Bad Guy Underground Reptiles

[garsik]

I understand the confusion about the time lines because they have not been accurately described. On 1/15 I texted Underground about taking some animals I was electing to get rid of. They texted to bring them by any time and they would make an offer. I honestly don't know when I brought them in but doubt it was the very next day. On 2/23 I sent a text explaining that I was still waiting on an offer. A few more texts were sent with no serious response. No phone conversations took place and I just assumed they were displaying the snake in their retail store. Things were going at an unsurprising South Florida pace. On 3/15 I noticed the Cobra being advertised. I immediately texted and was told to call. I did and at that time was given a first offer which I refused. I explained the snakes would be picked up by our mutual friend. There was no further contact but when attempting to retrieve the snakes a week later (not weeks) the cobra had been sold. I understand that the interpretation of time seems to be a defining issue. The lapses are not as long as presented and are certainly open to interpretation as to what is reasonable, depending on the need to exploit them.
When I dropped the animals off I was told I would be contacted with an offer. I have never transferred ownership of a venomous animal without exchanging license information. They did not ask so I assumed this was a loan until the final details could be worked out. My inspection occurred in the first week or so of January. I had moved the animals to a smaller room to comply with the new regulations. I passed the inspection with no problem but decided to downsize a little. At no time was I under duress or time pressure. This was purely a free choice. I had never indicated a need for assistance in order to remain legal with my permit. This is a wild goose chase and false.
I hope this clears thing up a bit. I have spoken to FWC and we are on the same page.
I have learned my lesson and am truthfully telling this story.

 

[BobO'Booey]

It may not seem like it but I'm actually on your side however you don't get to leave animals that require care with somebody for whatever amount of time you feel like. At this point since it is a civil matter I would suggest you file in small claims court if they don't respond to a demand letter however I would hardly consider the animals to be stolen since you're the one who created this problem in the first place. I think you are entitled to compensation based on the fair value of the animals in question minus whatever their cost was for feeding and caring for the animals. I think it was bad business for them to take animals with no agreement and to sell the animals as abandoned without notification and a demand for you to pick them up within a certain timeline they're not there to babysit until you get around to it, and I would encourage you not to report them stolen unless you are prepared to suffer the consequences should it bite you on the ass. I will admit I do not know Florida law but at some point even Common Sense should come into play and I think that both sides have a certain amount of wrong in this situation.

 

[thamnophis123]

Reading the string of BS UR posted earlier in this thread about me leaves no doubt that they are dirty little liars. When confronted with their underhanded deeds they erupt in a spasm of accusations and distortions. These are pretty much the sort of behaviors we expect from grifters and crooks, and very much the behaviors I experienced when dealing with the owner about the terminally diseased snakes Underground Reptiles sent me.

They are clever little thieves though, and I am sure - just like sharks on the smell of blood - they knew immediately they had the OP over a barrel. The poor guy made the mistake of trusting. Something you could get away with in my small Iowa town, but a deadly mistake when dealing with the likes of Underground Reptiles.

I have spoken with the owner of Underground Reptiles about the diseased snakes his company shipped to me. He was instantly hysterical, screaming into the phone like a lunatic, shouting down every point I tried to make. At the time, I was only trying to explain to him the incredible damage his company could do to herps (both wild and captive) and herp collections if they did not recognize the highly contagious, always lethal, and untreatable SFD their animals were infected with.

Since then, the have continued to collect snakes from the wild, bring them into their facility where they know the disease could spread, and sell them to unsuspecting customers. So ask yourself - if a guy is willing to do this, is there any doubt he would happily stiff a trusting long time customer out of a couple snakes?

 

[thamnophis123]

Reading the string of BS UR posted earlier in this thread about me leaves no doubt that they are dirty little liars. When confronted with their underhanded deeds they erupt in a spasm of accusations and distortions. These are pretty much the sort of behaviors we expect from grifters and crooks, and very much the behaviors I experienced when dealing with the owner about the terminally diseased snakes Underground Reptiles sent me.

They are clever little thieves though, and I am sure - just like sharks on the smell of blood - they knew immediately they had the OP over a barrel. The poor guy made the mistake of trusting. Something you could get away with in my small Iowa town, but a deadly mistake when dealing with the likes of Underground Reptiles.

I have spoken with the owner of Underground Reptiles about the diseased snakes his company shipped to me. He was instantly hysterical, screaming into the phone like a lunatic, shouting down every point I tried to make. At the time, I was only trying to explain to him the incredible damage his company could do to herps (both wild and captive) and herp collections if they did not recognize the highly contagious, always lethal, and untreatable SFD their animals were infected with.

Since then, the have continued to collect snakes from the wild, bring them into their facility where they know the disease could spread, and sell them to unsuspecting customers. So ask yourself - if a guy is willing to do this, is there any doubt he would happily stiff a trusting long time customer out of a couple snakes?

 

[tlmoon]

I would think UR would put notifications to the OP about considering the snakes to be abandoned in writing. Not a single text or email from UR notifying the OP, really?

I can see how the cobra, having been there for a while, could have gotten sold by an employee by mistake, or something along those lines. This would have been an easy fix - pay the OP a fair price, minus a reasonable boarding fee.

Yes, the OP probably should have set this up more officially with UR, but surely he didn't just "drop off" a couple of venomous animals behind the counter or something. UR must have known he was leaving the animals there and it was on them to take care of arrangements as well. Again, once (from their perspective) the animals were 'abandoned' why on earth wouldn't they send a text/email/certified letter to the OP? Especially with FWS and venomous regulations going on, a business would do this properly and protect itself with documentation.

It looks to me that UR got mixed up and sold the snake by mistake. This could be understandable, a whole facility and probably a bunch of people working there. But instead of making it right, they are digging in and making it all about the OP leaving the snake theres. Even if there is some fault on both sides, you're a business - stuff happens, just do the right thing and move on.

 

[BobO'Booey]

Exactly, if both sides give a little they can at least resolve the problem so that they don't jeopardize any permits that they have and move on and don't be so careless next time

 

[Big Time Reptiles]

Reading the string of BS UR posted earlier in this thread about me leaves no doubt that they are dirty little liars. When confronted with their underhanded deeds they erupt in a spasm of accusations and distortions. These are pretty much the sort of behaviors we expect from grifters and crooks, and very much the behaviors I experienced when dealing with the owner about the terminally diseased snakes Underground Reptiles sent me.

They are clever little thieves though, and I am sure - just like sharks on the smell of blood - they knew immediately they had the OP over a barrel. The poor guy made the mistake of trusting. Something you could get away with in my small Iowa town, but a deadly mistake when dealing with the likes of Underground Reptiles.

I have spoken with the owner of Underground Reptiles about the diseased snakes his company shipped to me. He was instantly hysterical, screaming into the phone like a lunatic, shouting down every point I tried to make. At the time, I was only trying to explain to him the incredible damage his company could do to herps (both wild and captive) and herp collections if they did not recognize the highly contagious, always lethal, and untreatable SFD their animals were infected with.

Since then, the have continued to collect snakes from the wild, bring them into their facility where they know the disease could spread, and sell them to unsuspecting customers. So ask yourself - if a guy is willing to do this, is there any doubt he would happily stiff a trusting long time customer out of a couple snakes?

^^^^Here, Here, Truer words have never been spoken!^^^^

Now my experience: They never sold me a sick snake, they did sell me a wild caught pair of lizards, as captive born imports.

I received the lizards at 10:20 a.m. opened the box, looked at what they sent, immediately repackaged the pair. It's a 25 minute drive from my ranch to town,. I made it in 15 minutes, because the Fed Ex truck was leaving at 11:00 a.m. and back they went to UG.

Unlike most, the owner of UG, would never talk to me, Rian B. was the only one that took my calls, and assured me he would talk to the owner about my refund, this went on for a month, finally I had enough of the BS.

My next phone call to UG was too inform Rian B. I was calling US Fish & Wildlife, with my suspensions. Miraculously my refund for $1100 was returned that day.

Any one dealing with UG, is taking a big chance in my opinion! I'd never deal with them again, in this lifetime.

Lynn Peterson
Big Time Reptiles

 

[JimM]

So who then is to blame for this event falling apart, especially when there were no specific time limits and no written contract laid out?

So because James screwed up by doing this , it makes if fair for UG to steal his snakes ???

 

[Robert Walker]

So because James screwed up by doing this , it makes if fair for UG to steal his snakes ???

It appears you are the only one of us who has reached this conclusion, as I said nothing of the sort.

I asked "who" is responsible for the event falling apart? Hint: The answer is 'both' parties are. I'm fine with someone complaining about another group as long as they also take some of the blame themselves for not having written out the terms of the agreement 'before' having entered into it. This is not a one-sided failure. Both groups are to blame for where they find themselves currently, both parties failed to produce a contract. James has already admitted he failed in this aspect, good. Now if Underground can admit the same thing, perhaps they can come to a resolution and put this behind them.

Without a contract, stealing becomes abandoned and abandoned becomes stealing. This is a matter of perspective as evidenced here. Contracts exist because handshake deals repeatedly fail. Contracts exist because memories dull. Contracts exist for the benefit of both sides. No contract, well then both sides can shed tears in the wind.

 

[JimM]

Hint:[/U] The answer is 'both' parties are.

Doesn't matter WHO is at 'fault' ... what happened to just plain HONESTY ???

It seems that it's getting very rare to find it in this hobby anymore.

 

[Stephenson8011]

Doesn't matter WHO is at 'fault' ... what happened to just plain HONESTY ???

It seems that it's getting very rare to find it in this hobby anymore.

This ^^^


I’ve never had any bad experiences so far since I do a lot of research before I deal with anyone but it does seem to become more and more common

 

[Morticia]

If I were running UGR I'd return the animals (pending they have not all ready sold them...) and just wash my hands of it. Surely such a big company can afford the "loss" of less than a grand to save the headache.

 

[Robert Walker]

1. Doesn't matter WHO is at 'fault' ... what happened to just plain HONESTY ???
2. It seems that it's getting very rare to find it in this hobby anymore.

1. Happy to give you another swing at the logic process of statement #1. Are you trying to convince me/us that "fault" is irrelevant? Fault determines responsibility. If you can't determine who is responsible then how can you determine who is owed compensation? In one breath 'fault doesn't matter', but in the next you label UG as thieves ("for UG to steal his snakes"). That is 'you' finding UG at fault. Apparently 'fault' does matter - as long as it is UG at fault?

2. If it is as rare to find "honesty" in this hobby as some have suggested, then all the more reason to have written out a contract. You can't have it both ways: the world is dishonest --->so no contract--->surprised the world is dishonest.

Apparently UG must have their act together well enough to have maintained a long term customer with a PhD. I believe both parties are smart enough to recognize that they 'both' got themselves in this pickle by not writing out an agreement with specific terms.

 

[Robert Walker]

James -
If $100 was too low of an offer, then what amount is acceptable to you for the cobra?
Perhaps UG can agree to that amount or counter your offer?

 

[Lucille]

Besides the transaction protection for the parties involved conferred by written contracts, I am very concerned that these venomous snakes in Florida were able to be transported and dropped off somewhere without any signature or receipt that would tend to show current possession. If there is no receipt it would seem to erase some incentive for personal responsibility for the safety of others.

 

[Ed Clark]

Rian, do the right thing and pay James a reasonable price for the cobra you are trying to steal from him.

How do you think it effects your business when people are reading posts like this about underground reptiles?

Rian get smart about how you treat customers!

 

[Snake-Queen]

What are the laws in Florida regarding the transportation and sale of venomous? I am having a hard time finding information about it.

 

[Lucille]

Here, to start:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes...ng=&URL=0300-0399/0379/Sections/0379.372.html

 

[Lucille]

http://myfwc.com/license/captive-wildlife/applications/

 

[Lucille]

http://myfwc.com/contact/law-enforcement/