Upstate Exotics (BAD GUY)

[Uffern]

Hmmmm. Very good questions. I can't believe I didn't think of it before. I had a woman who bought one of my dragons call me every thrid week after she got it telling me it was not eating and was seizing. It was the third time before I figured out it was the pesticide treatments in her house. The introduction of some toxin seems extremely plausible to me.

 

[BrianB]

Good questions, Ritchie.

How much time elapsed before the snake started seizing? I was under the impression it was later the same night?

If not, then I see Upscale's point, and the tone of the IM is certainly a LOT more understandable.

I also seem to have missed the fact that the buyer took the snakes over to someone else's house?? If that's the case, then that's just plain bad practice.

Thanks Ritchie, and Richard. It seems I may have read that post wrong, or forgotten some things from the last time I read this thread.

If the timing is as stated and the guy hauled an animal that just went through shipping stress to a friend's house, then I'll apologize for the remarks on Upscale's attitude, as it seems they have every right to be suspicious. I'd like my crow with some catsup please. Or is that ketchup? Who named that stuff, anyway?

 

[HerpVenue]

Brian your time line

1. he recieved snakes (seemed okay)
2. He brought them to a friends house that same day/night.
3. It wasn't until the next afternoon (and in some posts the next night) that he found the snakes to be twitching.
4. after that one afternoon (night) they were okay.

How much time elapsed before the snake started seizing?

sounds to be around 24 hours.

 

[gracie]

Upstate, Please stop ingnoring me!!!!

I noticed that you agreed to refund Dallas a full refund, including shipping AND vet bills. Why then would you not agree to give me a full refund? Was my claim not good enough? I never lied to you once and was very patient and polite when conversing with you. And I'd still like you to explain the email where you told me the monitor is CB.

Your name has already been destroyed so answering my questions shouldn't do you much more damage. And by not answering me you just prove to everyone reading your lack of care for your customers and unprofessionality (is that a word? lol) Not that that needs to be proved and more then it has.

 

[dqreps]

ok...

This is all just to much to go over. Remember not too read into things guys ok. It was less than 24hrs that i complained and IM them, not long at all. They were not introduced into any pesticieds or whatever, nothing harmful at all. You are assuming their must he something wrong on this end. Why dont you realize that maybe something was wrong on Upstate exotics end and they are not being truthful about this or maybe just did not see it? In any event, the effects showed in less than 24hrs and it is on VIDEO! No one has seem to want to address this very valid poiint, just keep putting me down, doubting me when i have facts in hand. But then, since this is a fact and you cant argue the snakes severe adverse actions in the video, then of course, you will discuss wether or not it was sick before or after i recieved. Well, it was obviously before considering how fast after i recieved the snakes these symptoms were showing. Maybe they were just too cold before to show these symptoms. Then once they warmed up, their bodies started acting violently, i dont know. Regardless, anything anyone says about what they "think" may have happened is just speculation that is it. In spite of anything that has happended, they told me they would take the snakes back WITHOUT the vet bill and did not. I am not gonna go to the vet just to have them say they will not pay it once their is a diagnosis and then i will be out that too. i am not gonna risk that.
No matter what happened, their tone was unexceptable as a seller and they treated my unfairly and if i was making it all up from the start without even talking to anyone else or having a clue about this disease i was talking about. THEY WILL HAVE A TAPE IN THEIR BOX TOMORROW AND UPSTATE EXOTICS, IF YOU HAVE ANY HONOR YOU WILL COME ON HERE AND STATE HONESTLY WHAT YOU SEE. All it comes down to is that they keep dodging this and dodging that and requesting this and requesting that, i do not play by their silly rules but the rules of the game. The rules that say customer satisfaction is 1#! I wish all people would keep an open mind and not speculate. Go with facts, not what you "think" may have happened after they arrived. i am not gonna introduce a supposed healthy boa(s) into a possible lethal situation. Upstate Exotics has no knowledge however and who knows what happened on their end.

Dallas Quarles

P.S. their is no way i would ever send these snakes back now to them without the refund first. They would just kept both. Their word has proved to mean nothing, it is that simple.

 

[dqreps]

ALSO....

I put the snakes where i put them AFTER my discovery earlier in the day, so NO nothing could have happened to them their if this was already going on. They were at a freinds house WHO DOES NOT HAVE HERPS THERE! read it, i NEVER said that their were other herps in that house. They were put their to be out of my other collections range.

Dallas Quarles

 

[The BoidSmith]

Dqreps (8:09:19 PM): at any rate, i cant keep these, i cant take a chance at infecting the rest of the bunch, i am gonna go upstairs in a minute and check the others out throughly. i would like to return them monday though and get a refund under the circumstances. i like the boas VERY much but cant risk this......

 

[dqreps]

i hope that you realize...

that i meant their was no way i was gonna introduce these snakes to the rest of my colony at home so they could get infected? their was no others with them at that time.

Dallas Quarles

 

[HerpVenue]

Listen...I am not pointing fingers... YOU DESERVE A REFUND......PERIOD. You were unhappy PERIOD...

I am now just trying to educate you. That way the next time you go cutting down on someone's herping experience or lack thereof you won't look too much like a fool.

It was less than 24hrs that i complained and IM them, not long at all.

My point exactly. Symptoms came on suddenly.

They were not introduced into any pesticieds or whatever, nothing harmful at all.

I did not say you introduced them to these things. I say they were exposed to some kind of toxin that adversly affected their neurological functions

You are assuming their must he something wrong on this end.

and likewise....you are assuming there isn't.

Why dont you realize that maybe something was wrong on Upstate exotics end and they are not being truthful about this or maybe just did not see it?

With the timeline you provided and with the symptoms you provided....I doubt it came from their end.

In any event, the effects showed in less than 24hrs and it is on VIDEO!

You proved my point again...and this time it is on video. It was to quick to be a disease. You have proof on video that they were reacting to environmental factors they were subjected to.

No one has seem to want to address this very valid poiint

I just did. Good Point by the way. I am glad you have evidence that support my arguement.

But then, since this is a fact and you cant argue the snakes severe adverse actions in the video, then of course, you will discuss wether or not it was sick before or after i recieved. Well, it was obviously before considering how fast after i recieved the snakes these symptoms were showing

you are half right. The symptoms came on quick. But they came on at your end. But I already went over this and you are now refusing good information that is being spewed unto you.

I put the snakes where i put them AFTER my discovery earlier in the day, so NO nothing could have happened to them their if this was already going on. They were at a freinds house WHO DOES NOT HAVE HERPS THERE! read it, i NEVER said that their were other herps in that house. They were put their to be out of my other collections range.

This has a time line of.
1. you got the snakes
2. you found them ALL to be seizing and jerking.
3. that is when you decided to bring them to your friends house so that you won't infect your collection.

That is weird...because in another post...you were at your friends house using the computer....and you had to go "upstairs" to see what the other snakes were doing. Timeline
1. They were at your friends house.
2. Then you discovered them to be seizing and twitching.

Two different timelines buddy. Which one is the truth.

i am sure you are just a cowering fool hiding behind your computer pointing fingers at everybody else because you are jealous that you yourself do not have a business to run

I know I am nobody and that you are the Big and mighty Dallas whoever.......But I suggest you pay attention to what I am telling you. Disease wise....The symptoms were to quick to appear and were likewise to quick to disappear. Not only that....the symptoms dissapeared quickly on their own without medical intervention. Environmental wise...all the "facts" you have pointed out points to environmental factors on your end.



UpstateExotics.
1. Your customer is unsatisfied and deserves a refund.
BUT
They won't send the snakes unless you send them money first.
(KInda like. asking for a refund on your New TV ....but you promise to return it next week)

2. On the link you will get a lot of information on IBD. I suggest you print it out and take it to court with you. http://www.ritchiereptiles.homestead.com/Care_Sheets.html

3. You should also get yourself a copy of "What's Wrong With My Snake?" written by John Rossi D.V.M., M.A. and Roxanne Rossi. Print out Page 118 and take it with you to court. Also if you can.....take a vet with you. Preferably one that deals with herps.
Then counter sue for all the stuff he was gonna sue you for. Psychological trauma etc etc etc. The vet can verify what I am saying. What am I saying? If this is a disese....It was a very quick progression. TOO quick. Not only that...It was temporary or should I say....they got over the symptoms just as fast as when they came down with it...The vet can also verify that these sypmtoms and the speed in which they progressed are also more likely the cause of an exposure to a toxin of somekind ie paint, varnish, vapona, pest strips, ivermectin or metronidazole, insecticides, oven cleaners and other cleaning agents.

 

[dqreps]

gee ritchie

For someone that wants to educate me and NOT make me look like a fool, you do a heck of a job trying too. Are you a vet? i dont think you are. See, the snakes could have easily contracted whatever they got BEFORE they left, maybe even a week before. AND THEN when they got here, the symptoms showed, plain and simple. I did nothing but place them in rubbermaid containers and give them a little heat. i do not and have not used and form of pesticided or any toxins in a LONG LONG time so knowing this, what could i have done? the snakes were COLD when they arrived, maybe when they came out of this dormant state, it triggered something, i dont know ritchie but do not say i had anything to do with it. I DO know my stuff and NEVER have a prob like this, explain why this would mysteriosly happen all of the sudden. The book you referred to, i have it. it has an albino burm with its mouth being checked out on the front, i also have several very expensive editions that are pointed towards vetinary medicne etc. I am not an amature and as i told you, i did not stick around to check out the snakes after they came. i did not look at them till the next day, it even says that in the IMS and emails right. well, how do we know they did not start having these violent reactions as soon as they warmed up? you or i do not know they did not but i would not say that without seeing it with my own eyes. but you are speculating so so will i ok. Do your homeword and know their are gray areas, not everything is set in stone ok. Odd things happen sometime for no apparent reason but then someone like you wants to beleive they have every answer. I am not pointing fingers at you, just educating you to the facts.

Fact one, there was NO toxins, pesticides etc present
Fact two, the disease, problem etc could have started WHO KNOWS HOW MANY DAYS BEFORE. So since you dont know when, it automatically started here? No, that is not how it works.
Fact three, in their lethargic state, their is no reason not to wonder if this is how they were before they were sent out and once the cold hit and dropped their body temps, etc they undoubtably would not still be acting like this. The snakes could barely flicker their tongue, let along convulsate all over the place. Then once the warmed up, the onset possibly continued and then passed once it run its course. OR maybe it just happened to hit once they arrived. I dont know, i am not a vet. NO ONE on this board can say for sure. BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS THERE IS NO TOXINS AVAILABLE WHERE THESE HERPS WERE TO CAUSE THIS, NONE!
UNLESS you are a vet then DO NOT act like you know the facts. i know none of this will offend you since you only offer the same to me.

Thanks,
Dallas Quarles

 

[Linda Demadura]

What if the snakes aren't sick??

What if the snakes aren't actually sick??
What if it could have been Hypothermia. It was mentioned the snakes were "chilled".
I don't know how snakes react when they have hyopthermia, but I have seen a dog with hypothermia. It seemed normal once it was warmed up, about 16 hours later it did that jerky thing. It couldn't stand and this "odd" behavior continued for about 24 hours. Anyway reading this post made me think of that dog and I thought I'd mention it.

 

[Stardust]

Alison,

Bottom line, the guy was not happy, regardless of what he said after.
Is this really worth your reputation?
Offer the refund, if he takes it, lick your wounds and go on, you will look good.
If he says the snakes are now fine, and wants to keep them, well you made the offer and end of story.
He is sending me a copy of the tape too. As said above, it could be that the snakes were cold, if that is the case then he would be out the four you sent that are healthy, he would not be able to buy from you again, and people on here may look at him differently.
The problem with the 24 hr thing, is people jump the gun because the are afraid if they dont do it in that time they are out of luck.
You can keep fighting this and have it go on, but what does it serve?
I say get rid of the headache and go on.

 

[HerpVenue]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I put the snakes where i put them AFTER my discovery earlier in the day, so NO nothing could have happened to them their if this was already going on. They were at a freinds house WHO DOES NOT HAVE HERPS THERE! read it, i NEVER said that their were other herps in that house. They were put their to be out of my other collections range.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This has a time line of.
1. you got the snakes
2. you found them ALL to be seizing and jerking.
3. that is when you decided to bring them to your friends house so that you won't infect your collection.

That is weird...because in another post...you were at your friends house using the computer....and you had to go "upstairs" to check out the other snakes.. Timeline
1. They were at your friends house.
2. Then you discovered them to be seizing and twitching.

Two different timelines buddy. Which one is the truth.



How long did the symptoms last?
Did they show the symptoms at your house then you decided to take them to your friends house?
What is the real timeline?
when did you take them to your friends house?
When did you first see the symptoms?

Your story does not mesh well.
Stop and think and maybe make up a new one or something.

They sent me sick snakes. every idiot knows you only know if it IBD by a blood test, i told these morons that many times by email and AIM. BUT their are symptoms and any person who says so in defending them is a complete idiot and has no right discussing herps.

any person would also now that if it was IBD,....they would still be showing signs. Any person would also know that if it was somekind of infection.....that they would still be showing signs. Any half brained person can also see that if they were temporarily exposed to something....then they will TEMPORARILY show the aforemetnioned signs.


You say you are not a vet and are only saying it ONLY looks like IBD.
Well I am not a vet either....and I am only saying that the symptoms look like an adverse reaction to some kind of environmetal factor.


Here is a fact we can agree on. You deserve a refund
Here is another fact we can also agree on. your timeline is not consitent....Your story is not consistent.

Fact one, there was NO toxins, pesticides etc present

so you have never used bug spray. you vhave never used vapona. you have never used cleaning agents. okay. What about your friend? because in another timeline...they did not exhibit the symptoms until they were at your friends house.

Fact two, the disease, problem etc could have started WHO KNOWS HOW MANY DAYS BEFORE.

This is correct. but if it is a disease.....they would still be showing signs and sypmtoms. ARE THEY STILL SHOWING THESE SIGNS AND SYMPTOMS OR DID THEY MIRACULOUSLY GET HEALED.

Fact three, in their lethargic state, their is no reason not to wonder if this is how they were before they were sent out and once the cold hit and dropped their body temps, etc they undoubtably would not still be acting like this. The snakes could barely flicker their tongue, let along convulsate all over the place. Then once the warmed up, the onset possibly continued and then passed once it run its course.

A neurological disease will not just run its course without medical intervention.



Upstate. Just refund him his money.

Dallas. Just have your girlfriend take them to the vet like you say you would. Oh wait...in another story you do not have a vet. sorry I forgot. Too many stories to keep track of.


To myself. You have shown holes on both sides. You have shown different timelines. You have shown One party with mutliple stories. Mission accomplished. Move on.

Good bye

 

[dqreps]

Ritchie....

I would LOVE to move on if you would stop running your mouth man. Stick to the facts at hand instead of trying to pick apart everything. one, the time line does not matter so get off your high horse with that, nuff said. The facts are facts and apparently you have them mixed up. I DO NOT really blame you because IM's, emails etc can be taken in different ways and it is easily confused. As far as me saying i would have my girlfrend take the snakes to the vet and then you saying i said i do not have a vet Well you are right and WRONG both. I do not have a vet close, NO this is what i believe i stated and definatly meant ok. so drop that one. so yes i or her could drive 2hrs to a somewhat qualified vet. BUT NO it is not fair to either of us to have to do that when the money should have been refunded in the first place. just as they changed thier mind once they promised a refund, i am using my better judgment than to drive 2hrs and get for nothing but to maybe get ripped off for more money i will never see. that is it, i would not do anything unless i got my refund FIRST, period. dont you think they kind of killed the trust thing when they went back on their word and did not want to take back the animals the first time. they said, i do not need a vet statement just send it back, this was the first time, they should not have changed their minds no matter what. it is bad biz, period. Ritchie you can certainly be objective without coming off like a jerk. I know you dont see your faults but you DO come off like you are trying to belittle me and insult me and make yourself seem as if you know all. Maybe this is not what you are trying to do but it sure looks that way. i am HAPPY you think i do deserve a refund but you are reading into things way too much. UNDERSTAND you have only see seen a piece of the pie. Not all the IM or emails and it is really not for you to see anyway. i just added to the post from the begining to let others know, even you man. As much as you irratate the hell out of me, i would not wish this on you and i think if most were in my place they would. you just come off as being very rude and overbearing. your opinion is fine AND WELCOMED but you act like YOU are one that has a reason to put ME down and not expect anything back. or maybe you do but you enjoy the confrontation, at least admit that. If you were in my shoes you might do things different, i wont argue that, but you would still be as upset as me nonetheless. am i correct? I have learned that people (such as yourself) can easily read into things and take them the wrong way. It sucks because i really have done nothing wronge. AND NOT, they were not exposed to anything ok bro, no! Yes everyone has things in their house but if that is the case why is it that everyone else's herps have not dropped dead or gone into a jerking frenzy? they were not introduced to anything harmful! yes i keep cleaning supplies etc in the house away from them, and no i have not used any insecticides at all in a long time. and neither has my bud.
i should have known that as soon as i came to this board people would start being judgmental and reading into things, speculating. I GUESS I DID NOT think this would happen since i was the one that got taken. i thought their would be some sympaty and some happy people for me sharing this. i know better now, believe me, i will not share anything like this again and i will keep it to myself and let my lawyers, myself etc deal with it properly. Ritchie and all that nicely or viciously protested anything i said or put me down, thank you. you taught me a valuable lesson and for that i am in debted to you all. peace

Dallas Quarles

 

[gracie]

{B]Dallas,[/B]

I'm very happy you shared you experience with Sal and Alison of Upstate Exotics. I completely believe you and I feel you deserve a full refund. No matter how much people flame on you it still shows how bad Upstates business practices are. No matter if it's IBD or not, snakes aren't supposed to jerk like that so there is obviously something wrond with them. I know how Upstate tries to twist things around and get out of things so I know where you are comming from. I don't personally agree with your lying about Robyn at ProExotics but YOU are the customer and need to be treated like one. Unfortunetly, no business will ever send you your money back before you send the animal(s) no matter how much you don't trust them. I think that Upstate just could NOT afford to rip you off by keeping both snakes and money so I think it's safe for you to send the snakes back before getting the money.

Diana Mason

 

[Seamus Haley]

They sent me sick snakes. every idiot knows you only know if it IBD by a blood test, i told these morons that many times by email and AIM. BUT their are symptoms and any person who says so in defending them is a complete idiot and has no right discussing herps.

Huh... And here I thought the only way to really tell with any degree of certainty that an animal was infected with IBD was to perform a necropsy...

Guess Dallas, being on the cutting edge of vetrinary medicine has invented a technique that allows it to be performed prior to death... He's likely only days away from a complete cure.

Thank you Dallas, for halting one of the nastiest conditions that it's possible for boids to develop and shoving herpetological vetrinary sciences into a new era.

Yours sincerely,
A complete idiot who has no right discussing herps,

 

[Seamus Haley]

Whoops... best to just ignore the above post, I read Dallas' statements wrong...

every idiot knows you only know if it IBD by a blood test

I agree, every idiot knows that for a fact...

Hey Dallas, do you know that for a fact?

 

[Linda Demadura]

This is what I found on blood tests for IBD

Here's some info on blood tests for IBD:

"Frequently asked questions:

Q: Can the disease be diagnosed in live snakes?

A: Yes...through blood testing ("For hematologic and plasma biochemical determinations, 0.6 ml of blood was placed in each of three microtainer tubes containing lithium heparin. All samples were submitted for hematological and plasma biochemical determinations within 30 min after collection. Whole blood examination included RBC, WBC, differential WBC, and determination of PCV, and Hb concentrations. Plasma biochemical analyses included determination of concentrations of sodium, potassium, chloride, carbon dioxide, urea nitrogen (BUN), creatinine, calcium, glucose, phosphorus, total bilirubin, cholesterol, uric acid, total protein, albumin, globulin, alkaline phosphatase, SGOT, SGPT. For comparative purposes, clinically affected boa constrictors were arbitrarily categorized as either acutely affected (<2 months following onset of signs) or chronically affected (>2 months following onset).

Acutely affected snakes had leukocytosis, relative lymphocytosis, lower total protein and globulin values, and significantly higher SGOT values than did chronically affected snakes.

Here's data on the acutely affected (n=6, out of a study group of 15; Schumacher, et al.)

RBC
0.7
+/- 0.1

Hemoglobin
7.6
1.2

PCV
22.3
4.1

WBC
13,733
6,639

Heterophils
19.7
13.3

Lymphocytes
46.8
20.5

Monocytes
3.8
2.4

Eosinophils
0.2
0.4

Basophils
3.2
6.4

Azurophils
23.3
7.4

To determine the actual presence or absence of inclusion bodies requires biopsies of organ tissue for analysis."

Now to me that last sentence says, "you need a necropsy to be 100% certian if an animal does or doesn't have IBD."

Now if someone didn't know that much about IBD they might think there's a blood test that's 100% accurate, even though that's not the case. That last sentence is easy to miss if you're thinking a blood test is the "best" way to diagnose IBD. I just thought I'd add this, because the way people are making jokes about a "blood test" it seems they don't know this bit of "info/misinfo" is out there.
Take Care

 

[Linda Demadura]

Here's where I found that info.

http://www.anapsid.org/ibd.html

 

[dqreps]

Yes, Seimen, i do...

You can test it by blood test as the person above stated. I did not say it is 100% accurate and when i stated that was the only way, i was wrong. Sometimes i get ahead of myself, i have to keep reminding myself that some people (unlike myself) like to pick apart everyones statements and bash them for it. So i said wrong yes, but this is ONE of the ways even though it may not be 100% accurate. But i DO know this for a fact because this is how my freinds snakes was diagnosed. they took a blood sample and sent it away to a labratory. So to say you CANT test for it like this is WRONG seimen. If you want to say it may not always be 100% accurate however, you are correct. A condom is not 100% effective but humans see this as 1# most efficient form of "safety" when having sex. Also, if it is to be diagnosed on a live snake, YOU CANT DO A NEOCROPSY CAN YOU SEIMEN!? So what is the next best thing. Thank you for point this out though. Your input is most welcome because i am not an expert, you never are. There is ALWAYS more to learn, nuff said.

Dallas Quarles