pch101
New member
I have detected a hint of dislike for them in some of your other posts. Like I said we just have different ways of looking at some things I guess.
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USFW SERVICE needs to change...help me please!!!!
- Thread starter Justin Mitcham
- Start date
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
well JAMES,
Did it ever dawn on you that I may have had very valid reasons for my dislike of these people. It is very conceivable that we may have "very similar thoughts about wildlife and the people who serve them" but my experience with them during a more turbulent period, left some unmistakable marks and impressions that remind me that these F&W people are not our industry friends. Any gains that we as an industry have gained has been triumphed through international agreements , potential federal lawsuits and a variety of gathering of strenghs to fight any impending legislation. Fish and Wildlife could not care less about your shipment other than the fact that if their are any reasons why "these shipments should NOT be released" you can bet your bottom dollar, they will find one!!!
Unless I am mistaken, I dont think this is something that you would favor! So we may have more in common than you think. My only complaint is that before you become flippant about "you not being so surprised as to who said that" take into consideration that I may have some justification for my verbal condensation for F&W.
Did it ever dawn on you that I may have had very valid reasons for my dislike of these people. It is very conceivable that we may have "very similar thoughts about wildlife and the people who serve them" but my experience with them during a more turbulent period, left some unmistakable marks and impressions that remind me that these F&W people are not our industry friends. Any gains that we as an industry have gained has been triumphed through international agreements , potential federal lawsuits and a variety of gathering of strenghs to fight any impending legislation. Fish and Wildlife could not care less about your shipment other than the fact that if their are any reasons why "these shipments should NOT be released" you can bet your bottom dollar, they will find one!!!
Unless I am mistaken, I dont think this is something that you would favor! So we may have more in common than you think. My only complaint is that before you become flippant about "you not being so surprised as to who said that" take into consideration that I may have some justification for my verbal condensation for F&W.
pch101
New member
"Did it ever dawn on you that I may have had very valid reasons for my dislike of these people."
I did dawn on me that you have your reasons hence my remark. I guess the validity of them is dependent on who you are talking too.
"It is very conceivable that we may have "very similar thoughts about wildlife and the people who serve them"
conceivable, but not the case. Trust me, we don't, and that is fine. You are as entitled to your views as I am mine.
"but my experience with them during a more turbulent period, left some unmistakable marks and impressions that remind me that these F&W people are not our industry friends."
I guess that would depend on how you look at this "industry". The fact that you look at this as an industry is if no surprise as well (that was not meant to be flippant, so please do not take it as such).
"Any gains that we as an industry have gained has been triumphed through international agreements , potential federal lawsuits and a variety of gathering of strenghs to fight any impending legislation."
Again, I think we look at the reptile in a totally different way.
"Fish and Wildlife could not care less about your shipment other than the fact that if their are any reasons why "these shipments should NOT be released" you can bet your bottom dollar, they will find one!!!"
Think about that statement. That is one aspect of THEIR job. Is it not? By doing such they are serving the best interests of the wildlife and us. If there is something wrong with the shipment, and they catch it, how is that bad?
"Unless I am mistaken, I dont think this is something that you would favor!"
You should not assume. You would be surprised of what I am in favor of. I am very much in favor of USFW doing their jobs, and I support them in their efforts 100%
"So we may have more in common than you think. My only complaint is that before you become flippant about "you not being so surprised as to who said that" take into consideration that I may have some justification for my verbal condensation for F&W."
My comment wasn't meant as flippant, it was just a comment in reference to the tone in many of your other posts when a subject like this comes up. I guess I can see how you took it that way. That being said, I am still trying to decide if your public condemnation of USFW is a foolish move of just pure gutsy. I don't know, maybe it is a little of both, and maybe it is neither. Either way, it is of no consequence. have a good evening.
I did dawn on me that you have your reasons hence my remark. I guess the validity of them is dependent on who you are talking too.
"It is very conceivable that we may have "very similar thoughts about wildlife and the people who serve them"
conceivable, but not the case. Trust me, we don't, and that is fine. You are as entitled to your views as I am mine.
"but my experience with them during a more turbulent period, left some unmistakable marks and impressions that remind me that these F&W people are not our industry friends."
I guess that would depend on how you look at this "industry". The fact that you look at this as an industry is if no surprise as well (that was not meant to be flippant, so please do not take it as such).
"Any gains that we as an industry have gained has been triumphed through international agreements , potential federal lawsuits and a variety of gathering of strenghs to fight any impending legislation."
Again, I think we look at the reptile in a totally different way.
"Fish and Wildlife could not care less about your shipment other than the fact that if their are any reasons why "these shipments should NOT be released" you can bet your bottom dollar, they will find one!!!"
Think about that statement. That is one aspect of THEIR job. Is it not? By doing such they are serving the best interests of the wildlife and us. If there is something wrong with the shipment, and they catch it, how is that bad?
"Unless I am mistaken, I dont think this is something that you would favor!"
You should not assume. You would be surprised of what I am in favor of. I am very much in favor of USFW doing their jobs, and I support them in their efforts 100%
"So we may have more in common than you think. My only complaint is that before you become flippant about "you not being so surprised as to who said that" take into consideration that I may have some justification for my verbal condensation for F&W."
My comment wasn't meant as flippant, it was just a comment in reference to the tone in many of your other posts when a subject like this comes up. I guess I can see how you took it that way. That being said, I am still trying to decide if your public condemnation of USFW is a foolish move of just pure gutsy. I don't know, maybe it is a little of both, and maybe it is neither. Either way, it is of no consequence. have a good evening.
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
James,
You may not mean for your remarks to sound "flippant" but honestly that is how they come off. Condescending may be another appropriate term to describe them.
Read what you have written over again, and try to empathize with the person to whom you are intending your comments and see if indeed your think a bit differently.
When you say something such as "The fact that you look at this as an industry is if no surprise as well (that was not meant to be flippant, so please do not take it as such)" it automatically sounds flippant. It's like saying "don't take this personally but..." or "whatever you do don't think about sex".
You have strong opinions about this subject. Your post in response to my post earlier was borderline antagonistic. I replied with fact and source and tried to keep it objective. If you oppose the laws then vote for new lawmakers. On the other hand, it is not OK for Fish and Wildlife to create a bottleneck for legitimate businesses conducting legal operations, even if you disagree with what those businesses do.
For the record, I have been in contact today with two different people who are trying to get CITES for captive bred, non-native Appendix II animals. Both applied for the permits a month or so ago and both were told they would wait four to six months if everything is in order. They both know about this thread and are free to post here if they choose but they are both reputable people I assure you.
You may not mean for your remarks to sound "flippant" but honestly that is how they come off. Condescending may be another appropriate term to describe them.
Read what you have written over again, and try to empathize with the person to whom you are intending your comments and see if indeed your think a bit differently.
When you say something such as "The fact that you look at this as an industry is if no surprise as well (that was not meant to be flippant, so please do not take it as such)" it automatically sounds flippant. It's like saying "don't take this personally but..." or "whatever you do don't think about sex".
You have strong opinions about this subject. Your post in response to my post earlier was borderline antagonistic. I replied with fact and source and tried to keep it objective. If you oppose the laws then vote for new lawmakers. On the other hand, it is not OK for Fish and Wildlife to create a bottleneck for legitimate businesses conducting legal operations, even if you disagree with what those businesses do.
For the record, I have been in contact today with two different people who are trying to get CITES for captive bred, non-native Appendix II animals. Both applied for the permits a month or so ago and both were told they would wait four to six months if everything is in order. They both know about this thread and are free to post here if they choose but they are both reputable people I assure you.
pch101
New member
Was it Emerson that said "only a fool takes offence when none is intended"? Either way, it is something to think about as well. Read my post again Jim. I said I could see how he took it that way. So why the Long lecture when I already obviously mentioned that. I think I explained my self as clearly as one can, and I see no need to tip toe through the tulips, as it were, for anyone. That being said, I thought that my points were made quite civilly. It is obvious we do not see eye to eye here, and that is fine as well. At the same time, I just do not see a need to vilify USFW here. I just do not see how it serves anyone's interests.
"They both know about this thread and are free to post here if they choose but they are both reputable people I assure you."
That is great, but why are you telling me that? There is no need to assure me of anything concerning them. Anyone can post here that wants to. It is really of no concern to me.
"They both know about this thread and are free to post here if they choose but they are both reputable people I assure you."
That is great, but why are you telling me that? There is no need to assure me of anything concerning them. Anyone can post here that wants to. It is really of no concern to me.
KNOBTAIL
LORD OF THE FLIES
There is no additonal response
to provide other than protect your interests, financially and legally by forming a group to persuade the people who are in charge of implementing these applications............... to expedite them.
With regard to James Wilson, he is certainly entitiled to his opinion ,
but his leanings are to much for me to deal with after the miserys that I have witnessed when F&W decide to take things personally, and hold up shipments knowing full well that the final outcome will be the death of the animals.
This scenerio has played itself from the Pacific coast to the Atlantic, where well meaning businesses run into individuals on a consistant basis who seem to take their uniform as God like in their minds and attempt to cause havoc for the smallest infraction that may involve some paper work mix up, and knowing full well that the merchandise is living and perishable. They have sterotyped most if not all dealers of herps into a catagory that probably is lower than the homeless, and attempt to treat individuals who are attempting to conduct a legal business with contempt.
I know of no other industry that is so permit oriented as the herp industry is , and it will be get worse once another wise decision comes down from the govt to incorporate health certificates for each species being imported or exported. Its just another avenue for choking the life out of an industry that has enough problems with trying to get through the normal routine of doing some daily business activity without being partnered with the govt.
to provide other than protect your interests, financially and legally by forming a group to persuade the people who are in charge of implementing these applications............... to expedite them.
With regard to James Wilson, he is certainly entitiled to his opinion ,
but his leanings are to much for me to deal with after the miserys that I have witnessed when F&W decide to take things personally, and hold up shipments knowing full well that the final outcome will be the death of the animals.
This scenerio has played itself from the Pacific coast to the Atlantic, where well meaning businesses run into individuals on a consistant basis who seem to take their uniform as God like in their minds and attempt to cause havoc for the smallest infraction that may involve some paper work mix up, and knowing full well that the merchandise is living and perishable. They have sterotyped most if not all dealers of herps into a catagory that probably is lower than the homeless, and attempt to treat individuals who are attempting to conduct a legal business with contempt.
I know of no other industry that is so permit oriented as the herp industry is , and it will be get worse once another wise decision comes down from the govt to incorporate health certificates for each species being imported or exported. Its just another avenue for choking the life out of an industry that has enough problems with trying to get through the normal routine of doing some daily business activity without being partnered with the govt.
brucestephenson
New member
Great post, Jerry!
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
Maybe you ought to look in the mirror when you say that, as clearly you seem a bit bunched about a "Long" lecture. As for vilification, the point of this thread was poor service from a government agency, nothing more.pch101 said:
Are you the only one reading this thread? Take a hot shower man. Drink some wine. Relax with a good book. I was corroborating what Justin had said. Again, look at the opening post in this thread, then read how he was contradicted. I mention it myself as I believe these individuals may be concerned that posting it themselves can cause them only grief in the application process. Hence you and anyone else can decide if what I say is true, based on your knowledge of me, or if I pulled this story out of thin air. And that is truly of no consequence to me.pch101 said:
You may have different views that I or other people have of what Fish and Wildlife does, but consider this question. How would you feel if it took the IRS 6 months or more to process your income tax refund? Or if the wait at the DMV was 12 hours instead of 4? Or if it took 6 months for you to get a permit to put in a new well because your old one went dry and you had no water? Or 6 months to get a permit to rebuild your home after it had burned to the ground? Or 6 months to get the results of a road test? Or 6 months to get a license to do your job (electrician, pharmacist, physician, pilot, etc) and you could not work in the meantime? Or 6 months to get a passport? This is the point that Justin is making here and that I am attempting to corroborate. It may not be a right to do the export but it should be expected to get a yea or a nay in a reasonable time frame. And that should apply whether you agree with what he does or not. As I said, if you don't agree, elect new lawmakers. That is your right. But it is every citizen's right to demand semi-decent service from a government agency charged with providing that service.
pch101
New member
"Are you the only one reading this thread? "
Correct me if I am wrong Jim, but didn't you addess your post to me? Just a thought to consider... Try it.
Correct me if I am wrong Jim, but didn't you addess your post to me? Just a thought to consider... Try it.
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
James,pch101 said:
This is a public forum and the comments were meant for all to read. If they only intended for you they would have been made privately.
Grow up...try it.
pch101
New member
"With regard to James Wilson, he is certainly entitiled to his opinion ,
but his leanings are to much for me to deal with after the miserys that I have witnessed when F&W decide to take things personally, and hold up shipments knowing full well that the final outcome will be the death of the animals.
This scenerio has played itself from the Pacific coast to the Atlantic, where well meaning businesses run into individuals on a consistant basis who seem to take their uniform as God like in their minds and attempt to cause havoc for the smallest infraction that may involve some paper work mix up, and knowing full well that the merchandise is living and perishable. They have sterotyped most if not all dealers of herps into a catagory that probably is lower than the homeless, and attempt to treat individuals who are attempting to conduct a legal business with contempt."
Jerry,
I will be the first to say that is a shame if that is what is happening. I also realize that in any situation where individuals are placed in a position of power, and given a badge and uniform that there will be a percentage of those that let that power go to their heads. All too often power does corrupt. This is an unfortunate fact, and I am not so naive that I do not realize it. That being said, I still feel that USFW is there for a reason, and I support them in their efforts.
but his leanings are to much for me to deal with after the miserys that I have witnessed when F&W decide to take things personally, and hold up shipments knowing full well that the final outcome will be the death of the animals.
This scenerio has played itself from the Pacific coast to the Atlantic, where well meaning businesses run into individuals on a consistant basis who seem to take their uniform as God like in their minds and attempt to cause havoc for the smallest infraction that may involve some paper work mix up, and knowing full well that the merchandise is living and perishable. They have sterotyped most if not all dealers of herps into a catagory that probably is lower than the homeless, and attempt to treat individuals who are attempting to conduct a legal business with contempt."
Jerry,
I will be the first to say that is a shame if that is what is happening. I also realize that in any situation where individuals are placed in a position of power, and given a badge and uniform that there will be a percentage of those that let that power go to their heads. All too often power does corrupt. This is an unfortunate fact, and I am not so naive that I do not realize it. That being said, I still feel that USFW is there for a reason, and I support them in their efforts.
pch101
New member
You did not answer my simple question. Did you address the post to me or not?
Incase you are having some kind of technical difficulties, I will tell you again. You addressed the post to me, and I responded. If it was not intended for me, then do not address the post to me. Read it again. This should not be difficult to figure out Jim. It is very simple. I have no desire to fight with you, but at the same time I will not sit back and take a tongue lashing from you for responding to a post that you addressed to me specifically.
Incase you are having some kind of technical difficulties, I will tell you again. You addressed the post to me, and I responded. If it was not intended for me, then do not address the post to me. Read it again. This should not be difficult to figure out Jim. It is very simple. I have no desire to fight with you, but at the same time I will not sit back and take a tongue lashing from you for responding to a post that you addressed to me specifically.
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
OK...you win. I adressed the reply to you. And I posted it publicly as information for everyone. I should have clarified that the last paragraph was more "general information" for everyone as I had dealt with your flippancy already. Your answer was again a flippant "It is really of no concern to me". Thanks. Now will you sit down and chill out?pch101 said:
pch101
New member
I am as chilled as can be. Thanks for the concern. I appreciate it. I know that was not easy. Can we be friends again? 
pch101
New member
Enough with the flippancy stuff already. I say what is on my mind, and I always try to be civil. You generally do the same as well. I respect that. However, there are times that you can be very sarcastic, and sometimes it is very appropriate. Your last few remarks to me have been on the sarcastic/flippant side, but I try not to harp on that. I guess what I am trying to say is that I try to focus on what is actually said to me, rather than reading too much into the tone that it is said in. Does that help any? 
Suncoast Herpetological
Lurking in the Shadows
Boys Boys...
Play nice or we will have to separate you. (Just kidding James and Jim)
In all candor, both viewpoints seem to have a very valid basis. I, for one think that USFW serves a very valid purpose in the regulation of exports and imports. I certainly would not want that to be an unregulated branch of this industry.
On the other hand, while I do not think they necessarily need to do everything in their power to expedite our paperwork above all else, I do think that reasonable efforts to ac comadate the fact that the item being exported is a living creature should be made and all reasonable attempts should be made to do things in a timely manner.
We have to remember guys and gals...to us these animals are very wonderful and important in their own right. To a non-herp person they are, unfortunately, just cargo. Not fair, but true
Play nice or we will have to separate you. (Just kidding James and Jim)
In all candor, both viewpoints seem to have a very valid basis. I, for one think that USFW serves a very valid purpose in the regulation of exports and imports. I certainly would not want that to be an unregulated branch of this industry.
On the other hand, while I do not think they necessarily need to do everything in their power to expedite our paperwork above all else, I do think that reasonable efforts to ac comadate the fact that the item being exported is a living creature should be made and all reasonable attempts should be made to do things in a timely manner.
We have to remember guys and gals...to us these animals are very wonderful and important in their own right. To a non-herp person they are, unfortunately, just cargo. Not fair, but true
pch101
New member
"I guess what I am trying to say is that I try to focus on what is actually said to me, rather than reading too much into the tone that it is said in."
I should add that when I respond to someone I do it in the same way, and as you have said many times in the past it can be very hard to read someones tone when reading the written word. I guess that is why I try to avoid inferring too much into what people write. There I hope that explains things a little better.
I should add that when I respond to someone I do it in the same way, and as you have said many times in the past it can be very hard to read someones tone when reading the written word. I guess that is why I try to avoid inferring too much into what people write. There I hope that explains things a little better.
Jim O
Careful with that axe...
I sure hope so.pch101 said:Can we be friends again?
pch101
New member
"We have to remember guys and gals...to us these animals are very wonderful and important in their own right. To a non-herp person they are, unfortunately, just cargo. "
Actually John, I think the reverse is often true. I have seen people who actually do not even like herps get very concerned for the well being of the herp that was going to be shipped somewhere overnight, and I think some "herp people" look at herps as cargo. Only difference is that they look at it as cargo that is worth money. Either way I think that USFW and the people in the business of exporting and importing (especially importing) should not forget that that the needs of the animals that are being shipped. Thanks for your thoughts.
Actually John, I think the reverse is often true. I have seen people who actually do not even like herps get very concerned for the well being of the herp that was going to be shipped somewhere overnight, and I think some "herp people" look at herps as cargo. Only difference is that they look at it as cargo that is worth money. Either way I think that USFW and the people in the business of exporting and importing (especially importing) should not forget that that the needs of the animals that are being shipped. Thanks for your thoughts.
ducktx
New member
USFW petition
As a relative neophyte to the herp biz, I find ANY govt intrusion a pain in the...you get the idea. I would like to know the explanation for the rule changes, if indeed they have one beyond furthering their own bureaucracy. I will sign your petition barring any glaringly justifiable reasoning for the changes....which I don't anticipate getting. I only hope that in bucking the system you don't set yourself up for any govt harassment, or state-sponsored economic terrorism.
Good Luck, & please keep me posted as to your success.
Thanks!
Matt
As a relative neophyte to the herp biz, I find ANY govt intrusion a pain in the...you get the idea. I would like to know the explanation for the rule changes, if indeed they have one beyond furthering their own bureaucracy. I will sign your petition barring any glaringly justifiable reasoning for the changes....which I don't anticipate getting. I only hope that in bucking the system you don't set yourself up for any govt harassment, or state-sponsored economic terrorism.
Good Luck, & please keep me posted as to your success.
Thanks!
Matt