Venomous classifieds

[BR1980]

I've noticed more and more, lately, that there are many solicitations for illegal transactions being posted in the venomous classifieds. Offers to buy/sell in illegal states, and requests for illegal shipping methods are fairly commonplace. I think these posts should be removed, and the poster warned/reprimanded. These types of things just don't look good for our hobby as a whole, and the AR people don't need any more ammo. Thanks for your consideration.

 

[WebSlave]

Sorry, but that puts management here in an awkward and untenable position of having to KNOW at any given time what the laws are in each state and locality. So we would virtually have to annotate each and every ad with a notice indicating which states such animals are legal for purchase and be shipped to as well as shipped from. If we were wrong about our information, that could subject us to legal liability stemming from that incorrect notice.

Also, by us doing so there would also be the implicit "guarantee" that if an ad remains on this site (meaning if someone reads it before it is deleted) then the reader can presume that it is legal because it IS here and there is no notice to the contrary.

Sorry, not going to happen. It is up to each buyer and seller to make their own determinations of any legalities involving the transactions they undertake.

 

[Tim Cole]

There are a few of us that do watch for these things. As a responsible venomous keeper/breeder I am always watching out for issues like this.

I am a strong believer in us governing our own and not needing the government to do so.

Did you see some ads that needed some attention?

 

[BR1980]

To Webslave, I appreciate your response, and understand your position on the subject. I really hate to see these types of posts on public forums, but I admit that I am ignorant of the legal ramifications involved in what I had suggested. Perhaps you could post a sticky in the venomous classifieds that lists the state by state laws regarding venomous reptiles, as well as one describing the legal method to ship venomous reptiles.

To Tim, it's definitely important to police ourselves on these type of issues, otherwise someone else will do it for us. I notice multiple ads/posts every week soliciting illegal transactions. One particular string of posts by a member yesterday is what finally inspired my original post. This member asked in 5 different classified ads to have venomous snakes fedExed to their door. This is so blatantly illegal, it almost makes me think that it is some kind of a setup. The last thing the reptile community needs right now is the negative publicity a successful setup of this nature could bring about.

A link to one of the ads.
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=210653

Take care.

 

[Tim Cole]

Brian,
Thanks for the link. As you can see, I replied. This guy may also be Arizona Fish & Game running a sting. If he replies to my post that discussion should probably move to a new and different thread such as a the venom forum or law forum.

 

[hhmoore]

Brian,
Thanks for the link. As you can see, I replied. This guy may also be Arizona Fish & Game running a sting. If he replies to my post that discussion should probably move to a new and different thread such as a the venom forum or law forum.

I have to admit that was one of my first thoughts when I saw the multiple posts....not specifically AZF&G, but law enforcement in some way, shape, or form. That's why I didn't make any post, or send a PM. I, too, get frustrated seeing so many people soliciting or selling things they shouldn't have....I wish the various agencies that check here were MORE active in their pursuits, honestly. (Partially because I am jealous and resentful - I want lots of stuff that I used to keep, but I know my local laws & don't want to deal with the processes...so I'm stuck wanting. Wanting those things I can't have, and wanting people flaunting their efforts to circumvent the laws to get caught)

 

[BR1980]

Thanks Tim. If it is, in fact, a sting, I certainly hope no one took the bait.

 

[WebSlave]

To Webslave, I appreciate your response, and understand your position on the subject. I really hate to see these types of posts on public forums, but I admit that I am ignorant of the legal ramifications involved in what I had suggested. Perhaps you could post a sticky in the venomous classifieds that lists the state by state laws regarding venomous reptiles, as well as one describing the legal method to ship venomous reptiles.

Sigh......

 

[brd7666]

I'm not sure if it's a sting operation or not. He did just join, and all five of his posts are identical. He must of copied and pasted each one. He might just be a guy who could care less about the laws, or he could be someone trying to make trouble. Either way, I would stay away. He says his name is Mark Jones, in his user profile, but then calls himself Scott in his posts. If you follow this link he calls himself Scott Waddell. He is lying about something for sure. I think he lied about his name here on Fauna.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/for/2220654730.html

 

[Tim Cole]

And for trying to help with this situation, I received an infraction. Sigh...

So much for governing our own.

All 3 responses to http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229423 came from States that severely regulate keeping venomous and are very difficult to be permitted in.

An easy solution would be for the responder to STATE they are permitted and can provide a permit number to the seller.

I'm not saying these people ARE NOT permitted but do to the high profile of these states and their regulations, they need to be upfront that they are permitted.

It's just like when I mention having American Alligators, Texas Tortoises, and Alligator Snappers. All of these are severely regulated in Texas so I make an effort to mention I have a "Zoological Permit" with the State that allows me to have them.

Otherwise it APPEARS that illegal sales and transaction are not discouraged on this site.

Any other ideas?

 

[WebSlave]

As far as I am aware, it is not illegal for such ads to be posted here. As far as I am aware, it is not illegal for management of this site to NOT point out any illegality involved in any transaction that two parties consider engaging in. As far as I am aware, it is not illegal for us to choose to NOT get involved in other people's legal issues.

We hope for, and expect by default, that everyone will do their own research concerning the legality and avisability of who they buy from and sell to, and what it is they are buying and selling. We are NOT anyone's safety net for the business transactions they choose to engage in. To do otherwise exposes US to legal liability that I just flatly refuse to take on as a responsibility.

Quite frankly, if the issues keep arising with off topic replies within classified ads, I will simply shut down that capability completely to rid myself and the moderators of that headache.

 

[hhmoore]

And for trying to help with this situation, I received an infraction. Sigh...

So much for governing our own.

All 3 responses to http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=229423 came from States that severely regulate keeping venomous and are very difficult to be permitted in.

An easy solution would be for the responder to STATE they are permitted and can provide a permit number to the seller.

I'm not saying these people ARE NOT permitted but do to the high profile of these states and their regulations, they need to be upfront that they are permitted.


Also, just as an aside, why should a responder have to affirm their status (licensed/permitted/whatever) to anybody that isn't selling to, or buying from them?
It's just like when I mention having American Alligators, Texas Tortoises, and Alligator Snappers. All of these are severely regulated in Texas so I make an effort to mention I have a "Zoological Permit" with the State that allows me to have them.

Otherwise it APPEARS that illegal sales and transaction are not discouraged on this site.

Any other ideas?

Tim, you got the infraction for continuing after I stepped in.
I appreciate the point you made, AND why you made it. I don't really even have a big problem with you posting your initial comment in the ad.....BUT, that comment resulted in two other off topic posts, in direct response to yours. Since I was addressing those members, I felt it appropriate to also address the person that "started it"...the one that made the post to which they were responding.

This same topic arises in other areas of the classifieds as well...I understand that venomous regulations and restrictions are near and dear to you, but I don't view them as any more of an issue than those regarding large constrictors, monitor lizards, or even ball pythons.

As a side note, why should a respondant have to declare their (permit/license) status to anybody other than the person buying or selling?

 

[hhmoore]

As long as I'm here, how would such a thing be enforced? There are counties, cities, and towns that have more stringent requirements than their respective States, and it simply isn't reasonable to expect a handful of people to effectively police that. Heck, I live in NY, and won't claim to know the legalities in all parts of the state.

 

[ApexJake]

Quite frankly, if the issues keep arising with off topic replies within classified ads, I will simply shut down that capability completely to rid myself and the moderators of that headache.

Shut down the capability for what exactly?

Its a catch 22 of individual responsibility vs general negative influence. I understand and worry from both sides.

Maybe a craigslist style of classified posting could be used, with all replies sent directly to the OP and an ebay style option for public viewing of approved comments/questions? Thats an off the top of my head solution addressing off topic posts and abusive ad bumping.

In the past I do recall hhmoore contacting me via PM with his concerns and questions about legalities, and I commend him for going about it in a polite manor. IMHO More should follow suite rather than post presumptive comments.

 

[WebSlave]

Shut down the capability for what exactly?

ANY replies to classified ads........ That will end the headaches we are getting from bumping ads and off topic flame fests erupting within classified threads.

If those headaches remain burdensome for staff here, then it will be prudent for me to end them in the most efficient way possible.

 

[ApexJake]

ANY replies to classified ads........ That will end the headaches we are getting from bumping ads and off topic flame fests erupting within classified threads.

If those headaches remain burdensome for staff here, then it will be prudent for me to end them in the most efficient way possible.

Agreed. Just like craigslist, but some capability of showing answered questions would be helpful to the purpose of a classified add.

Burdensome for the OP and those interested in the ad as well...

 

[WebSlave]

Agreed. Just like craigslist, but some capability of showing answered questions would be helpful to the purpose of a classified add.

Burdensome for the OP and those interested in the ad as well...

It is not very likely that I will be inclined to put a lot of custom coding into this effort. It will be very simple and cut and dried. The ability to reply to classified ads directly within the thread will cease. All correspondence between buyer and seller will have to take place via PM, email, or other avenues provided by the person placing the ad.

Of course, if history around here is any guide, I will get inundated with emails from members asking "Why can't I reply to any of the ads?"

I gave everyone the ability to choose themselves whether or not they wanted replies to their ads. At that time I felt that was best rather than me making the decision globally for everyone. But if that isn't working out, then I really have no other choice in the matter.

 

[ApexJake]

It is not very likely that I will be inclined to put a lot of custom coding into this effort. It will be very simple and cut and dried. The ability to reply to classified ads directly within the thread will cease. All correspondence between buyer and seller will have to take place via PM, email, or other avenues provided by the person placing the ad.

Thats understandable. Is there an easy way to allow only the OP to post replies on his/her own ad to address what could be a dozen of PMs all asking the same typical question?
I imagine answering the same question too many times would get annoying. I dont see people simply being concise with the details in a basic ad.. craigslists is a good example of just that.

 

[scaledverts]

Thats understandable. Is there an easy way to allow only the OP to post replies on his/her own ad to address what could be a dozen of PMs all asking the same typical question?
I imagine answering the same question too many times would get annoying. I dont see people simply being concise with the details in a basic ad.. craigslists is a good example of just that.

The OP could just modify the original add with details that address the questions being asked. Editing the add does not result in a bump of the add and is permitted as much as you would like (as far as I know).

 

[Tim Cole]

An easy solution (in my eyes) that doesn't involve Webslave and Mods...

It's all perception.

If you are responding to an ad for a species that requires a permit, state you have the required permit. This shows responsibility for both parties involved.

Acknowledging that permits are required goes a long way to showing that we know the laws and are within compliance.

I'm permitted to keep anything in Texas including Threatened and Endangered Species so I am not worried about myself. But I am constantly leading the charge to keep herper rights from being squashed by stupid and uneducated laws and restrictions.

I've been keeping herps for over 45 years and moved from Illinois to Texas to continue my passion of keeping venomous snakes responsibly. In the early 70's I wrote the State of Illinois asking about the availability of permits to keep venomous snakes. The response I got was a xerox copy of the fines that would be levied against me if I was found to have them. Nothing mentioned of available permits.

Most of you have seen the states that are dominoeing to stricter laws and regs due to one or two incidents involving an exotic species.

I for one, would like to see this stop and am only asking for people to be more perceptively responsible and quit adding fuel and fodder to the forces (HSUS, PETA, Uneducated Politicians, etc) that are against us.

I'm sorry if I was presumptuous in the post that started this but there has a been quite a few postings lately that prompted my response. Obviously I am not the only one, since I was not even the OP for this thread.

I don't blame Rich for not wanting to deal with this and it wasn't my intention for him or the Mods to do so.