USARK & Reptile Nation Save 5 of 9 species from FWS Constrictor Rule!

[Metachrosis]

 

[WebSlave]

do you just follow webslave around from thread to thread kissing his ass.

Rodney has been escorted out of the building. I've been trying to use kid gloves to guide him (and everyone else) into a mature and professional discussion. Obviously that didn't work, so other means appear to be necessary.

 

[HerpVenue]

Both of us got warned about our behavior.
One of us heeded those warnings.
The other one didn't.


Anyway back on topic.
Whether we saved 5 or we lost 4. It is all just half empty or half full. Half is half no matter what. We gave it our all. At least judging by what the opposition says about us. I think this is all a good wake up call.

 

[WingedWolf]

USARK is absolutely dwarfed by the forces it's fighting, and I absolutely do not think they deserve any condemnation for what happened. FWS used a loophole to list 4 species because the estimated economic impact was low enough that those 4 wouldn't require a vote to list, once separated from the other 5.
If it were not for USARK's efforts, they would have listed all 9, because there would have been no one to refute their deliberate underestimation of the economic impact of listing all 9.
USARK is most likely frantically researching what will be necessary to continue the fight. I can only hope that they're up to it. They only have a hope of that if we continue to stand behind them.
They really are our only hope, you know.
We've done well in SOME places fighting these things locally (not so well in others), but the deluge isn't letting up, and that just isn't enough anymore. We need them.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

If we can't get people to voting on the White House Petition, then we don't hope to get this over turned either, because it won't warrant their attention otherwise. 25,000 needed, we haven't hit 4K yet.

 

[Lair of Dragons]

Saw a post earlier that made a lot of sense...25,000 vote will not get a lot of attention if any...let me see if I can find it...
Travis

 

[Lair of Dragons]

Here it is...it came from a different forum....if we do not get every single breeder of every single reptile to sign and all the customers that they can contact and their family and friends to log in and sign and until we can get it to a point fo signatures to draw real attention..so reach out, reach deep....think outside the box and get it going. Here is what the post said...

25,000 is barely enough to get a California Senator to pay attention. Diane Feinstein is on record as saying "until I get 25,000 phone calls they do not have my attention". Likely an online petition would not get her attention at 25,000 if at all.

The fact is the USA has 300,000,000 people. The industry believes 3-10% own herps. If we stick with the low end of 3% that is 9,000,000 people owning herps. If you set your goal at 25,000 you are PROVING to opposition how insignificant you are. Specially if you fail! You seek 0.2% of all herp owners sign your petition.

Get 1,000,000 to sign and now you have a shot at getting their attention. Less and you show too much to opposition.

Post by hugh_jass from a different site.

It made a lot of sense.
Travis
Lair of Dragons

 

[jimmynotch]

I do find the issue with the Everglades versus Big Sugar really facinating. It sucks that big money has so much crushing power. The thing I find the most powerful however is how a group of people, who have such a passion for big snakes and their husbandry, can have such little concern for a fragile natural ecosystem (such as the Everglades). I was under the impression that we are interested in snakes partly because they bring a tangible awareness to a larger group of animals (not just reptiles) that are in serious danger of being wiped out. As if we see the beauty in these creatures and where they live while the rest of the world could just as soon plow over, pave over, burn down, etc., because "its just some $#^#ing swamp". And lets not forget about the level of habitat destruction in the areas where our snakes are indigenous to. Amazon, anyone? Southeast Asia?

The ban is a horrible example of reationary policy being pushed through with the misguidance of ignorance, bad judgement, and crappy politics. But we as a community of reptile hobbyists, natural history buffs, and junior zoologists did little to be proactive while this legislation came down the line. And we have seen it coming for almost six years. Instead of trying to mitigate ourselves and our industry's practices, work toward an ownership permit system (or perhaps some good ole' fashioned self control), we clenched our fists in defiance and half-assed waded into a battle we could never have won. "It'll never happen! They'll have to pry our snakes from our cold dead hands..." Add in a healthy dash of apathetic bury-your-head-in-the-sand anti governmentalism, and VOILA! No more pythons. Next, no more anything-that-isnt-a-dog-or-cat.

 

[Metachrosis]

 

[mxracer4life]

http://www.eagletribune.com/newhampshire/x1456425659/Federal-snake-ban-has-reptile-dealers-fuming

Post a comment!

 

[SPJ]

OH MY GOD! There are uneducated, close minded idiots posting comments over there.

Here is my comment. Hopefully it will help the "I don't like snakes" people understand the issue.

First of all, no one in Florida is allowed to buy a burmese python. The ownership of these animals in that stat has been banned for a few years now. Second, this law now makes a person a criminal if they move to another state and want to take their pet with them. They will faced with breaking the law or abandoning their pet. Another point to consider is that competent reptile vets are hard to come by and some people travel to an adjoining state when there pet needs medical care. This law makes that illegal. So people are now going to be forced to neglect their pet since they will be breaking the law to get their pet medical care. This law encourages neglect and abandonment of pets. All of you "I don't like snakes" people step back a minute. Substitute cat, dog, bird, any other animal in the place of snake and you will see why this law is horrible.

 

[Skiploder]

If we can't get people to voting on the White House Petition, then we don't hope to get this over turned either, because it won't warrant their attention otherwise. 25,000 needed, we haven't hit 4K yet.

I must have missed something..........

Who is claiming that if 25K signatures are collected, someone will overturn this?

Who is this person or entity that will overturn it?

 

[Skiploder]

USARK is absolutely dwarfed by the forces it's fighting, and I absolutely do not think they deserve any condemnation for what happened. FWS used a loophole to list 4 species because the estimated economic impact was low enough that those 4 wouldn't require a vote to list, once separated from the other 5.
If it were not for USARK's efforts, they would have listed all 9, because there would have been no one to refute their deliberate underestimation of the economic impact of listing all 9.
USARK is most likely frantically researching what will be necessary to continue the fight. I can only hope that they're up to it. They only have a hope of that if we continue to stand behind them.
They really are our only hope, you know.
We've done well in SOME places fighting these things locally (not so well in others), but the deluge isn't letting up, and that just isn't enough anymore. We need them.

I still must be missing something........

Donna, how exactly did USARK save 5 of 9 species? I have never seen those details outlining what they actually did.

 

[Lair of Dragons]

I must have missed something..........

Who is claiming that if 25K signatures are collected, someone will overturn this?

Who is this person or entity that will overturn it?

I stated the same thing on page 13...25k votes just wont do it...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

 

[Skiploder]

I stated the same thing on page 13...25k votes just wont do it...
Travis
Lair of Dragons

People seem to think that a petition is needed for the USFWS to overturn their own rule change. Even USARK is saying it will do no good.

Instead of empty gestures, maybe the best thing anyone can do is educate themselves on the process. First, what this action was and why the 4 species were affected.

Second, what it means to challenge this in Federal Court, and how said court would view the scientific evidence. This is not the first time an amendment or rule change to the Lacey Act has been challenged. How about looking at the success rate of such challenges?

Third, the costs of such a legal action.

Fourth, what happens if you lose.

Fifth, pay attention to what the USFWS is already saying about what they need to do to get the other 5 species covered by a rule change.

 

[mxracer4life]

People seem to think that a petition is needed for the USFWS to overturn their own rule change. Even USARK is saying it will do no good.

Instead of empty gestures, maybe the best thing anyone can do is educate themselves on the process. First, what this action was and why the 4 species were affected.

Second, what it means to challenge this in Federal Court, and how said court would view the scientific evidence. This is not the first time an amendment or rule change to the Lacey Act has been challenged. How about looking at the success rate of such challenges?

Third, the costs of such a legal action.

Fourth, what happens if you lose.

Fifth, pay attention to what the USFWS is already saying about what they need to do to get the other 5 species covered by a rule change.

No, these petitions will not win us this case. What these petitions will do is get more people involved. I have talked to many people who clearly were not aware of the ban. I believe it is a good tool for education at the least.

 

[Skiploder]

No, these petitions will not win us this case. What these petitions will do is get more people involved. I have talked to many people who clearly were not aware of the ban. I believe it is a good tool for education at the least.

Jeremy:

I guess we can agree to disagree.

A good educational tool educates. This petition states that there is a ban - but we all know the ban is on importation and interstate commerce - right?

Judging from the mixed messages I see on forum to forum, that is not a rhetorical question. Truly, people have no idea what this "ban" is.

A good educational tool would inform people without asking them to performing futile actions. Sending a petition to the White House on a USFWS rule change is futile. Especially when it has been pointed out that (1) the petition isn't gonna change the situation (looky at all the OTHER petitions floating around that site) and (2) the petition runs the real risk of showing other parties exactly what a feeble response we are probably going to generate.

I am all for education and getting people involved. But people tend to have short attention spans. For a short window of time, the reptile community's attention is focused on this, we should not be fooling people into making symbolic gestures that aren't gonna change a damn thing.

In the meantime, Virginia is facing a REAL ban where these letters and petitions would probably do a lot more good.

 

[mxracer4life]

Jeremy:

I guess we can agree to disagree.

A good educational tool educates. This petition states that there is a ban - but we all know the ban is on importation and interstate commerce - right?

Judging from the mixed messages I see on forum to forum, that is not a rhetorical question. Truly, people have no idea what this "ban" is.

A good educational tool would inform people without asking them to performing futile actions. Sending a petition to the White House on a USFWS rule change is futile. Especially when it has been pointed out that (1) the petition isn't gonna change the situation (looky at all the OTHER petitions floating around that site) and (2) the petition runs the real risk of showing other parties exactly what a feeble response we are probably going to generate.

I am all for education and getting people involved. But people tend to have short attention spans. For a short window of time, the reptile community's attention is focused on this, we should not be fooling people into making symbolic gestures that aren't gonna change a damn thing.

In the meantime, Virginia is facing a REAL ban where these letters and petitions would probably do a lot more good.

Education occurs in steps. People seeing these petitions is a "step", to spark there interest, or at least we hope. But I do get where your coming from. Just wanted you to know the reason why I continue to post these links.

 

[crotalusadamanteus]

I must have missed something..........

Who is claiming that if 25K signatures are collected, someone will overturn this?

Who is this person or entity that will overturn it?

You need to NOT read so deeply into my post. That ain't what I said.

Let me help, it takes AT LEAST 25,000 signatures, for them to even look at it. Of course more draws more attention. But without AT LEAST 25K, they simply delete the thing.

Nowhere anywhere in this thread did I say they WILL overturn anything. I said we have no hope of it happening, unless the above occurs.

 

[Skiploder]

You need to NOT read so deeply into my post. That ain't what I said.

Let me help, it takes AT LEAST 25,000 signatures, for them to even look at it. Of course more draws more attention. But without AT LEAST 25K, they simply delete the thing.

Nowhere anywhere in this thread did I say they WILL overturn anything. I said we have no hope of it happening, unless the above occurs.

I read it clearly. The implication is that if you get 25K signatures, there is hope of overturning the rule change.

We have no hope of it happening even if it does occur. Who is going to overturn it?

Even USARK has stated as much. So again - why the petition?