Updates- Hatched Veileds LOTS OF PICS

[Bringerofdoom]

I dont know if this is any relevence to the thread, but sometihng is fishy about a name here

Name : Jack Meholf

Now say that last name several times..... Sounds just like Jack Me-off.. If it is truely his last name i apologize......

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

I dont know if this is any relevence to the thread, but sometihng is fishy about a name here

Name : Jack Meholf

Now say that last name several times..... Sounds just like Jack Me-off.. If it is truely his last name i apologize......

You notice the weirdest things lol

Does look like a real name from this search on the white pages in CA:
http://www.infospace.com/_1_2RD8UT206W37N4__aolwp.aols/white-pages/noresults.htm?kcfg=wpus&otmpl=%2Fwhite-pages%2Fresults.htm&qfm=n&qk=5&top=internal&qname=meholf%2C+jack&qs=ca&searchtype=citystate&qn=meholf&qf=jack&qc=http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67354&goto=newpost

 

[Bringerofdoom]

You notice the weirdest things lol

Does look like a real name from this search on the white pages in CA:
http://www.infospace.com/_1_2RD8UT206W37N4__aolwp.aols/white-pages/noresults.htm?kcfg=wpus&otmpl=%2Fwhite-pages%2Fresults.htm&qfm=n&qk=5&top=internal&qname=meholf%2C+jack&qs=ca&searchtype=citystate&qn=meholf&qf=jack&qc=http://www.infospace.com/_1_2RD8UT2...ca&searchtype=citystate&qn=meholf&qf=jack&qc=

wow, ok it might just be a real name then. Parents can pick the wierdest name combinations....

 

[Chris Anderson]

Wendy,

Yes the sun puts out more UV rays than any of these lights ever will but the difference is forced exposure. Being able to hide under a couple leaves while a high intensity UV output bulb blasts itself into a small tank full of baby chameleons is disasterous. The tank just isn't large enough for one of those bulbs to really work as they should without harming the animals. I'm glad it was only on one side of the tank but I would still be concerned about using it on that cage, especially with babies. Basically you have a spot of sudden high intensity UV radiation and another of none, thats not really a gradient. Outside the chameleon can be anywhere from direct sunlight to broken sunlight within a tree where the rays are tapering off to deep within the tree without much UV. In that cage you don't have the capabilities to really do that effectively. To use that bulb safely with chameleons you need a much larger enclosure where the light can radiate in a larger area (not a concentrated spot), tapper off in the vegitation and tapper off as you get further away from the light in both directions (vertical and horizontal). Just because it is recommended to allow the animal within a certain distance doesn't mean it should be limited such that all of its power is contain in one spot at that distance.

As for your bulb being more complete with higher UVA/B outputs, that really doesn't mean much of anything with regard to its quality for reptiles or specifically for chameleons. For instance, UVA and UVB range between 290-400nm (UVB is from 290-320). The steroid used in D3 photosynthesis is most sensitive to wavelengths between 270-305nm and wavelengths between 315-330nm actually negatively affect this steroid meaning such high levels of UVA and UVB could potentially be terrible. The study I cited that tested the bulbs took this into account and decided that of the bulbs tested, the reptisun 5.0 was the best by far.

So with your bulb, you are taking a huge risk because you don't have any idea what actual wavelengths are being put out and in what concentrations and based on Ferguson's work, you're taking risks with the health of your animals due to the high output levels. Like I said, higher radiance levels may be fine for tortoises, Varanids and other more desert or thicker skinned reptiles but it just isn't the case with captive chameleons in the majority of captive enclosures.

Chris

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

As you can see they had tons of vegetation to hide under and on etc and there were not tons of babies in the tank unless 8 is a ton.

I do not think they were at risk with the gradient they had and being in the tank for 3 days only. They were moved out as soon as I saw each one eat.

The study you cited is 3 years old, based on panthers that come from madagascar not tested for Veileds that are from Saudi Arabia and Yemen and the 5.0 was the "best at the time of the bulbs tetsed" that is why they are continuing to do test after test and create better bulbs.

Panthers and veileds need different basking temps, humidity etc, Veileds are from the Chamaeleo Genius while Panthers are from the Furcifer Genus.

 

[Chris Anderson]

Wendy,

I hardly consider the photos you posted to be adequate vegetation for chameleons under any circumstances but the point of my statement was that your light choice for that enclosure was poor based on the most recent and relevant scientific studies. I'm happy you at least only kept them in that setup for 3 days and only had that light on one side but that doesn't change that there are significantly safer setups that you could have easily used without providing a potentially detrimental situation to the babies.

Yes, I'm WELL aware of where panthers and veileds come from and that they are from different genera. I would, however, disagree that the study is not extremely relevant and that the findings wouldn't probably be close to identicle if conducted on veileds. Also, my information on the UV wave lengths and D3 steriods is general information over reptiles, not limited to chameleons. No similar studies have been done on this bulb and the indications from studies that have been done point toward a need for caution. If you want to argue about your desire to be careless, go ahead but I don't see the point of you doing so. I'm simply recommending that you not be careless with your chameleons as other threads have shown other animals have fallen to.

Chris

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

I had 8 at a time in a 20 gallon high til they ate which was for 1-3 days so I did what I thought was best with more than 100 plant leaves to eat, hide under, climb on etc. Thats alot of vegetation for 8 2.75" chams.

I bought the bulb rated for a more natual value of UVB to UVA the 5.0 has 5% UVB to 30% UVA which is not as natural as the 10 with 10% UVB and 30% UVA.

 

[whitey4311]

OK guys here is the bottom line. None of us have done these experiments and none of us are qualified to make "scientific" decissions other than what has worked for us in the past. I was told MV bulbs were horrible and my Veild is now 4 yrs old and very healthy. I went against the norm and opted for the tech out on the market and it was a sucess. That being said lets look at some numbers and you make your own choices.

Lets think about your chams behaviour inside under a 5.0 bulb and out side at 12 noon. I dont know about you but I see a huge huge difference and like wise I see a huge difference with better UV rated bulbs.

AT 12 noon just about anywhere in the US on avg the UV output of the sun is about 150 microwatts/cm2. My bulb emitts 140 microwatts/cm2 at 12 inches. When my chams are out doors they come to the surface here and there through out the day to bask in the direct sun. This has been repeated many many many times in books as being perhaps the best no nonsense method for raising a healthy cham. All researchers that I have read suggest some level of outdoor exposure to ensure good health. Do not be an idiot and subject your cham to direct UV exposure at these levels 12 hrs a day with no where to run and you wont have a problem.

Based on pure non questinalble data, not hypothesized research, those who use a weak bulb like the 5.0 are altering nature more drastically and that is not arguable in the least. What this bulb emitts and what the sun do are completely on the opposite ends of the scale.

Now based on my set up it best replicates outdoor lighting in that the levels of UV are on the money and there are plenty of shady spots down the 6ft of tree to shelter themselves. My UV light is on the top back edge of the cage where there is a spot for only UV exposure, basking area from the halogen bulb of 85-95 deg, and a middle of the road area where the temps are about 80-85 and there is still some UV exposure. This is all at the top of the cage and the cham still has 95 percent of the cage to roam away from the UV and the basking spot. Look at my pics and you will better understand what I am describing.
I can not understand the thinking that equal levels of sun exposure are horrible and going to give chams tumors unless you stick them in a cage with no where to run and the bulb 5 inches away. Common sense and good practice seems to be the best bet for me and that is what I intend to go with.
Dragonflys go on and use your lamp it is very nice and well worth the money so do not freak out. Take some ideas from a set up like mine that use this type of bulb, or similar, and have fun. There are some people that freak out way to much on this stuff and will not tolerate new tech and base their ideas and arguments on what they have read from some internet site.

I do not aim to discredit anyone here and there is always someone that is bigger bader or knows more in the world. I am not this person and I love learning new ideas but this one I can not figure out.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Chris I followed the set up information on your site except that the author said to use a 2.0 bulb 2-3" up which is a poor choice as of your study cited and I used the better 10.0 and I used a larger tank (24 wide, 17 tall, 12 deep instead of the recommended 24 12 12) to give the babies more room and vegetation, with my larger cage and higher rated bulb I had it 10" above instead of 2" as the article states to make up for the higher rated bulb.

http://www.chameleonnews.com/year2002/nov2002/horgan/first_weeks.html

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Jack I agree, you can only do what you think is the best alternative based on what has worked best for you and other breeders you have personally talked to and I use the MV on my larger 6x3x3' cage too.

There is not alot of good validated information online and a lot what is there is not always true for every keeper or best in all areas and uses so all you can do is whats worked for you and others you trust in the past.

I made personal phone calls to breeders that helped me get my breeders, get them mated, get the eggs hatched etc. I didn;t jsut go buy a couple of veileds and have at it.

I went with their experience, I did choose the 10.0 bulb over the 5.0 since most were using smaller set ups with a 5.0 much much closer or using much larger set ups with a MV.

There is an extensive article on Chris' site that goes into a lot of technical information but no where does it state what bulb and at what distance to use it.
http://www.chameleonnews.com/lighting1.html

 

[Chris Anderson]

Jack,

How does basing bulb use decissions on published data from a scientific study from a reputable chameleon nutritionist and biology professor on his research on the effects of articial UV light in captive chameleons qualify as something read on some internet site? Its hardly "hypothesized research" as you claim when studies have actually been conducted on chameleons with these findings. I really fail to see how you manage to classify years of scientific research as worthless and seem to glorify random chameleon care books written by hobbyists as gold, just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

I'm not saying these bulbs don't have their uses and that if you use them correctly that they can't be good bulbs. I use MV bulbs on my larger enclosures too. My issue is that safe conditions to use them are often misunderstood and this is a prime example. A small fish tank is not one of the situations where these bulbs are suited for safe use. Its exactly what you said: "Do not be an idiot and subject your cham to direct UV exposure at these levels 12 hrs a day with no where to run and you wont have a problem." A tank that size and at that distance from the bulb (at that distance its a concentrated spot of high UV radience levels), regardless of the position of the light in the cage, has an extreme potential for problems. Now, the way you've described your bulb as killing feeder insects and causing burns does make me wonder about if it is being used safely too. You simply shouldn't have burn worries if you are being careful and using equipment in a safe manner for the animals.

You can say that I'm just not open to new technology if you want. You can say I'm freaking out needlessly if you want. You can bash the sources of my rational all you want. The bottom line is that scientific research preformed at scientific institutions and published in scientific peer review journals has indicated that improper use of these high intensity UV bulbs (little putting one 10" above a fish tank with baby chameleons) has the potential to have adverse effects on chameleons that could easily be avoided by use of bulbs that have been proven to be safe and effective in scientific studies and the experiences of many breeders and keepers. Its not just random cr*p published by some hobbyist who wrote a book based on imperical observations and as such, I tend to take it a lot more seriously than any desire to be cutting edge and play with bulbs shown to have dangerous potential based on their levels of UV output.

Wendy,

In her article, Lynda wasn't using a high output UV bulb in a glass tank, true. Studies haven't shown lower output 2.0 bulbs to be as good as the mid range 5.0 but when used properly, they also don't fit into the output known to deminish the life expectancy of your chameleons. While I would agree that a 5.0 would have been better on her enclosures, I don't see using a 2.0 to match the same potential risk as using a 10.0 when using a tank and having the bulbs mounted as close as they are (I still think the intensity of your light in a glass tank, even at your 10" above the tank is going to create a focal spot of high intensity UV rays that can potentially be harmful).

As for the lighting article, if you had read it you would notice that it is the first part of a multiple part article. The second part is still being written and researched (including analysis of bulb outputs like we've been talking about). Please see the last paragraph where is says: "In the next part of this article we’ll look at the most common lighting technologies that we might buy for our chameleon: Fluorescent, Mercury Vapour, Metal Halide etc. We’ll be providing a little information about the amount and kind of light the lamp produces and other relevant issues bearing in mind what we have already discussed here." I will be sure to recommend to the author that light readings on these high intensity lights be taken and discussed as well.

Chris

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Chris if you want to help people why don't you post a good care and info sheet on what is the best to do and use nd how to use it etc.

I did read the 08/04 with the more coming and there is more info on other sites that is way more informative and worded to where most owners can uderstand and some give suggestions of what to use instead of alot of scientific terms, facts and info on lighting that the average owner cannot understand and gives not one suggestion as to what is correct.

So before you jump off and tell people what they are doing wrong, take a stand, write a care sheet, post it on some site, fauna, yours somewhere that can be easily located my owners that gives suggestions as to the proper bulb use and height above the cage. Then you can say you knew this was wrong and did it anyway.

What I did was RIGHT I put the bulb 10" above the highest branch, the chams were not exposed to an unnatural light for an extended period of time and they were provided good vegetation and cover for the 3 days they were in the tank. They were also put in natural sunlight within a period of 1 - 3 days.

Other info on your sites suggest to leave this bulb on for 14 hours at a distance of 2" even with a 2.0 that is too extreme for the small tank that was reccommended. Much more extreme than my 10.0 10" above on for 10 hours with a gradient and an area of no uvb if desired.

I am not sure why you feel the need to try to make others look less intiligent than they are by posting obvious information that really doesn't prove anything.

Its kinda like those 10 researches that say "this causes ***** in mice so it must pertain to humans" and then 10 others say "this causes this in mice and does not pertain to humans" only becuse both are mammals, Im sure they are all correct in their findings on both sides of the debate but people must go on and do what they have found to work for them not for a different person or on a different species than they are working with because every study has 2 sides.

 

[whitey4311]

Chirs after all of this you now use one single word that allows me to agree with you and that was "IMPROPER USE". I felt that you were previously saying that these bulbs are no good as they are. Maybe my point was a little harsh based upon my misuderstading of what you meant and I appologize.

PS disregard the killing insect thing. For some reason that I do not know the exact reason for my silkies were dying once placed into his set up after anout 1-2 hrs. I originally figured it was the UV but then saw them dead when the UV was never even turned on. I think 99% of it was the heat, they are very fragile and die in higher temps that chams like. I think that was all it was, but for sure it was not the UV since it was off and had been off. They seem to live longer in the AM when it is coller is what let me beleive the heat is what killed them.
I guess I can not see your points on this UV topic. I know that you like that one study but somethign tells me if it were repeated again and again there would be different endings. There reall is no way to set up a perfect study either since the health of the cham ect can vary as could many other factors. My basic and remedial observation is that if outdoor keeping is best then why not make indoor keeping as close to the environemts as possible. The weak bulbs just dont cut it. Yes I understand they are safer for small cages to where my bulb would surely kill them but for my particular set up and large ones like mine it works so far. I could be wrong and have dead chams soon but somethign tells me that is doubtfull. They are thriving and I have no issues to date.

PSS Dragonflys you are right on and I wish there were more open people like us around that do not base all thoughts off our favorite single study. Be well and let me know how your chams are doing. PM if you liek and we dont have to deal with all this "I know best". This is why I dreaded joining these sites. My 1911 45 acp gun sites are the same, someone is always superior. Fighting and guns arent the nicest forums either, lol.

 

[JasonDescamps]

Yeah Chris. Why don't you post some care sheets or something istead of taking your own time to publish a e-zine written by chameleon keepers for chameleon keepers that is absolutely full of good information based on actual experience. Or sharing information from scientific studies conducted by one of the few researchers actually studying chameleons in a captive environment for multiple generations. I for one think we need a lot more information based on nothing more than ego and a few months of experience, or better yet based entirely on one book written by someone who has very little actual chameleon experience. So get to work on that please Chris. Thanks

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

Yeah Chris. Why don't you post some care sheets or something istead of taking your own time to publish a e-zine written by chameleon keepers for chameleon keepers that is absolutely full of good information based on actual experience. Or sharing information from scientific studies conducted by one of the few researchers actually studying chameleons in a captive environment for multiple generations. I for one think we need a lot more information based on nothing more than ego and a few months of experience, or better yet based entirely on one book written by someone who has very little actual chameleon experience. So get to work on that please Chris. Thanks

Jason have you actually read the e-zine? Did you read my post above with the link to the set up I used that came from the e-zine?

Most of it is outdated and I followed the e-zine set up for the babies except for the fact that it was outdated info being 3 years old so I used a newer higher grade bulb.

So no Chris don't help anyone by updating info, keep on copying email stories from people and never update the info and keep copying research done by the researchers that is worded in a way that the average person does not understand and keep on not giving suggestions for what is proper to use. But when you think someone has used the wrong bulb tell them and try to degrade them.

I called breeders who have been breeding for 5-7 years, I didn't just sit at a computer and read pages, I didn't just sit and read outdated info, and outdated books. I talked to them myself and I used my best judgement from all I did read online, and the books and the personal converstaions I had.

I have my chams in natural sunlight which is exactly what they need.
I had them in a smaller more controlled tank for 1-3 days until eating was confirmed.
I gave them UVB with a gradient that is obvious in the pics posted.
Instead of using a 2.0 bulb ast 2", I used a 10.0 at 10"

 

[whitey4311]

Good job guys way to pick out the CHAM NAZI I am glad there are people around tiwht a good head on their shoulders.
dragonflys you are correct in what you are doing and I to have made sever phone calls and written emails to vaious people askign for ideas and opinions on subjects. I then take in all the info and try to make sense of it and when I do I ask more questions to affirm my understandings then go with what I think is best. It is not Chris's way so then it must be wrong but in my observations from having tried all the options he merely talks about I can clearly see what is best.
Your outdoor keeping is great and there is nothing better. Funny fact that I wrote and I will re state it is that these bulbs produce very close amts of UV as does the sun at 12 noon. These bulbs best replicate what outdoor use can offer which is the ultimate goal in the end of all this BS. It makes perfect sense to me and I took into consideration pure non argumental data, not my single most afvorite study that supports what I think.
Again the sun produces 150 microwatts at noon and these bulbs, or at least mystic bulbs, produce 140 microwatts at 12 inches. This means 2 things to me, there is more usable UV further deep into a lage cage, and it simulates the sun the closest as compared to any bulb out there to date. Now consider a 5.0 bulb that puts off about 15 microwatts all day long. Sure it is usable UV but the cham must be no more than 12 incehs away meaning that UV levels are always decreasing with distance to nearly nothing. This is the most un-natural replication of nature I can think of. But not to say I dont use it because for my baby cage it is a must since anythign more will cause damage. My 2 ft tall cage with my 5 month baby cham can not handle the intense UV. THis is why my chams go outdoors about 2 times a week to ensure they are getting all they need. When my baby graduates to his big cage then I feel more comforatble knowing he has all he needs and outdoor use is only for added benefits.
Be well you guys and keep in touch with what is going on I would love to see some more pics. I gathe up some new ones too.

PS go read my cricket recipe I got from a breader by strong suggestion. It works great and is much better then the bottle stuff.

 

[JasonDescamps]

Jason have you actually read the e-zine? Did you read my post above with the link to the set up I used that came from the e-zine?

Most of it is outdated and I followed the e-zine set up for the babies except for the fact that it was outdated info being 3 years old so I used a newer higher grade bulb.

Yes I sure did. I read every article in the e-zine and have written a few myself.

So you used it for your setup, but it is outdated? Okay.

I would think that without any actual applied chameleon experience it would be difficult to call anything outdated. Would I recommend a 2.0 bulb for chams? Nope, I wouldn't. But I also wouldn't recommend many things that European keepers do and they are pretty successful with it.

So no Chris don't help anyone by updating info, keep on copying email stories from people and never update the info and keep copying research done by the researchers that is worded in a way that the average person does not understand and keep on not giving suggestions for what is proper to use. But when you think someone has used the wrong bulb tell them and try to degrade them.

I can ssure you that the e-zine is not "copying email stories", as I stated it is written by chameleon keepers based on their experience, many of them have well over a decade of experience breeding several species. Not just one clutch of veileds.

And yes, some of that research "is worded in a way that the average person does not understand" but I read Chris' post and it seems to me that he was trying to explain it in a way that most people could understand. Maybe it was still to complex. And he did offer suggestions for use in a few posts.

No one tried to degrade you. You were provided information and you chose to react to it the way you did. That is not degrading, that is just you getting upset when your methods were questioned.

I called breeders who have been breeding for 5-7 years, I didn't just sit at a computer and read pages, I didn't just sit and read outdated info, and outdated books. I talked to them myself and I used my best judgement from all I did read online, and the books and the personal converstaions I had.

I am happy that you spoke with breeders who have 5-7 years of experience. There are alot of people who happen to reproduce veileds that I wouldn't exactly classify as a chameleon breeder. And while first hand information is great, applying new research to existing methods is how we go to the point that we are today.

The bottom line is you can do whatever you want. If you want to use that bulb that way, use it. I couldn't care any less. It is totally up to you as an individual to decide if you want to use the experience provided by people who have had years of experience and tons of success. I can't make you change your mind, and neither can Chris. But to cite one source of information such as a bulb manufacturer or re-seller as good information and then dismiss the findings of a well known chameleon researcher is just foolish. But hey, you can justify it however you need to.

 

[JasonDescamps]

It is not Chris's way so then it must be wrong but in my observations from having tried all the options he merely talks about I can clearly see what is best.

Can you read? I'm just curious. Where exactly did he say that it was wrong? He said "Now, higher intensity bulbs with longer radience distances are great when the animals are provided a sufficient UV gradient. In the vast majority of enclosures, they are NOT and as a result, use of these high level irradience bulbs is dangerous, regardless of whatever preceived color improvement you might think you see."

and

"The issue I'm discussing is the forced exposure to high UV output bulbs without proper light gradients as in the tank. I simply would recommend avoiding those high UV output bulbs except in extremely large enclosures."

A 20 gallon aquarium is not a large enclosure nor will a distance of 10" provide a gradient of UVB. He never said you have to do things his way. You both got your panties in a wad because you were being questioned.

Those mystic bulbs may be great, I've never used them. I have used many other types of high output bulbs with my chameleons in large enclosures with great success. One thing that I find funny about the mystic bulbs is the fact that when they first were sold the retailer suggested use for normal lighting regimes, ie. 12hrs per day. It was only after the bulbs had been on the market for several weeks did they update their information to reflect the correct usage. Perhaps they had access to some sort of scientific findings suggesting the use of high intesity bulbs for short amounts of time. I wonder where a person could find a study like that?

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

I am happy that you spoke with breeders who have 5-7 years of experience. There are alot of people who happen to reproduce veileds that I wouldn't exactly classify as a chameleon breeder. And while first hand information is great, applying new research to existing methods is how we go to the point that we are today.

The bottom line is you can do whatever you want. If you want to use that bulb that way, use it. I couldn't care any less. It is totally up to you as an individual to decide if you want to use the experience provided by people who have had years of experience and tons of success. I can't make you change your mind, and neither can Chris. But to cite one source of information such as a bulb manufacturer or re-seller as good information and then dismiss the findings of a well known chameleon researcher is just foolish. But hey, you can justify it however you need to.

Jason,

That is exactly the point, new research has proven that the 2.0 bulb is not satisfactory for UVB output.

My chams are OUTSIDE in natural sunlight, the bulb was on a baby cage for a couple of days as they hatched so if the UVB was too high it was for a few days, extended high UVB can cause problems as stated in many many research articles and there was no extended use. Most of the chams ate on day 2, some on day one and a very few on day 3 so they were in there for less than 3 days.

Im not dismissing anything or anyone, I chose the higher rated bulb as the 5.0 in the research shows to have been the best alternative at the time and was not anywhere close to natural sunlight. I used (not dismissed) that information to make my decision to buy and use a better bulb for that first day or so of life in a starter tank before they were moved to natural sunlight like they need.

 

[dragonflyreptiles]

You both got your panties in a wad because you were being questioned.

Jason,

Can you read? My panties were not in a wad as you can see if you read this thread:

Thanks Chris, I have a Reptisun 10 on them in the house, pretty nice bulb. They are now outside on the nice days in a screen cage so they are getting the real thing too.

Wendy,

Careful, studies have shown that extended exposure to high UVB radience levels are detrimental to reproductivity in chams. That bulb produces more than the standard levels of UVB captive chams are exposed to and in your setup, does not allow for any type of UVB gradient for the babies to naturally regulate their exposure. With the standard 5.0 tube, the radience distance is shorter than in this bulb allowing for better self regulation and the intensity is less minimizing the negative effects of high levels of UV radiation while still providing UVB levels that have shown themselves to be sufficient under most circumstances. Just something to keep in mind. I'm sure in time those bulbs will be used in more of these studies and a better idea of their usefulness and pitfalls with chams will become apparent but at the very least, in the mean time I'd make sure a gradient is available to avoid potential complications.

Chris

Chris clearly states that extended exposure to high UVB radience levels are detrimental to reproductivity in chams and there was no extended use so I have no reason to worry.

Thanks for the info, also those pics are over 2 weeks old from when they hatched and I sorted them in the tank for the first few days until they were eating, they are all in screen cages now and outside during the day.

When they were in the tank that few days the light was tilted so that they could get in the area they needed, there is alot of focus towards the left side and alot less on the right from the angle of the bulb. And lots of plants for them to hide under.

Again I thanked Chris for his help and explained that they were outside in natural light.

Not sure where I was questioned about anything, Chris gave me information and I explained my set up (based on his site) and my reason for using newer more suitable UVB and natural sunlight etc.

And again thanks for all of the info from Chris, Jack and Jason, if the bulb was too strong its good that it was only in use for a max of 3 days.