Info US GLOBAL EXOTICS SPCA RAID

[deborahbroadus]

You are comparing apples to oranges. A family dog is a part of the family and should be treated as such, there is love an affection between the dog and owners family. Animals that were brought in from another country for resale are not beloved pets, they are inventory, there is no loving affection between inventory and a human being. Animals that come in from some of the third world countries are often times in bad shape before they get here. I would guess that you have never been in an importers facility before. It isn't profitable to spend a lot of money on vet care for cheap animals. Iguanas, for example, they cost roughly $1.00 each for the importer. Why would an importer spend $50.00 on an iguana vet bill when they sell them for $2.50? Again, I do not like to see animals die, but from a business point of view you have to draw the line somewhere. Excessive vet bills would put all importers out of business. A business is in business to make money.

The survival rate of imported animals as a whole is much greater then the survival rate of animals in the wild.

People want cheap, that is just the way it is. Without importation of some of the species that are brought in, the cost would go way up, hurting pet stores as well as the consumer. A lot of animals that are brought in are not bred in captivity here in the states, or if they are they are bred by hobbiest that do it for fun because they lose money after all of the expenses are added up for the care of their breeders.

It's weird what some people call inhumane. A lizard that costs $1.00 dies and you are up in arms, but you can go to your local department store and buy clothes that came from a third world country, where children are like slave labor, who work 12 hours a day or more for what we call pocket change. So you can buy clothes made by people living and working in filth, and being exploited so you can have cheap clothes, but that is alright.

Instead of focusing on a $1.00 iguana, how about trying to help the people that are considered slave labor? Or is it because people can justify buying cheap clothes for themselves and their families, after all you buy a lot more clothes in your life time then you buy animals.

Again, people want cheap. If those same clothes were made in the states, a shirt that now costs $5.00 would cost $20.00. It's amazing at what people are willing to turn their back on and what they won't. Hey, whatever suits your needs, right?

What would happen to retail stores if they couldn't buy these cheap clothes?

What would happen to the consumer if they had to spend a considerable amout more for their clothing?

It's the same with animals. I have never heard anyone say that the importation of animals was pretty.

Global should have every right to those animals.

If you were not there then you really don't know the truth, so people should not be so quick to judge.

I am not defending Global here, maybe they were at fault in some cases, I don't know, I wasn't there. But all people make mistakes, some bigger then others. Regardless of what the case may be, they should have gotten their animals back and given another chance.

When people ask, where did the animals go and the responce is, to an undisclosed location. There are reasons for that. One of them is because they more then likely aren't getting propper care there either. No rescue group is capible of taking in the amount of animals that were confiscated, therefore, if you don't know where they are, you cannot see the conditions they are in by there so called rescuers.

Brian Dierking

One bad deed does not justify the other, and it does no good to try and cast aspersions on those others who are simply trying to do what they can because of a situation CAUSED BY GLOBAL. (Whatever happens, whatever blame gets passed around...rational people will remember the cause of the whole mess).

IMO, there is really..absolutely never any kind of acceptable rationalization for animals with no legs left without Vet treatment, or even put down, dead animals laying around, and big animals dying in misery. I do not care if he's a importer, exporter, trader, smuggler or Johnny-come-lately. (the offered supposition that the PETA spy killed them all, doesn't really wash, because there were still other workers in there...what where THEY doing while bodies were left long enough to become bloated?)

I am sure that many of us are not judging. Personally, I'll leave it up to the judge to give his verdict, he is the one that has all the facts available and the ability to make a unbiased judgement based on those facts.

Global will have plenty of opportunity (are they even BACK yet?) to provide Vet statements, food receipts, care schedules, autopsy schedules, receipts for shipping dead bodies back/communications regarding said shipping, reasons for so many dead bodies in one tub or another...so I feel confident that the judge can handle the situation.

 

[albinoball]

You are the one comparing apples to oranges with the slavery to animal abuse. No human being will ever have the right to treat one animal as less than another simply because of the cost. You sir, are an uncaring imbecile if you can even begin to justify not giving an iguana medical care simply because it only costs one dollar. There were also $2,000 wallabies going without treatment if you want to base it on price. And lets not forget that although maybe you are one of those people who views reptiles the same as clothing, some of us keep our reptiles as if they are part of the family. You are extremely dense to even begin to justify their actions. I am not sure where along the lines of your life you got the idea that it is alright to mistreat animals and that we should all not buy clothes because child slaves make them. That is the only apple and oranges comparing going on here, and you honestly just made yourself look even stupider.

 

[JG1153]

The survival rate of imported animals as a whole is much greater then the survival rate of animals in the wild.

Brian Dierking

Really(As sarcastic as it could possibly sound)? Would you please be so kind as to provide the scientific journal articles where you got this info from(National Enquirer articles don't count)? I wonder how all those animals out there have managed to survive in their natural environments for all those thousands or even millions of years without people providing care for them in captivity and more importantly all the stress that come with it prior to captivity? LOL, I'm sorry I have to come back here and act like an ss again but that is the most retarded thing I've heard in a while and I just have to call B.S. on this.

 

[KelliH]

You are the one comparing apples to oranges with the slavery to animal abuse. No human being will ever have the right to treat one animal as less than another simply because of the cost. You sir, are an uncaring imbecile if you can even begin to justify not giving an iguana medical care simply because it only costs one dollar. There were also $2,000 wallabies going without treatment if you want to base it on price. And lets not forget that although maybe you are one of those people who views reptiles the same as clothing, some of us keep our reptiles as if they are part of the family. You are extremely dense to even begin to justify their actions. I am not sure where along the lines of your life you got the idea that it is alright to mistreat animals and that we should all not buy clothes because child slaves make them. That is the only apple and oranges comparing going on here, and you honestly just made yourself look even stupider.

Do you believe that sick chickens at a poultry ranch are treated humanely and given proper vet care? What about pigs at a pork farm? Not to mention the cattle that we feast on each day here in the US. Do you eat meat?

 

[albinoball]

I eat poultry and fish and only free range poultry.

 

[brd7666]

You are the one comparing apples to oranges with the slavery to animal abuse. No human being will ever have the right to treat one animal as less than another simply because of the cost. You sir, are an uncaring imbecile if you can even begin to justify not giving an iguana medical care simply because it only costs one dollar. There were also $2,000 wallabies going without treatment if you want to base it on price. And lets not forget that although maybe you are one of those people who views reptiles the same as clothing, some of us keep our reptiles as if they are part of the family. You are extremely dense to even begin to justify their actions. I am not sure where along the lines of your life you got the idea that it is alright to mistreat animals and that we should all not buy clothes because child slaves make them. That is the only apple and oranges comparing going on here, and you honestly just made yourself look even stupider.

I am not going to get into an argument over this, but I have not made myself look stupid in any way. I have tried to explain the reality of the business and how and why things are done the way they are.

If animals are dead then they should be removed and disposed of properly. If an animal is missing a leg, someone might still buy that animal for whatever reason and that could include being a feeder. If an animal is sick and they are trying to help the animal themselves, that is fine, they are still trying to help it. If they do absolutly nothing then that is wrong. From a business point of view, a business cannot spend $50.00 an a $1.00 animal, they just can't. Maybe that is wrong, but it just isn't practicle. Yes it is a life, but it is also a business that is trying to make money.

From a business point of view, the value of the animal is what determines the extent of medical treatment, if any. Now in my opinion a $2000.00 animal should get some medical attention if something is wrong with it. Saving an animal like that could still be profitable. Spending $50.00 on an iguana is not profitable.

I have said that I don't like to see animals die. I have never said that it is o.k. for animals to die. What I have said is how a things are looked at from a business point of view.

I have also said that I am not defending Global.

There are hobbiest and there are businesses that buy, sell, and breed animals. A hobbiest does it because it is something they enjoy and maybe make a few bucks at. A business has to run things in an effeciant way so they make a profit because that is their livelyhood. No business can profit if they spend more money then they bring in.

I have been in several importers facilities, and have seen something dead just about every time I have gone. Maybe Global was way out of line, could very well be, I wasn't there. I have seen pics, I even posted one of the links to pics in this thread so people could see them. From the pictures that I saw, things did not look good for Global. There were excessive dead animals, I have never been in a place of business that had that many dead animals.

Global should still get their animals back. Good people learn from their mistakes, and bad people go on making the same mistakes. This could have made Global an industry role model if they were given the chance. People diserve second chances, because it can make them better people and it can make them do the right thing.

The reality of something may not be a warm and cozy feeling. As long as animals are imported, some of them will die and it is not necessarily the fault of the importer. Many times animals are under weight and sick before they even get packaged up for shipment. The shipping process can stress animals out and make them even worse. It's not american businesses that in general don't care, it's the people in the third world countries that ship the animals over here. Animal care in some of the other countries is very bad, then the businesses over here get stuck with animals that might not even be able to be saved. Just because a vet isn't called doesn't mean they aren't trying to save the animal.

If someone doesn't like something, then they should do what they can to make it better. That doesn't mean stop it, but find better ways to do it.

 

[brd7666]

Since chickens were brought up, watch this video. I eat chicken, in fact I had chicken last night for dinner. This is a reality video. It is not all cozy and warm.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/01/chicks-being-ground-up-al_n_273652.html

 

[polasian]

Animals that were brought in from another country for resale are not beloved pets, they are inventory, there is no loving affection between inventory and a human being.

It isn't profitable to spend a lot of money on vet care for cheap animals. Iguanas, for example, they cost roughly $1.00 each for the importer. Why would an importer spend $50.00 on an iguana vet bill when they sell them for $2.50? Again, I do not like to see animals die, but from a business point of view you have to draw the line somewhere. Excessive vet bills would put all importers out of business.

From a business point of view, a business cannot spend $50.00 an a $1.00 animal, they just can't. Maybe that is wrong, but it just isn't practicle. Yes it is a life, but it is also a business that is trying to make money.

I have tried to explain the reality of the business and how and why things are done the way they are.

A handful of peoples actions, that stem from your sad interpretation of "reality," is exactly one of the main reasons why this community is now being threatened.

Again, people want cheap.

A business is in business to make money.

There is a BIG difference between "cheap" and "inexpensive." Right about now, I'm confident that US Global Exotics are wishing they had spent that extra $100 or so for that Wallaby's care. Instead, however they decided to be "cheap." Its no different that with ANY OTHER business...if you cut corners then you not only hurt your business, but the entire market as well.

Spending $50.00 on an iguana is not profitable.

Until, of course, SPCA shows up at your door step. Its like that saying for people who don't want to deal with a banks checking fees and so forth.
"It seems like a good idea to keep your money under your mattress...until your house burns down."

 

[JG1153]

Do you believe that sick chickens at a poultry ranch are treated humanely and given proper vet care? What about pigs at a pork farm? Not to mention the cattle that we feast on each day here in the US. Do you eat meat?

Kelli I believe they do because they're regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. I don't know about how much vet care they get but they certainly get basic care and are not neglected. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the government doesn't want bad publicity from people like PETA so they make sure the animals are at least being given appropriate and clean food water and living spaces. The other thing is that since these animals are going to feed people they are watched pretty carefully because the government doesn't want to end up with a bunch of sick, angry, ready to sue, people.

I can tell you that when I worked for USFWS there was a time we got a call at a construction site going on at a river. When the water was removed from a section of the river to do the construction work there was a small (2.5 feet in diameter) pool of water left and all these fish had been trapped there. well all these fish weren't even native species of fish they were all Plecostomus (armored catfish) which are an exotic invasive species. We ended up removing about four 35gallon trash containers full of these fish from this pool and when we got back to the USFW facility we weren't allowed to just leave them out in the sun to let them die or stomp or smack them to kill them because this could be construed as animal abuse. We had to humanly euthanize all those fish before we could dispose of them. This was all done out of the public's eye and only the few (3-4 people) involved know about this incident so it could have been just as easy to let those invasive fish roast in the heat and no one would have known but the government definitely wanted to cover it's back so I seriously doubt that pig and chicken ranches are abusing their animals because Uncle Sam is watching them and they in turn are being watched by people like PETA and the media. Maybe I'm wrong and probably this isn't the way things are handled everywhere but at least from my experience this is what I can tell you.

 

[WebSlave]

Is anyone else coming to the conclusion that the importation of wild caught animals will be coming to an end VERY SOON simply because it will be impossible for them to comply with the conflicting requirements everyone will be demanding of them?

 

[albinoball]

^^^ I certainly hope wild caught animals will not be imported any longer.

 

[Magic Merlin]

"Wild caught".....this is one reason I became a breeder.....to stop the death of 100s so that 1 survives to be sold to a hobbiest. This thread has got me questioning who is more evil, the importers/smugglers or people who preach the gospil of Brian Dierking. Brian, in the longrun, spending a few dollars up front for basic animal care will produce thousands in the back end when people will pay top dollar for a pet that is healthy and happy. BTW, showing videos of animal cruelty within the poultry, canine, or beef industry does not condone the horror that Global subjected their animals to......just because someone bigger is doing it does not mean it is anymore legal or justifiable.

 

[elago]

Ahem.

Kelli I believe they do because they're regulated by the Food and Drug Administration. I don't know about how much vet care they get but they certainly get basic care and are not neglected. A lot of it has to do with the fact that the government doesn't want bad publicity from people like PETA so they make sure the animals are at least being given appropriate and clean food water and living spaces. The other thing is that since these animals are going to feed people they are watched pretty carefully because the government doesn't want to end up with a bunch of sick, angry, ready to sue, people.

I can tell you that when I worked for USFWS there was a time we got a call at a construction site going on at a river. When the water was removed from a section of the river to do the construction work there was a small (2.5 feet in diameter) pool of water left and all these fish had been trapped there. well all these fish weren't even native species of fish they were all Plecostomus (armored catfish) which are an exotic invasive species. We ended up removing about four 35gallon trash containers full of these fish from this pool and when we got back to the USFW facility we weren't allowed to just leave them out in the sun to let them die or stomp or smack them to kill them because this could be construed as animal abuse. We had to humanly euthanize all those fish before we could dispose of them. This was all done out of the public's eye and only the few (3-4 people) involved know about this incident so it could have been just as easy to let those invasive fish roast in the heat and no one would have known but the government definitely wanted to cover it's back so I seriously doubt that pig and chicken ranches are abusing their animals because Uncle Sam is watching them and they in turn are being watched by people like PETA and the media. Maybe I'm wrong and probably this isn't the way things are handled everywhere but at least from my experience this is what I can tell you.

Obviously you didn't watch this video before you posted this

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_273652.html

Super humane FDA involvement there!


To albinoball- we've been down this road already in this thread. Importing is a crucial part of the reptile industry if for no other reason than to have FRESH GENETICS in the animals commonly bred in the hobby. Where do you think all these morphs of all these different animals came from? Without fresh blood CB animals over time enter into a genetic bottleneck and lower quality animals are produced.

EXAMPLE:
Why do you think WC chameleons are so sought after? After several generations of captive breeding, veiled chameleons, for instance, top out at lower sizes and females have a lower percentage rate of eggs hatching (and subsequently smaller more fragile babies when they do hatch). You see second rate breeders all the time offering "adult male" veileds that are 15"- this is a result of that bottleneck (WC male veileds can reach 23-24"- you want a chameleon or CHAMELEON?). The animals get smaller and smaller through subsequent generations until the lines are garbage unless FRESH BLOOD (aka WC genetics) is introduced into the bloodlines.

Without importing ALL of the existing non-native projects in the industry WOULD NOT EXIST, and yes that applies to ball pythons as well, albino, co-dom, or otherwise.

I work with a lot of imported direct animals myself, but on a much smaller scale than USG did, so I have time to dedicate to acclimation and treatment of animals when necessary. Don't lump "importers" together as people who don't care about the animals; there is a difference between an importer and a clearing house. Some people are qualified to take care of animals appropriately and provide adequate housing, and frankly some importers do care about the animals and the conditions they live in; especially for those who are in the industry to make an honest living.

Regardless of anyone's stance on CB or WC, the fact remains that without the initial importation of the species there would be no individuals of that available in the states, CB or otherwise. If you have a python, boa, gecko, or chameleon, even if it is CB 20 generations down, ultimately it came from a WC animal that was IMPORTED however long ago. To take a stand against WC, especially as reptile owner, is downright NAIVE.

Rich, you're right- that seems to be where the industry is headed. People aren't going to realize the repercussions of what this means until it is too late, and the only available animals are going to be field caught native herps and captive bred indigenous wildlife as non-native species are eventually going to be weeded out from our homes and collections.

Just my .02.

 

[elago]

Reiterating my point,

"Wild caught".....this is one reason I became a breeder.....to stop the death of 100s so that 1 survives to be sold to a hobbiest. This thread has got me questioning who is more evil, the importers/smugglers or people who preach the gospil of Brian Dierking. Brian, in the longrun, spending a few dollars up front for basic animal care will produce thousands in the back end when people will pay top dollar for a pet that is healthy and happy. BTW, showing videos of animal cruelty within the poultry, canine, or beef industry does not condone the horror that Global subjected their animals to......just because someone bigger is doing it does not mean it is anymore legal or justifiable.

The only reason you have anything to breed at all is because someone imported it years ago for you to get started, whether it was 5 or 50 years ago.

 

[Magic Merlin]

The only reason you have anything to breed at all is because someone imported it years ago for you to get started, whether it was 5 or 50 years ago.

It is now time to stop! I got an idea, ding ding ding, how about breeding the animals in their country of origin and then importing the healthy offspring to the US or, at the very least, adjusting the WC to captivity in their original country and then shipping them "properly" to us.

 

[elago]

Um,

It is now time to stop! I got an idea, ding ding ding, how about breeding the animals in their country of origin and then importing the healthy offspring to the US or, at the very least, adjusting the WC to captivity in their original country and then shipping them "properly" to us.

They already do! Where do you think thousands of CH babies in the trade come from? CH balls? CH baby savannahs? These animals aren't WC, they are CH from WC females, and make their way into collections just like yours after you purchase them at a local reptile expo.

 

[deborahbroadus]

Is anyone else coming to the conclusion that the importation of wild caught animals will be coming to an end VERY SOON simply because it will be impossible for them to comply with the conflicting requirements everyone will be demanding of them?

Rich, I usually pay attention when you say something because I have yet to catch you posting illogical assumptions and rationales. thumbsup:

That being said, apart from Global and the issues its facing right now. Can YOU explain the importance (if it's important) for importation/exportation to continue?

Can you explain if it's worth animals living in misery, dying by the thousands, so that some can get rich and others can play catch up, because those others are trying to get their investments back because these 1.00 animals that are imported here end up costing 10K by time they are passed on to the consumer.

 

[Lynn]

With the US Global raid being done and over what is going to keep them from coming in our houses or the reptile shows and taking all our reptiles.. This has me very worried. are.

 

[WebSlave]

Rich, I usually pay attention when you say something because I have yet to catch you posting illogical assumptions and rationales. thumbsup:

That being said, apart from Global and the issues its facing right now. Can YOU explain the importance (if it's important) for importation/exportation to continue?

Can you explain if it's worth animals living in misery, dying by the thousands, so that some can get rich and others can play catch up, because those others are trying to get their investments back because these 1.00 animals that are imported here end up costing 10K by time they are passed on to the consumer.

Well, think on this. Where would herpetoculture be right now in relation to ball pythons, for instance, had importation of wild caught animals ceased 15 years ago?

Carrying that thought further, if importation were to stop today, what potentials would not be realized in 15 years into the future that we cannot foresee at this moment?

 

[elago]

We'll put it this way...

http://pijac.org/_documents/ms_hb_1293.pdf

I live in MS. This means my personal BREEDER Dumeril's Boas, Ringed Pythons, ect. are at risk all of the sudden. I will sell my animals out of state before handing them over to USFWS to be terminated. What happens when legislation like this is proposed in your state?

Importing in the US is probably on its last legs. The only problem is this- its not going to stop there. Legislation like that posted on the link above will soon become commonplace in every state. Individuals who own these animals are going to have to turn in their LIVELIHOODS to USFWS to be disposed of. If you support an anti-importation movement, you are effectively as a pet owner because they will NOT STOP THERE.

This is not about CB vs. WC, it's about NATIVE VS. NON-NATIVE in the government's eyes. So for everyone out there breeding leos, balls, boas, geckos, torts, ANYTHING that is non-native- it's just a matter of time before the government takes your animals, and they are going to use the USG situation for ammunition.