here.

Sweeping the usual procedures of the BOI and how we come to the conclusions we typically do under the guise of some kind of Apocalyptic fear mongering simply won't fly.

It took courage to stand up for the process here. Kudos to you for doing so.

Having an investigative officer visually inspect UR's facility, & snakes/reptiles, does give some comfort in that nothing was found amiss.
That bit of comfort, however, is limited since no testing, etc., was done.
Still, as I mentioned earlier, it is, at the least end, something (to the positive).

The investigation is a positive step. Testing would be another positive step.
There is so much we don't know about this disease, but if large and well known sellers lead the way by having random testing of animals going out for shipment as Dr. Allender has suggested, I think that proactive behavior will help the entire community.
I think that sort of testing will have positive commercial implications as well if this disease becomes more widespread. Buyers may be more confident. Hopefully the next major breakthrough will establish how this disease is transmitted, until then, buyers will rely on excellent quarantine and careful purchasing.

 

[tim brophy]

Speaking for myself, I bought the water snakes because while I've always been curious about them as captives, I'd never actually kept one before. I keep mostly pythons, boas, and a few other select colubrids, so when I saw the CB babies for sale I decided to try my hand at a new (for me) and somewhat underrepresented species. For the experience, you could say. If only 100 people see the ad each season and feel the same way, the numbers could definitely add up - especially when they're offered in convenient and low-cost multi-packs.

As far as using them as food, I imagine that's fairly common as well. As SFD is known to be transmitted through direct contact, I would say feeding infected snakes would be considered (at least by me) high-risk.

Yes, you and Joe I would consider unique in this regard. But the fact that they are offered in these "convenient and low-cost multi-packs" is further evidence that they are being collected from the wild and largely being sold as snake food.

 

[snakesareawesome]

I don't believe anything further can be determined at this time until Logan also has her snake tested. If it tests negative, I would say there's not enough information to draw any conclusions, if it tests positive then I am convinced of the source.

 

[DavidBeard]

The one thing that has puzzled me in this entire thread is this. Just who really buys water snakes? In the herpetocultural community they are insignificant. A few keepers have an interest in them, as evidenced by this thread. but not too many. Not enough to account for the number Underground Reptiles sells. So who buys all of these inexpensive and very common snakes? I believe it is folks who keep snakes that are snake-eaters (e.g. king cobras, cribos, etc.). They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

Apparently people who claim to be well-educated conservationalists, lol.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

They use them as snake food. Can SFD be transmitted in this manner?

My impression is that the water snakes have skin issues in general, considering a tiny drop of moisture in their enclosure causes them to get blisters.

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

 

[Fangthane]

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

An opinion obviously formed after pointedly avoiding the pursuit of actual facts on the subject. It's understandable, though. I mean, it's not like someone created a separate thread, with some links in the OP that effectively show someone holding such an opinion to be very uninformed. Wait. Now that I think about it, someone did just that.

 

[dieselfan]

My impression is that the water snakes have skin issues in general, considering a tiny drop of moisture in their enclosure causes them to get blisters.

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

It seems that the majority of snakes found displaying this disease are actually ratsnakes, and rattlesnakes. Not Nerodia ssp's or even animals commonly found in bodies of water.Also how does the value of an animal play a role in how the disease transmits to a host? That seems like a crappy thing to say. Care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?

 

[DavidBeard]

Whaqt I don't understand is that if people like the OP have so much experience with Nerodia, why are thye not breeding themselves instead of buying $5 wild caught from brokers?

 

[dieselfan]

Whaqt I don't understand is that if people like the OP have so much experience with Nerodia, why are thye not breeding themselves instead of buying $5 wild caught from brokers?

Good point David. It is possible that the few people in the US who are producing CBB Nerodia might not be working with the species that the OP and the others who have came forward with infected animals are looking for. Right?

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

It seems that the majority of snakes found displaying this disease are actually ratsnakes, and rattlesnakes. Not Nerodia ssp's or even animals commonly found in bodies of water.Also how does the value of an animal play a role in how the disease transmits to a host? That seems like a crappy thing to say. Care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?

Yes. People generally aren't willing to get elaborate tests done (that cost $200) on a cheap snake (that costs $2). I didn't say anything about how it transmits, simply that if more valuable snakes got it you would have heard of it because of the breeders with money tied up in them.

It wasn't meant as an insult, just a fact. Someone with a snake that costs $5000 is going to be much more likely pay to have vet tests done.

Do you disagree? That seemed to upset you and it wasn't stated as anything meant to be insulting.

 

[tim brophy]

My impression is that the water snakes have skin issues in general, considering a tiny drop of moisture in their enclosure causes them to get blisters.

If other snakes (that are worth more) could get this disease I guarantee you would have heard of it by now. My opinion is that it will prove to be exclusive to water snakes, especially considering their affinity for contracting skin diseases compared to other species.

I believe SFD was first detected in timber rattlesnakes in the northeast. It has also been found on rat snakes and other colubrids besides water snakes. Also massaugua rattlenskes in central Illinois.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

I believe SFD was first detected in timber rattlesnakes in the northeast. It has also been found on rat snakes and other colubrids besides water snakes. Also massaugua rattlenskes in central Illinois.

Good to know, thank you. This isn't something terribly interesting to me so I didn't bother researching it other than what has been stated in this thread.

That being the case, if it did originate at UR, wouldn't it have undoubtedly spread to their other animals, and wouldn't their be a massive outbreak of the disease? Since that hasn't happened I'm inclined to believe that they aren't the source.

 

[dieselfan]

Yes. People generally aren't willing to get elaborate tests done (that cost $200) on a cheap snake (that costs $2). I didn't say anything about how it transmits, simply that if more valuable snakes got it you would have heard of it because of the breeders with money tied up in them.

It wasn't meant as an insult, just a fact. Someone with a snake that costs $5000 is going to be much more likely pay to have vet tests done.

Do you disagree? That seemed to upset you and it wasn't stated as anything meant to be insulting.

No insult taken Nick. Merely a difference of opinion. I think we are on the same page but with different views. It seems that this thread is about Underground Reptiles and animals they sold that were possibly infected with SFD and it just so happens that 3 different people living in different states all ordered Nerodia from UR and now their animals are displaying symptoms of SFD. Coincidence maybe. I just dont see it.

 

[tim brophy]

Good to know, thank you. This isn't something terribly interesting to me so I didn't bother researching it other than what has been stated in this thread.

That being the case, if it did originate at UR, wouldn't it have undoubtedly spread to their other animals, and wouldn't their be a massive outbreak of the disease? Since that hasn't happened I'm inclined to believe that they aren't the source.

Perhaps. Time will tell. As I said previously, I believe most folks who buy water snakes from UR buy them as feeder snakes for snake-eating species. Few hobbyists keep them. Frankly, they bite and musk a lot, not a fun species to handle. Joe and Logan are exceptions; they keep some species which others ignore. I assume those who buy feeder Nerodia freeze them for several weeks before offering them to their snake eaters. Including zoos.
I will say, in all honesty, I believe it is much more likely that the water snakes with SFD already had it when they went to UR's facility or they caught it at UR's facility, where large numbers of water snakes are held in close confinement, than at Joe's home, where he keeps a handful of snakes.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

No insult taken Nick. Merely a difference of opinion. I think we are on the same page but with different views. It seems that this thread is about Underground Reptiles and animals they sold that were possibly infected with SFD and it just so happens that 3 different people living in different states all ordered Nerodia from UR and now their animals are displaying symptoms of SFD. Coincidence maybe. I just dont see it.

I thought it was only joe and Logan?

I agree, it's very weird, but the fact also stands that a neutral party from fish and wildlife examined underground's facility and found nothing. Those two things don't make sense together.

As it stands, Logan's snake hasn't tested positive yet. It has similar symptoms but there is no definitive diagnosis. It could turn out that joe had the disease in his collection and it spread to the ones he got from UR, since it's not at their facility. None of us really know. If Logan snake comes back negative I think that gives more evidence that it didn't start at UR. I also think the fact that they ship out hundreds of animals and there hasn't been an outbreak is telling as well.

Some of us said from the beginning, joe seems to have a motive here different than his original claim. That could be part of what is going on here. If he was worried about an outbreak, why wouldn't he have contacted UR to make them aware of it as soon as possible? Instead, he posted all over facebook and other media about it. It just doesn't add up.

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Perhaps. Time will tell. As I said previously, I believe most folks who buy water snakes from UR buy them as feeder snakes for snake-eating species. Few hobbyists keep them. Frankly, they bite and musk a lot, not a fun species to handle. Joe and Logan are exceptions; they keep some species which others ignore. I assume those who buy feeder Nerodia freeze them for several weeks before offering them to their snake eaters. Including zoos.

You might be right about that, I can't imagine there's much of a market for them as pets.

One thing joe said to me in PMs is that he's worked directly with all kinds of importers. For him to be in that sort of environment means that he has been exposed to an untold amount of diseases brought in by wild caught animals. It also might be an explanation for why he has a grudge against Underground. He said he worked with an importer in FL (where UR is located). Food for thought.

Here's what was said: "I've been in herps for 40 some years. Used to be with Florida importers, used to jobber herps through CA importers, worked with more species than you'll ever see"

 

[dieselfan]

I thought it was only joe and Logan?

I agree, it's very weird, but the fact also stands that a neutral party from fish and wildlife examined underground's facility and found nothing. Those two things don't make sense together.

As it stands, Logan's snake hasn't tested positive yet. It has similar symptoms but there is no definitive diagnosis. It could turn out that joe had the disease in his collection and it spread to the ones he got from UR, since it's not at their facility. None of us really know. If Logan snake comes back negative I think that gives more evidence that it didn't start at UR. I also think the fact that they ship out hundreds of animals and there hasn't been an outbreak is telling as well.

Some of us said from the beginning, joe seems to have a motive here different than his original claim. That could be part of what is going on here. If he was worried about an outbreak, why wouldn't he have contacted UR to make them aware of it as soon as possible? Instead, he posted all over facebook and other media about it. It just doesn't add up.

Those are some very good points. However despite Joe's lack of immediate notification to UR about the possible SFD present with his order we are all still stuck with the reality that others have come forward with same issues with their animals that came from UR. I do not see the correlation between Joe's infected animals and the 2 other people who ended up with possibly SFD Nerodia that they happened to purchase from UR. Maybe you could help?

 

[Big Borg Reptiles]

Until Logan's snake tests positive or negative I don't think it's a good idea for me to make any claims. Like I said, if multiple animals came from UR and test positive for the disease, but someone inspected their facility and found nothing...I don't know, it just doesn't make sense.

On one hand you have to argue that OBVIOUSLY it originated there since multiple people who are completely unrelated got it, but if it's not at UR based on an inspection, the argument fails? It doesn't fit unless Logan's snake tests negative. Until then no one knows.

 

[dieselfan]

Until Logan's snake tests positive or negative I don't think it's a good idea for me to make any claims. Like I said, if multiple animals came from UR and test positive for the disease, but someone inspected their facility and found nothing...I don't know, it just doesn't make sense.

On one hand you have to argue that OBVIOUSLY it originated there since multiple people who are completely unrelated got it, but if it's not at UR based on an inspection, the argument fails? It doesn't fit unless Logan's snake tests negative. Until then no one knows.

You are absolutely right! But UR did have a heads up that a dime had been dropped on them possibly selling infected animals. Which gave them a day or so to "scrub" their facilities. That is a very real variable. Dont get me wrong this is a possible lose-lose situation for all of us who keep and breed reptiles as a hobby.