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Info US GLOBAL EXOTICS SPCA RAID

You're talking to someone who wants the import trade changed. And, incidently, been in a slaughterhouse (focused on pigs...it freaking stank). And cleaned some of my own food.

As impractical as I think it is, I would LOVE the import system to be curtailed and changed, both for humane reasons and because it's the seamy side of the hobby, and opens us up to bad PR.
 
Dean, the bacterial infection that we are treating in the fire skinks is not something that would have come in with wc animals. It is husbandry related and has been present in these animals for a long time.

But yes, some of it did come in on the wc animals, and this is one thing that the industry as a community needs to examine! You just pass that kind of problem off on the person who buys the animal or allow those illnesses and parasites to be spread to other animals in your facility?? I know people who buy and sell wild caught animals. They are much smaller scale than USGE, but they treat the wc animals before they put them on the market. Shouldn't that be a standard practice? It might cost a little more in the short term, but will raise the worth of the animals that you sell and create not only customer appreciation but will keep people like the SPCA off your back.

Donna,
What I mean is we dont know where the infections or problems started from as we dont have any proof. I am sure that a lot of the problems COULD have started with USGE but as proof would dictate, we shouldnt assume that said infection didnt start before or after the raid.
 
You're talking to someone who wants the import trade changed. And, incidently, been in a slaughterhouse (focused on pigs...it freaking stank). And cleaned some of my own food.

As impractical as I think it is, I would LOVE the import system to be curtailed and changed, both for humane reasons and because it's the seamy side of the hobby, and opens us up to bad PR.

I hear ya. And knowing the whole process by which meat ends up as that red stuff in cellophane that guys like to BBQ, I became a vegetarian. ;)

Dean, you are right, there is no way to know exactly where and how and when some of these illnesses started, but no one, including the SPCA did anything about it until the fire skinks went septicemic. That takes time and consistently bad husbandry. The ones that I am rehabbing are on their second round of antibiotics. I hate to see them suffer like this and wish that changes could be made so that more don't have to. But the good news is that they are showing signs of improvement! :D
 
I love the way that Rich took this straight down the line. So much is being blamed on USG that could have just showed up on his door and he got caught with it. The other part that I hate is when rescue places say that "animals are dumped" on them. NO they are NOT. YOU make that choice to do the rescue work or not. USG didn't show up at your door and demand you take in their animals. Its like the mom that has 12 kids and then complains that she has so much work to do, no one made her have this many kids, she made that choice. peta and spca had planned this raid for a long time yet CHOSE to make no plans for the animals after the seize and THAT is where the BLAME game should start. NO matter what the shame is that spca gets by with their part in the fiasco and no one seems to hold their feet to the fire for what they do.
 
peta and the spca only know how to kill animals and wow the company mistreadted there animals wich sucks but its only to help the ban on all exotics uncle sam will only be happy when everyone has a cat adog and 2 1/2 kids and when there done with pets they will move on to guns or something else step back and look does it hurt you when i smoak or chose not to wear my seatbelt no but there all laws now and soon theyll move on to somethimg else the goverment is out of control the only new law needed is the no new laws law sory this is alittle off topic but its late im tierd and it pisses me off that someone who owns a building cant say you can smoke in there and you can have this or that if you pay us
 
trying to understand

First off let me say I am very very niave to everything that is going on. I like to think the best of everyone.....sometimes that leads to being very disappointed. I just got into reptiles this last year at the ripe age of 42...thanks to my 9 year old son. Since then I have fallen in love. I read all of the posts...(whew...took me a long time). I have to say what I saw on the video was horrible. It made me sick. Was some of exaggerated...sure...but you cannot deny some of it. Especially the talking parts.

Maybe these huge wholesalers should be should be closed. While I understand the need for new bloodlines...that is not the wholesale business. For the large breeders and the small that want new bloodlines ok. But when you are just dealing with turnover animals it seems that they are not being taken care of. I get the whole...profit....not putting too much money into the animal and not recouping it....they are still animals that need to be cared for with respect. I do at sometime plan on breeding my snakes...never become a large scale thing though. But I have to say I will never become so complacent with an animals life as what I saw. I learned early on what CBB when I was buying my first snake from a store I ensured that is what they dealt with. Since then we have bought from a local breeder and I will continue that way in the future.

Now for my two cents on rehabbing these animals and charging adoption fees. Actually it is probably worth about a 1/2...lol. Anyways....I was lucky enough to rescue my very first BP a few days ago. From the moment my hubby and I had a discussion about taking him in...to the moment we said yes...we spent about $250- just on basic needs. Thermostat...heat tape...bin....etc. This is not even including the vet visit if we so need to. Now I am certainly not going to adopt him out....but I can see why fees are charged. If only to recoup some of the money that you put in. When we adopted our puppy from a no kill shelter....they charged me $75...let me tell you...I am fairly certain they did not make any $$ on that. He was nuetered, all of his shots, his first month of food was supplied, his leash, his collar, and toys. If I were to buy that and supply that myself, it would of been much more than $75.

Now lets say that someone called me for these animals in question....I would totally take them and do the same thing...spend the same money...probably more. We love animals ....we do not want to see anything suffer. And if you take on rescuing ....then you take the responsibility of doing it right. I would hope to recoup my cash on doing this...if I didn't that well...you still walk away feeling better about yourself. Good karma so to speak.

Ok.....wow...I don't post much but clearly when I do I seem to go on ...sorry!!! :rolleyes: Again don't flame me...this is just my thoughts as someone that is new into the industry.
 
First off let me say I am very very niave to everything that is going on. I like to think the best of everyone.....sometimes that leads to being very disappointed. I just got into reptiles this last year at the ripe age of 42...thanks to my 9 year old son. Since then I have fallen in love. I read all of the posts...(whew...took me a long time). I have to say what I saw on the video was horrible. It made me sick. Was some of exaggerated...sure...but you cannot deny some of it. Especially the talking parts.

Maybe these huge wholesalers should be should be closed. While I understand the need for new bloodlines...that is not the wholesale business. For the large breeders and the small that want new bloodlines ok. But when you are just dealing with turnover animals it seems that they are not being taken care of. I get the whole...profit....not putting too much money into the animal and not recouping it....they are still animals that need to be cared for with respect. I do at sometime plan on breeding my snakes...never become a large scale thing though. But I have to say I will never become so complacent with an animals life as what I saw. I learned early on what CBB when I was buying my first snake from a store I ensured that is what they dealt with. Since then we have bought from a local breeder and I will continue that way in the future.

Now for my two cents on rehabbing these animals and charging adoption fees. Actually it is probably worth about a 1/2...lol. Anyways....I was lucky enough to rescue my very first BP a few days ago. From the moment my hubby and I had a discussion about taking him in...to the moment we said yes...we spent about $250- just on basic needs. Thermostat...heat tape...bin....etc. This is not even including the vet visit if we so need to. Now I am certainly not going to adopt him out....but I can see why fees are charged. If only to recoup some of the money that you put in. When we adopted our puppy from a no kill shelter....they charged me $75...let me tell you...I am fairly certain they did not make any $$ on that. He was nuetered, all of his shots, his first month of food was supplied, his leash, his collar, and toys. If I were to buy that and supply that myself, it would of been much more than $75.

Now lets say that someone called me for these animals in question....I would totally take them and do the same thing...spend the same money...probably more. We love animals ....we do not want to see anything suffer. And if you take on rescuing ....then you take the responsibility of doing it right. I would hope to recoup my cash on doing this...if I didn't that well...you still walk away feeling better about yourself. Good karma so to speak.

Ok.....wow...I don't post much but clearly when I do I seem to go on ...sorry!!! :rolleyes: Again don't flame me...this is just my thoughts as someone that is new into the industry.

You bought your first Ball Python from a pet store which, simply tells us that you bought from someone who utilizes a wholesaler, who in turn, buys imported animals. Not trying to flame you here but you really have to understand EXACTLY what it is that you are saying... "I buy from a pet store but I do not support importation of animals that I buy".

As for comparing reptile rescue to cat and dog rescues is, well, comparing cats to dogs. Cat and dog rescues normally do not adopt out animals unaltered. If the ASPCA or HSUS called you to adopt out reptiles, would you spend the money, if the vet didnt do it for free for you, to alter every animal that you take in? I would highly doubt it.

As for the money you spent on housing your adopted ball python... I can almost certainly guarantee you that most of these so-called rescues are not housing their animals the same way that you are. They are using racks, tubs, used tanks if they have them, et al. There is no right or wrong way here, its just how you like to maximize your space and money.

No one really disputes that what went on at USGE was horrble. But, the few of us that do take the unpopular road here dont place 100% fault with USGE are looking for a more deeper answer as to why it happened and what can be changed to prevent it from happening again.

If you read all of the posts, if they had a total of 8 employees, one being a spy and one being an idiot asking questions above his pay grade... it sounds like USGEs biggest mistake was in HR dept of their company. They obviously didnt know how to hire people. I am sure that two of the other employees were the husband and wife that were honestly too "big" to clean cages as they were in business to make money.

Most business owners that I know start a business to make money. This inlcudes wholesalers as well. Let me ask you it this way. If you had a wholesale business of glass products. You order 10000 glass dishes and 20% come in broken. You paid 1.00 for them and you sell them for 4.50 to Wal Mart who, in turn, sells them 10.99. In order for you to fix the 20% broken glass, you have to pay, on average 25.00 to fix. Do you fix them? Do you follow the terms of service of the exporter from another country to get credit on your broken product?

Say you decide to get credit from the exporter. What do you do with all the broken glass? Do you throw it all away prior to you getting your credit? If the TOS is to ship back the broken glass to them for proof, do you not keep it around until you ship it back.

Again, we are dictating to a business who is in business to make money, that he also must care for his product, even at a loss. What should have happened is maybe he should have just euthanized the injured or sick animals and threw the carcasses in the trash dumpster. Would that have been more acceptable to the general population? Even though its done, I dont think it would have helped. And if you dont think its done by pet vendors in most all areas of the trade, that would be a naive thought.
 
response

well I guess I should have clarified...that the store that I bought my snake from gets them from local breeders. If there are none here locally then they go through a breeder in CA. So no....my snake did not come from a wholesaler...unless they are outright lying..which I find hard to believe because this is a huge issue to the store owner and the person that taught me about this in the first place.

I really don't think you can compare animals to broken dishes....that is apples to car parts for lack of better words. I think this company had faaaaaaaaaaarrrr more problems than their HR department. Making jokes about a snake that is that bad......probably ranks up there in the worst to me. In my personal opinion if this is how a wholesaler runs a place and takes care of their animals in their possesion...for however long that is....then they should not be in business. It doesn't do this hobby any good what so ever!! Maybe I put a little too much faith in ppl but I hardly imagine the big BP breeders treating their reptiles like this.

As for preventing it in the future...hire more ppl.....to keep the animals healthy....have a vet on call that works for you. All of this costs lots of money...hence...raising the cost of the reptile. For me...I will pay more to know that this animal was taken care of...healthy and in good condition. Maybe it is just me....but I would imagine that allot of ppl would think the same.

As for the rescue companies.... ....I have no idea how they treat their rescues you are totally right. I know I house my snakes in rack...I feel they like that better than viv's and for me...it seems a much healthier environment for them as well as it lets me store more in a smaller area. I would hope that if you are in the business of rescuing animals that you in fact care about their well being and do whatever it takes. Again maybe that is me being niave.
 
annnddd....lol

just so you know....I am not some smooooooooo....off the street. Granted I no longer work...but I have run multi-million dollar businesses, I have consulted fortune 500 and 1000 companies on business practices.

I just don't want you to think I am some random stay at home mom with a fluffy dog in her purse. I do understand business symantics.......I understand why there are animals in the freezer until you get your refunds. I am not talking about that when we discuss this company. This is about animal cruelty and not taking responsibility for these animals when they are in your care.
 
Michelle, although I understand what you are thinking, I'd like to point out the reality of the world. I'm a retailer. I own a little pet store that specializes in reptiles. I breed a lot of my own snakes and lizards, but I can't do it all. So I buy from wholesalers. Many of them. Why? First, like I said, I can't possibly produce all the types of animals I sell, although I do try. Second, most wholesalers, because of the nature of the business buy in large quantities at low prices. They lay out huge sums of money, money I can't spend. Why? Because I don't have the facilities to hold 200 iguanas at a time. I can hold 6 at a time. Wholesalers buy from breeders, in huge lots. In turn, they get a much better price then I do for these animals because my storage capacity is small. So I get better prices from wholesalers then I can if I buy directly from the breeder........sometimes anyway. I can then pass these better prices on to you, the consumer.

Imports are part of the business. I imported 100 Rankin's Dragons because I got them at a low price. By the time I paid for them, shipping, and broker fees, I still made out pretty good. But housing 100 baby Rankin's dragons (captive bred, by the way) was a huge chore, and one that I don't look forward to doing again. I'd rather go to a wholesaler and buy 10 at a time. When I run out I can buy 10 more.

Without wholesalers there would not be any pet stores that sell animals. This is just what USHS and PETA want. They want to kill off my source of animals that I can sell to people like you. Most ball pythons, morphs included, come from wholesalers that buy in large groups from US breeders. Kill off the wholesalers, and there goes a major source of ball pythons. Sure, I can buy directly from the breeder, usually at a higher price, and I can and pass that higher price to you. This will of course mean my sales will drop, making things harder on pet stores to stay in the black. Plus the pain in the butt of buying from dozens of sources every week, instead of 5 or 6. Shipping alone will jack up prices. Pet stores, no matter what you believe, don't make a ton of money. We're not in it for the money. If I was, I'd be doing something much more profitable. I was a jeweler at one time, and I can tell you I was much better off financially then I am now. Jewelry doesn't die, nor does it need food and water and staff to keep it clean. Jewelry doesn't mind if it's not shipped overnight. Most pet stores make little or nothing off the animals they sell (at least reptiles). By the time you pay for the overhead to keep them alive and thriving, you're lucky to break even. It's the stuff you sell with the animals that makes profit, tanks, cages, heaters, bowls, bedding, food, etc. But without the animals, no one's going to buy the supplies. Don't fall for the animals rights bull :censored:. They want to take away my livelihood, and after they're done with me, they will be at your door, taking every living animal you own.

Anyway, sorry for the ramble, but I thought you'd like to know.
 
Michelle, I posted my response before I saw your responses. I did not intend to offend you. Sorry if I did.
 
well I guess I should have clarified...that the store that I bought my snake from gets them from local breeders. If there are none here locally then they go through a breeder in CA. So no....my snake did not come from a wholesaler...unless they are outright lying..which I find hard to believe because this is a huge issue to the store owner and the person that taught me about this in the first place.

I really don't think you can compare animals to broken dishes....that is apples to car parts for lack of better words. I think this company had faaaaaaaaaaarrrr more problems than their HR department. Making jokes about a snake that is that bad......probably ranks up there in the worst to me. In my personal opinion if this is how a wholesaler runs a place and takes care of their animals in their possesion...for however long that is....then they should not be in business. It doesn't do this hobby any good what so ever!! Maybe I put a little too much faith in ppl but I hardly imagine the big BP breeders treating their reptiles like this.

As for preventing it in the future...hire more ppl.....to keep the animals healthy....have a vet on call that works for you. All of this costs lots of money...hence...raising the cost of the reptile. For me...I will pay more to know that this animal was taken care of...healthy and in good condition. Maybe it is just me....but I would imagine that allot of ppl would think the same.

As for the rescue companies.... ....I have no idea how they treat their rescues you are totally right. I know I house my snakes in rack...I feel they like that better than viv's and for me...it seems a much healthier environment for them as well as it lets me store more in a smaller area. I would hope that if you are in the business of rescuing animals that you in fact care about their well being and do whatever it takes. Again maybe that is me being niave.

I can guarantee you that the big breeders in the pet trade euthanize unwanted animals. One told me that he was considering euthanizing a ton of bps for the simple fact that they cannot raise or buy enough rats to feed all of them. Again, this is part of the trade.

As for the comparison, the comparison is based on business practice so yes, it DOES make sense. You arent going to buy a product for 1.00 to spend 40.00 on its repair to sell it for 3.00. That doesnt make sense in ANY business. You have to understand that this was, in fact, a business. Thats why there are tons of breeders and very few wholesalers. You even try to get breeders to wholesale their animals and they wont do it because it saturates the market now. Its cheaper and more profitable in the long run to euthanize the excess.

I am not a big breeder but I have been around the biggest of them. I have also been a buyer for the pet trade industry in the past. The wholesale business is wholesale101, quantity and margin. You want to change the standard that the wholesale pet trade follows. Thats a different issue all together.

As for running multi-million dollar companies, well, you have to look at running a wholesale operation the same way. If you didnt, you wouldnt be in business any longer than your first shipment.

I, also, have run multi-million dollar corps up until last yr. I was part of the wireless movement when you paid for the minutes. I created policy and procedures that are SOP in 3 of the top 5 wireless companies in the USA. So yes, I have a general understanding of basic business practice as well as the next person.

Once you realize that this is a business just like any other wholesale business, then it will make sense.
 
On a side note, Ken Foose should charge admission to go to his pet store. He has, by far, one of the best selections for a Exotic Pet store that I have seen. When people visit Las Vegas and want to take their children to the zoo, they really mean that they want to go to Exotics Pets. I lived in Vegas and couldnt even find the zoo, and, when I did... I surely wasnt going there.
 
Michelle, I posted my response before I saw your responses. I did not intend to offend you. Sorry if I did.

No you did not offend me at all!! And I totally get that you don't make the money on the animals.....you make it more on the stuff that goes with it as well as hopefully the return customers for the feeders. In fact....I am not sure of too many ppl that own smaller pet stores that are "wealthy"...lol...unfortunately. There just needs to be something that can be done so that issues like this do not continue to arise. It doesn't do the reptile industry or any pet industry well and just fuels the fire. I hate to see things like this.....I teach my child NOT to be like this...and here is an industry that seems to do it and we should unite???? I could never get behind that. I also would never kill my snakes because I have too many normals....let me tell you...too many or not....business or not...I would give them to you first. So clearly...I would not be liked in the industry...lol. Now if something is sick...of course....if it cannot be helped by all means it should be put down.



To strictly...there are A LOT of poor business practices out there when it comes to live animals.........and if I know who participates in that I don't have to buy from those companies!! I know who I am and what I will and will not do....money or no money....I would get out of the business before I did some of those things in the video.
 
On a side note, Ken Foose should charge admission to go to his pet store. He has, by far, one of the best selections for a Exotic Pet store that I have seen. When people visit Las Vegas and want to take their children to the zoo, they really mean that they want to go to Exotics Pets. I lived in Vegas and couldnt even find the zoo, and, when I did... I surely wasnt going there.

Well looks like I might have to take a drive someday and see the zoo!! :eek:
 
No you did not offend me at all!! And I totally get that you don't make the money on the animals.....you make it more on the stuff that goes with it as well as hopefully the return customers for the feeders. In fact....I am not sure of too many ppl that own smaller pet stores that are "wealthy"...lol...unfortunately. There just needs to be something that can be done so that issues like this do not continue to arise. It doesn't do the reptile industry or any pet industry well and just fuels the fire. I hate to see things like this.....I teach my child NOT to be like this...and here is an industry that seems to do it and we should unite???? I could never get behind that. I also would never kill my snakes because I have too many normals....let me tell you...too many or not....business or not...I would give them to you first. So clearly...I would not be liked in the industry...lol. Now if something is sick...of course....if it cannot be helped by all means it should be put down.



To strictly...there are A LOT of poor business practices out there when it comes to live animals.........and if I know who participates in that I don't have to buy from those companies!! I know who I am and what I will and will not do....money or no money....I would get out of the business before I did some of those things in the video.

Okay. I am confused here. What did the video ACTUALLY show them doing? All I saw in the video were animals clearly not in a state to sell. I didnt see them in the video at all. I DID hear them say things but I didnt see them do one thing.

You are letting your emotions dictate what you are seeing. You saw a Wallaby on the ground dying, but, you didnt see anyone do anything to it. You saw a Hedgehog with it foot gnawed off, yet again, no one there physically taking the foot off. Yes, the video WAS horrible. But... That video didnt show anyone doing anything. And, the biggest question here is did these animals come in this way.

The HSUS has a TV commercial with all sorts of messed up dogs and cats. Does that mean that they DID that to them? Or, did they RECEIVE those cats and dogs that way.
 
Thank you very much. We try real hard to make the store the best we can. Now, on a side note. Michelle, being that you are an experienced businesswoman, you know for a fact that there is someplace that sucks in EVERY business sector. Whether it's auto dealerships, food companies, pet stores, animal wholesalers or rug shampooers. I've been in this business all my life, in zoos, wholesale, breeder, retail, you name it. And I can honestly say that I know a lot of people in this field, mom and pop store owners, field researchers, wholesales, commercial breeders, field collectors of animals and tons of hobbiests. I have found this diverse group to be honest, hard working folks who all have the same thing in common, the love of animals and the love of doing what they do for a living. Yes, there are assholes in our trade. Yes, there are some who should be selling used cars instead of animals. There always have been, and always will. But that's a very, very small percentage, much less I think then in most other fields. I'm proud of what I do, and I'm proud of the people I work with, breeder, wholesaler, importers. They all care. If they don't, I won't do business with them (and you know who you are, 'cause I've told you so). You won't find a better group to be in the company of. I'm happy to say that most of the people I deal with are friends who I have a great deal of respect for. I'm happy with the company I keep, and the people I do business with. One bad example does not represent the entire industry. Well, except for banks, but I regress
 
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