Venomoidinc.com Inquiry

[Gary O]

It does not regenerate. It repairs the gladn that is left over.

I will tell you the answer to my question.

He will not sign a contract saying the snake will NEVER produce venom again.

You ask why? Becuase it has happened before and he knows about the cobras that it happened too. They were hack jobs done in a garage.

Tanith a venomous keeper had her vert do a void surgery on a dead snake. His out take on it was that you could miss part of the gland if not carefull.

I say this. Jeremy is human. How many times do HUMAN doctors mess up. Are you willing to risk your lfe with a void? When humans do make mistakes. Atleast I KNOW all my venomous are hot. I KNOW they are loaded.

 

[gbcop]

It does not regenerate. It repairs the gladn that is left over.

I will tell you the answer to my question.

He will not sign a contract saying the snake will NEVER produce venom again.

You ask why? Becuase it has happened before and he knows about the cobras that it happened too. They were hack jobs done in a garage.

Tanith a venomous keeper had her vert do a void surgery on a dead snake. His out take on it was that you could miss part of the gland if not carefull.

I say this. Jeremy is human. How many times do HUMAN doctors mess up. Are you willing to risk your lfe with a void? When humans do make mistakes. Atleast I KNOW all my venomous are hot. I KNOW they are loaded.

Man, do you ever sleep Gary? LOL, every time I've made a post You've been right there behind me 2 minutes later.

MY whole reason for wanting the venomoid, was purely for safety reasons. There have been ALOT of professional hot keepers who have been biten, and owning one for me, was just another safety precaution.

 

[John E Dove]

Can anyone provide me with such proof of regeneration, or towards someone who might have so I can forward such information over to this guy? I have since become highly concerned with the fact that people have mentioned that regeneration is possible, and Venomoidinc.com has yet to answer my question as to a written contract, or what they would do in the event an animal does regenerate.

Thanks,

David B.

Based on your request I did a simple GOOGLE search and found the following;
http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html
"Venomoid FAQ
Q. What happens if a venomoid snake bites me?
A. If you're lucky, nothing but a deep puncture wound from its fangs. That can still be a nasty bite, and you may want to discuss it with your doctor. If you're not lucky, some degree of envenomation may occur. Not all snakes sold as venomoid are actually unable to envenomate, either because of outright fraud on the dealer's part, a badly performed amateur surgical procedure, or partial regeneration of the duct or remaining gland tissue. Buyer beware. One serious human envenomation by a venomoid cobra was documented by the Liverpool School of Tropical Medicine, and some people have reported that their "venomoids" can kill mice or that they have milked their "venomoid" and obtained venom. Remember that some venomous snakes with complete glands can deliver many times the human lethal dose in one bite. A snake with even a little bit of gland tissue left can still give a very bad bite, possibly enough to kill. Regeneration has been reported by veterinarians who have examined some of these snakes, especially when only the duct is severed."

That led me to find this;
http://www.aussiereptileclassifieds.com/phpPETITION/debunk.html

"1) Liverpool England, Monocle Cobra “Naja kaothia” long term captive animal that bit a handler and did in fact inject venom which required medical treatment including Anti-Venom

2) Miami Florida, Monocle Cobra “Naja kaouthia” long term captive animal that bit a handler and did in fact inject venom which required medical treatment including Anti-Venom , Confirmed by Venom1 “ Miami Anti-Venom Bank” Also reported in Reptiles Magazine.

3) Holland, Gaboon Viper “Bitis gaboonica” Captive born animal who had its ducts removed bit a handler and did in fact inject venom which required medical treatment including Anti-Venom.

4) Port Saint Lucie Florida, Papuan Black Snake “Pseudechis papuanus” surgery performed by “Richard Ritchie” and returned to a seller upon receipt the seller offered the animal a Live mouse which the snake bit and killed, having suspicions of it being venomous a Large rat was offered and the snake again bit and killed the rat. After these to incidents Raymond Hunter a trained venom extraction laboratory technician performed a venom extraction on the animals with Scott Bice present and venom was confirmed.

5) In late 1986-87 Brian Blazer(currently Blazer's Educational Animal) Recieved 3 King Cobras(O. Hannah) 12-14' in length. All three specimens had venomoid surgeries conducted a few weeks prior.(Conducted by Dr. Funk) Apparently the deal fell through and Brian asked if I Ray Goushaw of Herpetological Breeding Research would take one off his hands. Specimens were split between Brian, Soco Gardens and myself. About three months later Brian called me in a panic. During a routine cage cleaning the king he was keeping had unexpectedly rushed him. Since he had a roll of paper towels in his hand he simply blocked the strike attempt. To his horror the paper towel roll filled with a yellow liquid. It was quickly confirmed that ALL THREE specimens were producing venom to some degree. All details can be confirmed upon request."

I don’t know that any of that helps but it would seem the info/proof you seek is not all that hard to find.

 

[Wraith]

MY whole reason for wanting the venomoid, was purely for safety reasons. There have been ALOT of professional hot keepers who have been biten, and owning one for me, was just another safety precaution.

If you want a venomoid for "safety reasons" because you can't handle a full-on hot snake, then you have no business getting a snake in the first place. Get a coachwhip or watersnake or something else that IS actually harmless to play with.

 

[gbcop]

If you want a venomoid for "safety reasons" because you can't handle a full-on hot snake, then you have no business getting a snake in the first place. Get a coachwhip or watersnake or something else that IS actually harmless to play with.

Where did I say I didn't have the experience or just flat out couldn't handle a hot snake???

Your not going to be able to find that because I never said that. ALOT of professional hot keepers have been tagged. It's a sad part of life, but accidents do happen. While risks can be GREATLY reduced, accidents still and can occure. While there are just as many if not more hot keepers who haven't been bit, everyone takes safety precautions when dealing with their animals. Ie: NEVER Stick hand inside cage when animal is inside, Use of trash can for holding, Use of extra long tweezers for feeding ect, ect, ect... These are ALL SAFETY PRECAUTIONS to keep from being bitten. Again, what's a better safety precaution than owning a hot snake that is unable to produce venom?

 

[Gary O]

GBcop

This subject interests me. I have done a lot of research about this subject. Snakegetters is owned by Tanith. She may alos have the docs up when hervet did the surgeries.


But I ask you again. You are doing it for safty reasons. Will you go to the hospital if you are bitten and tell them you were bitten by so and so venomous snake?


Becuase I state again. venomoids are the unloaded gun of this hobby.

 

[Gary O]

Oh and Tanith is a well respected venomous keeper. I just knew what the Vet that owns venomoid inc would say. I have went in depth about it with them.

also they say they are against free handling but they do it at the hamburg show ALL the time. Last hamburg show I went to they had an adult gabbon out and about being handled. FREELY! WOW that was so cool........ I am being a smart ass by calling it cool.

 

[SPJ]

Again, what's a better safety precaution than owning a hot snake that is unable to produce venom?

Because in the back of your mind you will know it is not a real hot and that could cause complacency.
There is no comparing the protocol used when dealing with an intact snake versus a void.
Human nature will will not allow you to treat it as if one bite could be devastating.

 

[gbcop]

GBcop

This subject interests me. I have done a lot of research about this subject. Snakegetters is owned by Tanith. She may alos have the docs up when hervet did the surgeries.


But I ask you again. You are doing it for safty reasons. Will you go to the hospital if you are bitten and tell them you were bitten by so and so venomous snake?


Becuase I state again. venomoids are the unloaded gun of this hobby.

Very intresting point Gary.

If I had say a C. Atrox and got tagged, of course I would go to the hospital immediately. Now if I accidently got tagged by a venomoid C. Atrox, honestly, I can't say I would immediately go to the hospital. I would monitor the bite for early warning signs of envenomation before I would go, and otherwise just monitor the area of the bite for possible infections after thoroughly cleaning the bite area.

But then again, the chance, however small of getting tagged, is the reason I have considered a venomoid.

 

[Bill Stonegate]

I know alot of people are against Venomoid's, so if you are one of those people, please save your comments.

Any and all feedback is highly appreciated!

Thanks,

David Beaver

Ok, lets take a scenic little drive down to Stupidville. I realize that sounds sarcastic, and it is. If you don't know how to handle hot snakes, don't try.

I handle rattlesnakes; would never dream of trying to handle Elapids, without a good trainer.

David, it's not about the snake, it's about you. Please don't become another stupid statistic.

 

[gbcop]

Because in the back of your mind you will know it is not a real hot and that could cause complacency.
There is no comparing the protocol used when dealing with an intact snake versus a void.
Human nature will will not allow you to treat it as if one bite could be devastating.

Human nature can always be altered by training. Not dealing with snakes, but an unexperienced driver who accidently vears off the road onto the grass, will ultimately overcorrect as they try and swerve to get back onto the road in fear of wrecking. Which is human nature. Now you take someone who has training and experience driving in the same situation, they will not panic, and will slowly steer the vehicle back onto the roadway safely.

So I must respectfully disagree with you. I can't ever see myself reaching into a cage with any type of venomous species of snake, venomoid or not. Especially now, knowing that if the procedure wasn't done properly, there is a chance of the venon glands, basically regenerate.

 

[Mangshan]

Things to consider...

Hmmm...
Let me begin with a little analogy.

So you want a dog....but you are either too lazy or just a very incompetent pet owner....because you don't want to have to "scoop de poop".
To avoid having your backyard start to look like war zone....(with landmines made of dung covering every square inch of territory)....and to avoid having to deal with the NORMAL responsibilities of every other dog owner...you decide to take your trusting dog to a questionable "Vet" for a "special" surgery. You ask this "Phoney Vet" to merely sew the dog's anus shut.
Problem Solved! Wow! Now that's responsible pet ownership!!!

Pathetic.

I am regularly asked to help the local enforcement agencies deal with reptiles.
Consequently...I often end up dealing with a lot of strange calls...from both the enforcement agencies....and the general public.

I was once contacted by a couple who asked me to help them with a pair of Naja kaouthia...they were moving and needed help getting the snakes contained for the move. They said they purchased the snakes as venomoids.
They said, "Don't worry! It is completely safe....this was done by a professional."
They paid considerably more for them as Venomoids. The person who did the surgery was supposed to be "one of the best".
However, the owners were still not comfortable dealing with the snakes themselves. Hmmmm.

One of the snakes had in infection in it's mouth. (Stomatitis).
It had not received the care that a non-venomous snake would have received
because, it's owners were not comfortable dealing with it...I think they secretly feared that it may still be venomous.

I used all of the typical gear that you would use for an intact venomous snake. I was inspecting the tubed snake's mouth with the infection.
After debriding, I treated the animal with antibiotic, and advised the owners to take their snake to a reptile qualified local Veterinarian.
They declined to do so...fearing legal trouble. Responsibility?

The snake appeared to have venom flowing from it's fangs.

(I did inform the local Vet of the situation...just in case the owners decided bring the snakes in.)

I inspected the second N. kaouthia...Although it's mouth did appear clean, it also possesed vicous yellow fluid that flowed from its fangs....not merely saliva!
Please bear in mind that I did not test the fluid...however, I am certain that it was indeed venom.

That night I was faced with a real conundrum....who else should I notify?
After all, this is the type of situation that the media loves to exploit.
More bad press?
Or someone possibly endangered?
The next morning...the situation was solved by these "responsible pet owners". True to their character...they called in frantic state.
They had packed the animals in the car...allowed then to become overheated. Again the animals were the ones to suffer. Both died.

If you are not competent enough to maintain an "intact" venomous animal, (one which has not been tortured...err, I mean surgically altered) then perhaps you should settle for a pet less demanding of your faculties...like a Chia Herb Garden Pet...or maybe an Electronic Pet. After all, if you are afraid to water the Chia pet....and it dies...you will have some nice dried herbs! And if you are too lazy to properly care for your Electronic Pet...you will save money on batteries!

Venomoids are not a way to skirt the law. If you are concerned about the legalities of ownership....check with your State and Local laws prior to considering obtaining the animal. Venomoids are not only unethical, they may also endanger yourself and others....as well, they could jepordize your freedom....not to mention the black eye that they give to everyone in our reptile community. With all of the attention that is being focused on new and more restrictive legislation in our hobby/business...why create more reasons for new laws to be implemented by acting in an irresponsible manner.
Lastly...There is NO SUCH THING as a venomoid surgery which was performed correctly.
That is in itself, an oxy-moron!

 

[DavidBeard]

Harlin, your story does little to add to this conversation unless you have proof that the Naja you dealt with came from Venomoid Inc.

Thats like saying that your friends bought a couple of Ball Pythons that ended up having mites, therefore nobody should purchase Ball Pythons from anyone, anywhere.

Is there a chance of a venomoid becoming venomous after having the surgery done? Yes, but if it is done properly, the chances are slim to none. Even Gary, vehement anti-venomoid person admitted that if the glands are removed totally the snake is rendered totally non-venomous.

Hack-jobs cannot be compared to a full duct/gland removal surgery done by a DVM in sterile condition who (going from his website) uses anesthesia and silicone implants and does the surgery through the roof of the mouth. Its apples and oranges.

Too often people want to shove their own personal beliefs and viewpoints down the throats of others under the guise of "information". Many anti-venomoid people I have seen use outlandish comparisons to other surgeries, such as Harlin's above comparison to a rediculous anus-removal surgery on a dog. That is complete BS.

I don't have a problem with people disagreeing with any aspect of the herp hobby, but don't perpetuate half-truths and your own opinions as facts in the sake of smearing others because they don't fall in line with your agenda.

 

[gbcop]

If you are not competent enough to maintain an "intact" venomous animal, (one which has not been tortured...err, I mean surgically altered) then perhaps you should settle for a pet less demanding of your faculties...like a Chia Herb Garden Pet...or maybe an Electronic Pet. After all, if you are afraid to water the Chia pet....and it dies...you will have some nice dried herbs! And if you are too lazy to properly care for your Electronic Pet...you will save money on batteries!

Venomoids are not a way to skirt the law. If you are concerned about the legalities of ownership....check with your State and Local laws prior to considering obtaining the animal. Venomoids are not only unethical, they may also endanger yourself and others....as well, they could jepordize your freedom....not to mention the black eye that they give to everyone in our reptile community. With all of the attention that is being focused on new and more restrictive legislation in our hobby/business...why create more reasons for new laws to be implemented by acting in an irresponsible manner.
Lastly...There is NO SUCH THING as a venomoid surgery which was performed correctly.
That is in itself, an oxy-moron!

Hmm, do I come to your work and throw stones at you while your mowing? NO, so why have you flat out ignored my O.P. and are intentionally trying to start a pissin contest with me?

First off, you don't know anything about my background and experience, just as I don't know squat about yours. So I would say it's pretty unprofessional, rude and offensive for you to tell someone you know NOTHING ABOUT "If you are not competent enough to maintain an "intact" venomous animal, (one which has not been tortured...err, I mean surgically altered) then perhaps you should settle for a pet less demanding of your faculties...like a Chia Herb Garden Pet...or maybe an Electronic Pet."

 

[MDC_Ophiuchus]

Venomoids are...unethical

Lastly...There is NO SUCH THING as a venomoid surgery which was performed correctly.
That is in itself, an oxy-moron!

This is only your opinion. Nothing wrong with having an opinion, but as David said, don't be passing it off as factual information. It is still only one of many different viewpoints on a controversial issue.

There's lots of things I'd like to say, but unlike some others here, I read the initial post of this thread, and am going to try and honor the OP's wishes to keep this from a heated debate concerning the ethics of venomoids. I think everyone else should do the same and keep the topic at hand.

 

[Gary O]

GBCOP

The reason I bring up the paper work signed by him is this.

David missed the point that the vet is human and can make a mistake. Hence my unloaded gun theary.

How many times do you hear about a person shooting a friend and the person saying I THOUGHT it was unloaded? Alot.

So you getting bit by a void and thinking you can just monitor it sometimes this will not work. Now if it is a said Atrox maybe. But still. You should treat it as a hot bite.

The reason I was given when I asked why they would not sign a contract saying that a snake voided will never produce venom again was liability. Said if it were to happen the person could come back on them.

That was the point. THey are not saying yes this has had the surgery but there is a chance in the future that it could become venomous again.

Milking is a DUMB way to check. It puts you and the snake at risk. I would use a live mouse and forceps.

I could go on and on about why I feel it is wrong. But with PROVEN cases of venomoids becoming hot again. I ask is it really safer as you just stated you would not go to the hospital if bitten. you would monitor it.

You get a rattlesnake void. You feel good about it then next you get an adder of some type then a gabby then jump into cobras. Lots of different venoms there that take different amounts of time to do their thing. When bitten TIME IS AN ISSUE.

Venomoid Inc has shown to me that they are not about safty with FREEHANDLING snakes at shows.

So I ask you are you ready to put your life in the hands of a person you do not even know?

 

[DavidBeard]

Wow...a thread asking for business dealings and not an ethics debate devolves into just that.

Gotta love Fauna lol.

 

[Lucille]

I agree with Gary and would not place my life in the hands of a surgery like that. It's scary enough the stories I've heard about what happens during human surgery.
I do not know that one would need a signed contact though, void means void and if it isn't and you have papers proving the sale of the void, you would seem to have a good cause of action if you live.

 

[WebSlave]

Yeah, reading this stuff, I can't help but wonder if a signed contract is even necessary. Probably venomoids would be suitably covered under the legal concept of STRICT LIABILITY anyway. So anyone engaging in performing venomoids would quite likely be fully responsible for any mishaps caused by their "product" regardless of timeframe or circumstances outside of their direct control. What they are doing is inherently and knowingly risky to their customers.

 

[gbcop]

GBCOP
David missed the point that the vet is human and can make a mistake. Hence my unloaded gun theary.

So you getting bit by a void and thinking you can just monitor it sometimes this will not work. Now if it is a said Atrox maybe. But still. You should treat it as a hot bite.

You get a rattlesnake void. You feel good about it then next you get an adder of some type then a gabby then jump into cobras. Lots of different venoms there that take different amounts of time to do their thing. When bitten TIME IS AN ISSUE.

Venomoid Inc has shown to me that they are not about safty with FREEHANDLING snakes at shows.

So I ask you are you ready to put your life in the hands of a person you do not even know?

Gary,
I did not miss your point about the vet being human, at all! If anything you have solely convienced me NOT to purchase an animal from Venomoid Inc.

And honestly. You are right, it would be stupid to get tagged by a venomoid Atrox and NOT go to the hospital.

And I haven't experienced or seen anyone from Venomoid Inc freehandling snakes, but the way Jeremy keeps responding to concerns is... Well Scary.

Here is a E-mail I received back from him.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
David,
I appreciate the info, but what you sent is no different then someone's "tall tail" story. What I was looking for is a scientific paper or published with research. As for our stand we recommend that they snakes are treated like there venomous counter parts and are tested at least yearly. As I said we have not had a problem in 8+ years. I would tell you that the stories of regrow / regeneration are just that, stories. Most likely a procedure that was not done correctly by a professional or just not done and sold as a venomoid.

Jeremy
www.venomoidinc.com
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

My experience with hot snakes is only limited to copperheads, cotton mouths and the WDB Rattlers. And as much as I adore Albino Monacle Cobras, Puff Adders, Eyelash Vipers, ect. I honestly can't see myself going out and actually purchasing one as I have ZERO training with them. I know some people who mentor with Elapids start out with elapids, but it would honestly be foolish of me with my experience of local venomous animals to make such blind broad jump.

I know the subject of Venomoid's is a highly debated ethical subject and almost everyone in the herp community has an opinon on the subject. I'm glad the members of Fauna assisted me with my homework. I was all for Venomids as it was my unresearched opinon that the procedure was safe and the animal was unable to produce venom from now on. And from everything I've learned here, and the almost exact same response over and over again from Venomoid Inc, I'm not going to be doing business with them or anyone else for a venomoid.

Thanks again Gary and everyone else that contributed to my inquiry,

David Beaver