• Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

  • IMPORTANT! PLEASE READ!! About the Google Adsense ads being displayed

    =====================
    Posted 08/15/2025
    =====================


    Yeah, I know. They are a pain in the butt. But they pay the bills to keep my server running. Just a fact of life, I am afraid.

    Want to get rid of them? Simple. Just become a Contributor level member or above and they will be gone. -> Please click HERE."

    Is that too much for me to ask of you to keep this site running? Well, sorry about that. I too wish I could get everything for free. But alas.....

    =====================
    Addendum: 01/10/2026
    =====================


    Google Adsense ad revenue for December, 2025 was just $30 over the cost of the lease for the server running this site. So, in effect, the money providing the incentive for me to continue running this site is coming SOLELY from the paid memberships and sponsorships here. Which honestly ain't much....

Inquiry Underground Reptiles: Sick animal inquiry?

I believe that, unless any others come forth with SFD infected snakes from UR, there isn't really anywhere else to go with this particular thread/complaint.:shrug01:
This thread, to date, has not produced the needed "smoking gun" to 100% count UR as guilty.

~~~~
 
I believe that, unless any others come forth with SFD infected snakes from UR, there isn't really anywhere else to go with this particular thread/complaint.:shrug01:
This thread, to date, has not produced the needed "smoking gun" to 100% count UR as guilty.

~~~~

Agreed.
 
And don't forget, earlier in this thread when I mentioned the Burmese issue he argued back IN FAVOR OF the ban. While reporting on a trumped up, *possibly completely falsified* issue and involving USFW in an effort to pass even more laws.

So this guy is in favor of the constrictor ban that was passed under the guise of protecting our wildlife, and he is trying to get more animals banned, under the guise of protecting our wildlife.

Warning bells are ringing folks! Connect the dots here...

Oh, I'm with you, Mike. If anyone doubts what you are saying, I encourage them to check out the "study" that was used as ammunition to get those large constrictor regulations passed:

https://www.nps.gov/ever/learn/news...n-native-python-habitat-along-3-us-coasts.htm

Click on the maps at the bottom of the website. It's laughable.
 
That really was quite an odd statement for the OP to make.
Not necessarily. Anyone having any knowledge of Underground's sordid past might not really expect stunning quality from them - especially in WC snakes. Acknowledging the very real possibility that their WC animals may arrive with more "standard" issues - URI, internal/external parasite load, etc - actually sounds reasonable. These are several of the more garden-variety types of "sick" snakes that one might fear to receive. Knowing that the garden-variety stuff is a realistic possibility is a world apart from considering that they might arrive with a serious, contagious fungal infection.

If anyone's going to pick his "I got what I expected" statement to latch on to as their primary red flag, I think it shows nothing more than an unwillingness to acknowledge any realistic view that might not fit with their established opinion of what his motives were. I think it's a bit flimsy, much like the following nonsense:
Tim I'm surprised to see you here after you were caught spreading those lies about Underground.
It's easy to ride knee-jerk reactions that might seem easily supported on the surface, but those with any real interest in the truth would probably be more inclined to acknowledge that those of us who don't just talk a lot without actually saying much of anything don't always choose our words with the care that a lawyer might employ. It's like one of those situations where someone says they're done with a thread, but ends up being drawn back in. There's always a certain type of person who'll fall over themselves in their rush to say, "Aha! You posted again so you're a liar!" Sure, their statement ended up being untrue, but in and of itself, it's pretty meaningless in the grand scheme of things.
 
If the BOI isn't interested in the truth, then why would anyone be interested in the BOI?

The BOI is very much interested in the "truth", and identifying those who are truthful. The BOI is also interested in weeding out the fake, the games, the agendas.

1. Joe Monahan = Boone Farmers & Neighbors http://www.newsrepublican.com/opini...support-local-control-animal-confiements.html
2. "Pork/Don Thorston" Account = Pork Hurts = Thomas Hughes FB (created 6/21/16)
3. Who is Thomas Hughes??

"Tell a lie once and all your truths become questionable"
 

Attachments

  • aaaaa.jpg
    aaaaa.jpg
    351.4 KB · Views: 226
Not necessarily. Anyone having any knowledge of Underground's sordid past might not really expect stunning quality from them - especially in WC snakes. Acknowledging the very real possibility that their WC animals may arrive with more "standard" issues - URI, internal/external parasite load, etc - actually sounds reasonable. These are several of the more garden-variety types of "sick" snakes that one might fear to receive. Knowing that the garden-variety stuff is a realistic possibility is a world apart from considering that they might arrive with a serious, contagious fungal infection.

If anyone's going to pick his "I got what I expected" statement to latch on to as their primary red flag, I think it shows nothing more than an unwillingness to acknowledge any realistic view that might not fit with their established opinion of what his motives were. I think it's a bit flimsy, much like the following nonsense

I understand what you are saying.
Still, I would not order from someone who has a high propensity of selling, and shipping out, sick animals.

I, myself, did not find the OP's comment to be a red flag as to his motives, etc.
Just found it "odd" since I would not order something with that expectation.
To each their own though.

~~~~
 
Still, I would not order from someone who has a high propensity of selling, and shipping out, sick animals. I dont know about a "high propensity" but i will tell you this much. The major difference between UR relates to exposure from doing business with individuals and looking for that kind of business. There are many dealers who sell to stores and wholesalers only. Thats not to say that you may not have access, but all of the misery associated with this thread is a result of this.

UR should reconsider whom they want as there customer base. I am sure they would have loved to avoid all of this negative attraction and bad publicity over a water snake.

Why even bother to sell to the open public is something apparently that has caught up to them. It is very possible that they may take an entirely different posture with possibly a much larger minimum order or just dealing with trade only dealers. That is not going to excuse bad animals, but it may exclude trouble makers who have nothing better to do then complain if something happens after a 4 month sale.
 
Jerry, with my comment of "high propensity", I meant that in general terms. Was not, specifically, pointing fingers at UR.

~~~~
 
.
If anyone's going to pick his "I got what I expected" statement to latch on to as their primary red flag.

If it makes you feel better, that wasn't even remotely close to the primary red flag for me. I would say the fact that he didn't even notify UR that there was a potential problem but went straight to fish and wildlife to tell them there was a highly contagious disease outbreak (before he had any proof) was towards the top of my list.
 
Thank you Deb, One other point which relates to me. I had access to many importers that would not sell to individuals. I was guided by common sense, not to shake the tree if i lost an animal or the item(s) in question that i purchased did not meet my satisfaction.

Thats the business i chose and if to many complaints would follow, i would have been cut off from dealing with that business so sometimes it works out well and other times it may not. I always bought wisely. I was fortunate as a courtesy to deal at imported prices with only purchasing one or two items at a real discounted price.

Complaining was not part of equation . These importers do not offer items for sale on Kingsnake or Fauna. They have there own clientele and there customer base is enough for them to be quite selective in whom they want to do business with. UR does not apply itself to that catagory. Their exposure is not an envious position in my estimation.

In this case the buyer did not care and felt that bringing it to the BOI was the better choice of action. The fault here lies with UR for putting themselves into a position that hardly benefits them and in away its sad because nothing good comes out of bad service .

Had the snake arrived DOA , the condition could have been remedied easier then what we have here in this thread. The high propensity in general or specific terms really relates to a non avoidance attitude that only occurs when a business like UR opens a door looking for any kind of business without realizing the ramification on its own worth.
 
The BOI is very much interested in the "truth", and identifying those who are truthful. The BOI is also interested in weeding out the fake, the games, the agendas.

1. Joe Monahan = Boone Farmers & Neighbors http://www.newsrepublican.com/opini...support-local-control-animal-confiements.html
2. "Pork/Don Thorston" Account = Pork Hurts = Thomas Hughes FB (created 6/21/16)
3. Who is Thomas Hughes??

"Tell a lie once and all your truths become questionable"

Nobody else seems to have noticed this guy's very clear animal rights/ anti-pet-industry agenda in creating this entire issue.
 
Do wild caught specimens lead to SFD?
Does one have to "deal" in wild caught populations for SFD to spread or does one only need to house wild caught specimens, or have them consistently around their collection?

Is SFD always visibly detected? If not could any wild caught snake bring it into your collection without you noticing?
 

Attachments

  • qqqqqq.jpg
    qqqqqq.jpg
    224 KB · Views: 200
figured it might be best to copy paste the article in case the link doesn't work or vanishes :) would have done a save screen shot, but can't from work !!
but here's the article in full minus pictures.

Over the past decade, biologists in the United States have been tracking the rise of a deadly disease affecting snakes. Exactly where it came from, how it spreads and what it means for infected snake populations are all still rather mysterious. Now, a new report has revealed the disease is popping up in far more places – and in more snake species – than we thought.

Snake Fungal Disease (SFD) is a skin condition that first caught scientists' attention back in 2006, when it struck a population of timber rattlesnakes in New Hampshire, cutting their numbers dramatically. Two years later, it wreaked similar havoc on rattlers in Illinois.

Since then, the number of reports has continued to rise. Just this past year has seen reports coming out of Virginia, Louisiana and Ontario – the first reported case outside the United States. The new report, put together by scientists from the US Geological Survey and colleagues, delivers the hard numbers: SFD has now been reported from at least 20 different states (plus Ontario), and it's affected more than 30 different snake species, from rattlers to rat snakes.

The disease has been on scientists' radar for only a short time, so they're still working on understanding it, but last year, the culprit was finally identified: a fungus named Ophidiomyces ophiodiicola. The disease causes blisters, ulcers, scabs and various other skin conditions in infected snakes. Most of the time, the effects seem to be fairly mild, but in some cases – for reasons that aren't fully understood – it can be extremely dangerous.

The New Hampshire outbreak detected in 2006 caused a 50% decline in the already-small population of local timber rattlesnakes. In Illinois, the fungus struck an endangered population of massasaugas (pygmy rattlers). A more recent case caused a decline of almost 20% in a community of Lake Erie watersnakes, a species that was only recently removed from the Threatened Species List.

"Some snake populations in the eastern and Midwestern US could eventually face extinction as a result of SFD," says Jeff Lorch, lead author of the new study. "[W]e still need to determine why these mild infections are becoming more severe and fatal in certain areas."

snake fungal disease2_2016_12_05.jpg
A northern water snake (Nerodia sipedon) with crusty and thickened scales overlaying raised blisters as a result of a fungal skin infection, captured in western Lake Erie, Ohio. Image: D.E. Green, USGS National Wildlife Health Center.

It is possible the disease was introduced into the wild from captive snakes, but the new report highlights the possibility that the fungus has been out there for a while, and that changing conditions have given it the opportunity to go viral (or, in this case, fungal). The outbreak in New Hampshire, for example, happened during a time of particularly wet conditions. Increased temperatures might also be a factor, especially as the fungus targets snakes in their warm, cozy hibernation spots during the colder months.

"There is not a lot of information about Ophidiomyces ophidicola … in terms of virulence factors or how the fungus kills some snakes and not others," says Heather Fenton of the College of Veterinary Medicine at the University of Georgia, who wasn't part of this new study. The snakes hit hardest, she suggests, may have underlying conditions that make them more vulnerable.

"It currently isn't clear that the fungus is necessarily spreading," Fenton says, though it is possible the disease is already present in more places than have been documented. Efforts are currently underway to assess just how widespread it might be, across the United States and elsewhere.

Worryingly, this is at least the third major fungal disease that has emerged recently as a threat to wildlife. Denizens of North America may be familiar with white-nose syndrome, a fungal condition that has been devastating bat populations by interrupting their hibernation cycle. And perhaps the most terrifying fungus of our time is the chytrid fungus that currently affects nearly 300 amphibian species in over 30 countries around the world.

Researchers point out that fungal diseases like SFD can be particularly dangerous because they can infect a variety of species and can survive in the environment outside of a host. Biologists are now worried that already-stressed populations of snakes – many currently threatened by other factors such as habitat loss or environmental changes – may fall victim to this opportunistic pathogen.

Snakes might not have a great reputation among many people, but they are crucial members of natural ecosystems, and as some of nature's most incredible predators, they control the spread of pests – like insects and rodents – that can damage crops and spread disease. We may not always get along with them, but a world without snakes would be neither a happy nor a healthy place.
 
Originally Posted by Mike Schultz View Post
Nobody else seems to have noticed this guy's very clear animal rights/ anti-pet-industry agenda in creating this entire issue.

Thanks to Lucille's links, I definitely noticed! It makes me wonder if he decided to pin the SFD on Underground as an attempt to hamper captive trade of snakes. The fact that he went directly to the F&W instead of discussing the issue with UR first is very suspicious and seems like potential sabotage...
 
The latest round of links came from Robert but I agree, they are eye opening.
 
In the interest of full disclosure, I am the guy who made the incorrect comment about Fauna having Underground Reptiles as a big advertiser. It was not Joe Monahan.

Lucille, I was not lying. I actually thought Underground Reptiles was a significant contributor to Fauna. .

Regardless, I think the insinuation that if he were some big sponsor that he would receive some special status is bad enough. Wouldn't happen here and that you would suggest that would make some difference in how this thread is handled really is underhanded and lacking any basis in fact.

Nobody buys protection here.
 
Back
Top