Venomoids, the right and the wrong.

[adder]

Thanks to the previous poster for illegally using my video to substantiate the fact that venomoid snakes are in fact A/ Not mutilated and in excellent condition and B/ Unable to regenerate venom and C/ That our educational displays comply with the OH and S Act in our legal domain.
Now when the hate poster from Victoria can produce a similar video to show that kids are safe at his shows, send me an email.
PS I am surprised you haven't posted here one of this week's videos of me being chomped on the face by a hungry Taipan or a Tiger Snake as the video you used is "old news".
All the best

 

[skirtinthedirt]

Just curious adder.....

Is the fantasy world you live in a lonely place, or is it populated by fictitious adoring fans who cover the ground you walk on with rose petals and whisper in awe to each other as you part their masses with your greatness?

It's just that as I picture you writing all of these rambling, nonsensical replies to all of the thoughtful, logical questions and comments addressed to you, I am torn between a vision of you wandering alone across a barren desert, suffering wild hallucinations brought on by crippling dehydration and fatigue, and a vision of you in a natty admirals suit, having replaced Merril Stubing as captain of The Love Boat.

Please let me know which scenario is more accurate. It's keeping me up at night.

 

[hadenglock]

You question our expertise in venemoid snakes? If your going to argue something of that nature be aware that there are keepers here who not only keep venemous snakes, but keep non venemous snakes as well. Assuming venemoids fall somewhere in between there I'd say our expertise is reputable.

 

[skirtinthedirt]

Besides, that argument is basically the same as arguing the opinion that kicking puppies is mean to puppies is invalid unless you have experience as a puppy kicker. Ridiculous.

 

[adder]

"Assuming venemoids fall somewhere in between there I'd say our expertise is reputable."

- Wrong!!!

PS Thanks for confirming your lack of expertise!

 

[Fangthane]

Thanks to the previous poster for illegally using my video to substantiate the fact that venomoid snakes are in fact A/ Not mutilated and in excellent condition and B/ Unable to regenerate venom and C/ That our educational displays comply with the OH and S Act in our legal domain.

That's comical. That video shows little more than a worthless excuse for a father putting a young girl in harm's way just to further his own ends.

You've had the last 48 hours to view this thread as a "guest", and that's the best you could come up with? While my past few posts clearly substantiate several things, my list is a bit different than yours.
A)

Definition of MUTILATE
1: to cut up or alter radically so as to make imperfect <the child mutilated the book with his scissors>
2: to cut off or permanently destroy a limb or essential part of : cripple

The picture of your (illegal) surgical hack-job, is the exact definition of what it is to "mutilate" something.

In 2007 the Victoria state government amended the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1986 to ban the removal of venom glands from snakes unless performed for a therapeutic reason by a registered veterinarian

B)
It shows nothing more than those particular snakes ostensibly had their entire venom gland successfully removed, thus, apparently removing their capacity to generate more venom. Even an egotist with a god complex, such as yourself, is capable of botching a surgery for which you have no professional certification.

C)
I find myself wondering if your daughter is a licensed snake handler. I'm no expert in the intricacies of the law, but if she's not, I believe that puts you in violation of the following decision, as it happened in 2011. I think that the following court decision tells a much different story than your self-serving boasts, regarding just how "compliant" that the DSE found your display practices to be.

Sorry for the LOOOONG post.


FULL TRANSCRIPT

Some noteworthy excerpts:

Condition 12 - Venomous snakes (whether or not the individual specimen is capable of a venomous bite) must not under any circumstances be handled or touched by any person other than the holder of this licence or their licensed Assistant without the prior written approval of the Secretary.

Condition 13 - Possession and demonstration of wildlife under this licence must be conducted in a manner and proximity which minimises the risk of injury to any person. Where venomous snakes (elapids) are involved, the demonstration must not be conducted closer than 3m to the audience, except where the licence holder is working in a pit which ensures that members of the public cannot approach, touch or handle the snakes.

Condition 14 - Where venomous snakes (elapids) are involved, only one venomous snake must be demonstrated at a time and all other venomous snakes (elapids) not being demonstrated must be confined to secure enclosures constructed to prevent escape, injury to the public and access by unauthorised persons, except where the licence holder is working in a pit which ensures that members of the public cannot approach, touch or handle the snakes.

Mr Hoser is aggrieved that those conditions have been imposed. On 31 January 2008, he made a request to the Director, Department of Sustainability and Environment, for authorisation under s 28A of the Act for the following :
1 – Permission to hold more than one snake at a time of any taxa, when demonstrating provided that neither the handler nor the public is placed at undue risk.

2 – Permission to approach the public closer than three metres when demonstrating venomous species of snake, provided that neither handler or public is placed at undue risk.

3 – Permission to hand non-venomous reptiles to the public to be handled, including those that have been de-venomised permanently (venomoid) and are therefore also non-venomous and certified by a veterinary surgeon as same, provided that the handler or public is not placed at undue risk.

Clause 3 above also extended to include venomous species with venom intact to persons who 1/ Have signed an appropriate indemnity form, removing liability from ourselves and DSE, 2/ Are over the age of 16 years old and being taught specifically how to handle such snakes, either as a catcher, keeper or practitioner and 3/ Have been appropriately instructed prior to being given the said snakes, as per an application form filled for DSE as sought by them on a new form issued in July 2007 and filled in and filed on or about 31 January 2008.

Section 28A of the Wildlife Act permits the Secretary to give written authorisation to do any of a number of specified things, including to display wildlife if the Secretary is satisfied that the authorisation is necessary for specified purposes. The only sub-section of relevance in these proceedings is s 28A(1)(d) which states :
(d) for the purposes of the management, conservation, protection or control of wildlife or for the purposes of education about wildlife, research into wildlife or scientific or other study of wildlife; or

His request for authorisation was refused. So far as his application to conduct venomous snake handling courses is concerned, authorisation has been given under s 28A(1)(d) subject to conditions. By the end of the hearing only condition 4 was in dispute. It says :
Only those reptiles which are held under Commercial Wildlife (Wildlife Demonstrator) Licence No 12387349-DE may be used in snake-handling courses. Snakes which have been rendered non-venomous by surgery (‘venomoid snakes’) must not be used for snake-handling courses under any circumstances.
Section 86C of the Wildlife Act enables Mr Hoser to apply to this Tribunal for review of the decisions not to grant the authorisations he seeks.
On review, my powers are limited to deciding afresh his requests for authorisation. I have no jurisdiction to review or alter either the prescribed conditions referred to above or the imposition of conditions 12, 13 and 14 on the Commercial Wildlife licences.
My task is to decide on all the evidence and material put to me at the hearing whether I am satisfied that the authorisations Mr Hoser seeks are necessary for purposes set out in s 28A(1)(d).

While the demonstration of snakes with their venom glands removed could potentially reduce safety risks for the Applicant, his assistants and members of the public attending his shows, the Delegate has concerns regarding the manner in which the glands were removed and the legality of the procedures detailed by the Applicant on his website ... Indeed, any authorisation to allow Mr Hoser to handle multiple venomous species of snakes that have been notionally rendered non-venomous through potentially illegal procedures or to allow members of the general public to approach, touch and handle these snakes could be construed as Departmental endorsement of this practice.

He goes on to refer to procedures Mr Hoser carried out on his venomoids and to the history of legislative amendments to the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act referred to earlier.
In Mr Waters’ opinion :
Given that the Applicant does not have formal training or qualifications in surgical or veterinarian procedures (ie tertiary level training) and is not a qualified or registered veterinarian, the Delegate cannot be assured that the operations successfully rendered his snakes non-venomous and completely safe. Also, the Delegate cannot be assured that the removed tissue will not regenerate .... This could potentially result in the animals either retaining or regaining their venomous capabilities, exposing the Applicant, his assistants or members of the public to the risks of venomous snake bite.

Contrary to the Applicant’s claims in his application, the Respondent has no record of any written documentation from any registered veterinary practitioner stating that the snakes which have had their venom glands removed are clearly safe, that the removed tissue will not regenerate under any circumstances and that there is no risk to the Applicant, his assistants or the general public associated with potential bites from his devenomised snakes. Accordingly, all snakes that the Applicant claims to be devenomised must be considered venomous or potentially venomous and therefore dangerous to the public.

In his oral evidence Mr Waters reiterated that he was concerned about people being taught how to handle venomous snakes, with ones that Mr Hoser says are not dangerous when what they need to learn is how to capture and manage ones in real life that are venomous and dangerous. He said people need to leave these courses with a sense of confidence about handling really dangerous snakes. He was concerned that if they were practising on ones that were not, they may gain a false sense of confidence.
In his opinion, it was not necessary for Mr Hoser to use his venomoids. Other courses are conducted using venomous snakes. Aside from those matters, he thought that if Mr Hoser were authorised to use his venomoids, it would send the wrong message given the recent amendments to the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act making it an offence to remove the venom gland. He was concerned about the perception, were he authorised, that his venomoids were endorsed by the Department, which they are not.

Seems pretty clear that you've been in violation of Prevention of Cruelty to Animals Act 1986 - SECT 36

 

[skirtinthedirt]

Dan, if I knew how to give you a little green box for this, I would. Great info.

 

[adder]

Apexpredatorboids
1 – The VCAT judgement/s from which you quote have long been discredited and also overturned by a higher court (in June this year).
Your wilful quoting of false information demonstrates your disregard for the truth.
2 – Our venomoid snakes were made such before Mr McCarthy was able to have the procedure banned in 2007 (most created in 2004).
Your wilful false inference that I have knowingly broken the law, reflects poorly on you and reflects your inability to argue sensibly against venomoids in any reasonable way.
3 – Your energies if channelled for the public good, instead of lies and evil, could make a valuable contribution to the world.
Thank you!

 

[Fangthane]

Apexpredatorboids
1 – The VCAT judgement/s from which you quote have long been discredited and also overturned by a higher court (in June this year).
Your wilful quoting of false information demonstrates your disregard for the truth.
2 – Our venomoid snakes were made such before Mr McCarthy was able to have the procedure banned in 2007 (most created in 2004).
Your wilful false inference that I have knowingly broken the law, reflects poorly on you and reflects your inability to argue sensibly against venomoids in any reasonable way.
3 – Your energies if channelled for the public good, instead of lies and evil, could make a valuable contribution to the world.
Thank you!

1- Verifiable proof, or it never happened. And no, your worthless word doesn't cut it.

2- Not that I'm inclined to believe much of anything you say, however, there was no willful false inference. The procedure is now illegal, so I chose to make such an annotation: "(illegal)". Pretty simple. What's even more funny, is that I'm not even necessarily arguing against venomoids. What I definitely am arguing against, however, is some publicity-craving buffoon with delusions of grandeur doing amateur butchery with very questionable and sub-par procedures. As well as no professional training, as noted in your case brief:

In Mr Waters’ opinion :
Given that the Applicant does not have formal training or qualifications in surgical or veterinarian procedures (ie tertiary level training) and is not a qualified or registered veterinarian,...

I'm also not a fan of the idea that said buffoon is in a position to influence those who are less-informed, and put the young and impressionable in a position where they might actually believe that his own outlandish behavior is something that should be emulated. Again, as is pretty clearly implied by my speculation of a possible corollary between your public attention stunts, and your previously-mentioned increase in bites.

3- Oh, I think my energies are being well-spent, and may possibly be of some small benefit to the public good, right here in this thread. Unlike some, I don't have any deep-seated psychosis which leads me to think that I'm somehow omnipotent, in my capacity effect change. As such, I'll expend my energies when and where I see fit, thank you very much. I think that what small contribution I'm able to make to the public good, I'm doing right here by refuting you.

 

[adder]

ApexPredatorBoids
Lying is not a good form of rebuttal!
All the best

 

[Fangthane]

ApexPredatorBoids
Lying is not a good form of rebuttal!
All the best

Oh, I know. Your countless failed attempts have gone above and beyond in making that abundantly clear. Your posts have been a case study in numerous examples of that particular tactic, and each time is just as transparent as the last. Would you like to know what else would qualify as poor forms of rebuttal? Avoidance and deflection:

1- Verifiable proof, or it never happened. And no, your worthless word doesn't cut it.

We might as well get comfy. I have a feeling this is going to be a long wait.

 

[Lucille]

Interesting entry in Wikipedia:


Hoser is an advocate of venomoid snakes, surgically altered to remove venom, and has published discussion on this topic,[15] and promoted the procedure on his website.[24] These animals are kept as pets, or used in exhibitions to the general public, and the procedure is regarded as controversial.[25] A 2008 government tribunal ruled that Hoser's venomoid snakes cannot be handled by members of the public, due to the risk of the venom glands regrowing. VCAT Deputy President Anne Coghlan found Hoser had no qualifications, no training and produced no scientific evidence to back up his claims.[26]

In 2011 Hoser was convicted and fined $12,000 in the County Court for demonstrating with venomous snakes less than three metres from the public, working in accessible pits and demonstrating in a way that put the animals at risk of theft. Hoser allowed his 10-year-old daughter to be bitten by a taipan and a death adder to demonstrate that his "venomoid" snakes were harmless.[30] The manager of the shopping center where Hoser performed claimed that Hoser's performance was not consistent with his act description and said that Hoser would not be allowed back.[31] Following this incident, the Victorian Department of Sustainability and Environment (DSE) suspended Hoser's commercial wildlife demonstrator license and his authorisation to hold snake-handling courses and use wildlife in film and television.[32] Hoser said that he would apply to the courts for an emergency injunction against this suspension.[32]

Raymond addresses issues a lot like some others. Writes long diatribes and picks fights in efforts to bury stuff he does not want seen.

Now to Snakehandler.

2 – We have statements including from a former employee of yours that you are corruptly protected from prosecution for criminal offences by your friend Glenn Sharp of the DSE, corroborated by statements from another DSE employee.

I sent a link to this thread to Glenn. I'm sure you are prepared to be accountable for the claims you make on this thread.

 

[Snakehandler]

Glenn Sharp is not and never has been a friend, the people you have AVO's in are not and never have been associates, I have never tried to have any procedure banned....this is all a big fantasy you have created in your mind. I wouldn't even know how to start the process or start legal action, as stated before you started legal action on me and fail, once in the magistrates court and twice in the County Court....that's three times by my count. I took the order out on you to stop your defamatory remarks, won in the magistrates court and over turned in the county court....the third time in court was when you attempted to have the transcripts released because you thought I had made a promise to the court which you believe I had broken.....it was REJECTED!

In terms of video, I was made aware of it by others and laughed, considering your 'paper' pain makes snakes bite! Other than that I think the program that ran the video did it justice and I will leave it to others to post, as I have always done!

 

[Snakehandler]

Now lets discuss credibility, during a urban jungle radio call you claimed 10 full time employees had lost their jobs and that you had millions of dollars of business taken from you.....http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tnHW-uiH0Ws

However in your court appearance you could not state exactly how many employees you had, probably 8 casuals and 2 full time (hard to believe given you hold the license and these people have to be licensed under you), and had a turnover of approximatley $150,000.....so the question comes, did you lie in court or on urban jungle radio? If your willing to lie on something like this, what else is a lie?

 

[hadenglock]

Mr. Hoser, you claim that your venomoids are backed by Dr. Funk right? Well as it turned out, my boss, veterinarian Dr. Feinsod just returned from a ARAV conference in Oakland last weekend and after bringing up this topic about venomoids, He said he would email Dr. Funk to confirm that he actually supports the cold torpor method of sedation (which he wont) to ensure that everyones facts are straight. Dr. Funk is a contributor for Dr. Maders book Reptiles medicine and surgery volume 1 and 2. Now coming from Dr. Maders stand on using cold as sedation he totally bashes that idea! So assuming Dr. Funk is a contributor of his book, wouldnt that mean Dr. Funk is NOT a supporter of your methods of devenomizing your snakes? Either way ill come up with an answer here once ive contacted him, i wouldnt want to ruin Dr. Funks reputation if his name was being used in anyway he wouldnt want it....

 

[hadenglock]

"Assuming venemoids fall somewhere in between there I'd say our expertise is reputable."

- Wrong!!!

PS Thanks for confirming your lack of expertise!

Please, enlighten me on how keeping venomoids is completely different from keeping venomous and non-venomous snakes then....

 

[Fangthane]

Please, enlighten me on how keeping venomoids is completely different from keeping venomous and non-venomous snakes then....

Aside from a pathological need to see all of his own undertakings as being of epic and grandiose proportions? I have to imagine that even when he's just cleaning a cage out, his theme song, Ride of the Valkyries, is playing in his mind.

 

[Elapid68]

Skinthedirt (Emily Paine).
15 – You state your employee Paul Fisher was not envenomated by a dangerous Brown Snake when bitten. You have not stated the obvious which is you could only ascertain this by having the man hospitalized and tested using equipment you did not possess, and that it is standard for anyone to be rushed to hospital in the event of a bite from this highly venomous species. To do otherwise would be reckless in the extreme. Fact is Fisher’s handling was at fault and as employer you are at fault for not ensuring your handlers can competently handle the said snakes. To allege the snakes were unduly stressed at the time as a reason for the bite is patently ridiculous.


18 – Now I suggest you and your lackeys stop stalking, harassing and posting false and defamatory statements against myself and allow us to deal with our core business of wildlife research, education and conservation including through the only guaranteed safe venomous snake shows in Australia.

Mr Hoser,
You have now posted this incedent on a couple of sites, including your website and the above post and probably serveral others that I'm not aware of. You were not there, you have no idea what went on and the complete fairytale you wrote about it on your website is bordering, if not full deformation.

You state in item 18 of you post, as quoted above "Now I suggest you and your lackeys stop stalking, harassing and posting false and defamatory statements against myself". You seem to have one rule for you and one for everyone else. You're the first to winge and carry on whenever someone mentions your name in a negitive way, but at the same time you feel it's well within your right to write complete fantasy about anyone you feel like.
As far as I can recall, I have never spoken publically or posted any comments about you, so I would appreciate you stop publishing my name and/or activities in either printed or electronic form.

Regards
Paul Fisher

 

[aliensnakeman]

s just wondering what the death ratio is between Venomous and Venomoid? just curious

 

[Fangthane]

"Death ratio"? Not sure what you mean.