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Vermiculite in stool
- Thread starter No1snotsucker
- Start date
Dan Lubinsky
New member
Hey Tokay, The Sporothrix fungi rarely causes a problem as I remember but if you have personal experience with something naturally you are more in tune to it. Look at the sand posts that come up on a regular basis. I lost two geckos almost 15 years ago; one to playsand and one to "guaranteed so fine it won't cause impactions" Jurassic Sand, and it's still a sore spot. Others use it and haven't had a problem. Anyway, you'll probably live.
Manhattan Herps
PROUD Christian
Dan Lubinsky said:
well if you guys dont see a post by me within the next week you'll know i've croaked ;D
Dan Lubinsky
New member
Listen Mister, there's an amphibian forum for croaking.
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
and from an environmental remediation worker/supervisor
that mine in libby montana , sent out tainted vermiculite to just about every state in the union and pretty much contaminated the entire U.S. ......and much of the vermic out there says "asbestos free" but this can NOT always be true due to some "botched" or hurried inspection and testing ! as for leopard geckos health w/ asbestos i would worry more about my own health as it takes 10 to 40 (rarely the lesser) years for ANY asbestos-related disease to "rear its ugly head " , and depends on the individual ! you could have lived next to that mine and never have a problem , where as someone w/ a very small amount of exposure can contract , one of many types of cancer in various body locations , or asbestosis , or mesothelioma , in a matter of 10-40 years down the road ! i do not use it , but my lungs are chock full of the stuff ,and im darn sure i dont need any more ! if you do use vermiculite , perlite , or ANY dusty - material it is a very good idea to take it outside and wet it before even opening it in your home ! dust or any particulate in general is bad for the lungs and can cause the same exact problems (only the diseases have different names)! perlite is volcanic -glass and the dust/fibers from it can be NO better since most minerals cannot be expelled -fully by your body ! asbestos fibers are the worst since they remain airborne for up to 3 days ,are very light ,small , and pretty much needle-shaped , and you would never be able to see even a very-large quantity of the "dust" in the air , so it is best not used IMO or used very carefully and NOT inside your home while it is dry ! some of the vermiculite out there DOES STILL contain "stos" (for short)
that mine in libby montana , sent out tainted vermiculite to just about every state in the union and pretty much contaminated the entire U.S. ......and much of the vermic out there says "asbestos free" but this can NOT always be true due to some "botched" or hurried inspection and testing ! as for leopard geckos health w/ asbestos i would worry more about my own health as it takes 10 to 40 (rarely the lesser) years for ANY asbestos-related disease to "rear its ugly head " , and depends on the individual ! you could have lived next to that mine and never have a problem , where as someone w/ a very small amount of exposure can contract , one of many types of cancer in various body locations , or asbestosis , or mesothelioma , in a matter of 10-40 years down the road ! i do not use it , but my lungs are chock full of the stuff ,and im darn sure i dont need any more ! if you do use vermiculite , perlite , or ANY dusty - material it is a very good idea to take it outside and wet it before even opening it in your home ! dust or any particulate in general is bad for the lungs and can cause the same exact problems (only the diseases have different names)! perlite is volcanic -glass and the dust/fibers from it can be NO better since most minerals cannot be expelled -fully by your body ! asbestos fibers are the worst since they remain airborne for up to 3 days ,are very light ,small , and pretty much needle-shaped , and you would never be able to see even a very-large quantity of the "dust" in the air , so it is best not used IMO or used very carefully and NOT inside your home while it is dry ! some of the vermiculite out there DOES STILL contain "stos" (for short)
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
sorry this was soooo long
but its definately one of my concerns for others in the hobby
but its definately one of my concerns for others in the hobby
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groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
and i should mention
for any of us that dont know (many people do not even know what asbestos is ) we are all exposed to some amount of asbestos-fibers on a DAILY basis through the air , water , probably even food etc . some of us will be affected in years to come , others will not !
for any of us that dont know (many people do not even know what asbestos is ) we are all exposed to some amount of asbestos-fibers on a DAILY basis through the air , water , probably even food etc . some of us will be affected in years to come , others will not !
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
that EPA website is a complete joke
after reading that , and all of the differences in what they teach me once a year in an EPA approved training course ! they might as well be called the " Truth Protection Agency " right below it goes on to say there IS asbestos that is released from the vermiculite ...and asbestos is a known-carcinogen ! no research has linked health effects w/ this material ? BS very conflicting story they have there dont ya think ? many of those shipment from montana , were "hush-hush" "no no asbestos here ! whats that ? " even our own government helped to cover-it-up ........and there is plenty of tainted vermiculite still around today even sold accidentally (i would think) as "asbestos-free" since it was sold to them as such , when some "inspector" decided he needed to ship it out as "clean " to make a buck ! ALL vermiculite CAN (and some DOES ) contain asbestos
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Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
I did a bit more research on the subject of asbestos in Vermiculite. I have now read conflicting accounts of there being a danger of it containing asbestos or that the amount of asbestos poses a danger. I do know a few things for certain, and some things not for certain and, as you will see I nonetheless was able to make up my mind on whether or not to go back to using Vermiculite:
The asbestos scare regarding commercially available vermiculite started or rose up again within the past 5 or 6 years in my area, and in Herpdom.
In that time, my local Home Depots (and many, if not all, local garden centers) stopped selling horticultural Vermiculite.
They have not started selling it again as far as I aware (at least not Home Depot as far as I know).
The government, specifically the EPA, did some studies about possible contamination of Vermiculite Insulation products and Vermiculite garden products.
There is no known minimum amount of asbestos needed to cause diseases such as cancer. In other words any minimal contact with asbestos potentially can later cause disease. Sure a one time exposure may not necessarily cause lung disease, but it may be possible if not probable.
Asbestos fibers remain in the lungs forever (as long as your forever lasts anyway).
It is unlikely that currently marketed Vermiculite contains high levels of asbestos, but it is possible. Some such products did contain small or trace amounts of asbestos as recently as 2000. The EPA did a study that found asbestos (in at least trace amounts) in 15% of the samples tested, or 8 out of 54. There was another test that found asbestos in 17 of 38 samples – a tad more than .45%. That figure alone is scary enough for me not to want to use Vermiculite but; I’ll admit I am a whimp.
I wonder if either 38 or 54 samples was a broad enough sample to perform a truly scientific test considering all of the bags of vermiculite out there. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermfacts.pdf). Another study (or the same study cited in another report?) used only 38 Vermiculite products, and found asbestos in 17 of the samples! How the percentages have changed – that is asbestos in just above 45% of the samples. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermiculite.pdf).
Of the testing wherein 54 samples tested, only .001 grams of vermiculite was tested from each sample and the EPA admits there may have been higher levels of vermiculite in other samples from the same bag. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermiculite.pdf).
While the EPA states there is only minimal risk to the home user (in gardening and planting) it nonetheless recommends using other types of soil conditioners (again they were talking about Vermiculite for gardening applications, which is the type we buy for use with herps) such as Perlite, sawdust, peat or bark. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermfacts.pdf).
As to where and when asbestos is found in Vermiculite:
Asbestiform is not the only type of asbestos material found in vermiculite. There have been at least 4 types of asbestos found within Vermiculite from the Libby Mine and they are called Libby amphiboles. These are made up of: actinolite, tremolite, winchite and richterite asbestos. (http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/insulationreport.pdf). The primary type found in vermiculite from the Libby Mine was tremolite asbestos. (se: http://www.epa.gov/region01/homechecklist/qa.html). While Asbestiform may have been found in trace elements this is not true of tremolite asbestos which was abundant in the vermiculite.
Vermiculite Insulation has been shown to possibly contain up to 2% of asbestos (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/insulationreport.pdf). So if you used a bag of 100 grams of vermiculite, it could conceivably contain up to 2 grams of asbestos. Of course the threat is not as high now that the Libby Mine has been closed. Yet there is still a potential threat and, the threat is from asbestos mined from other than the Libby mine:
So, note that the EPA is saying there are mines other than the Libby mine which contain Vermiculite that has asbestos in it. This indicates the threat is still out there in those other mines. They also say the threat is minimal; however in the same paragraph they say such is an assumption that will be confirmed or denied by ongoing or future testing! Great, let’s depend on future testing to say that the stuff poses a minimal threat right now!
Asbestos does not go away. It can accumulate in your home over time if you continually use products containing it, such as Vermiculite. It is known that indoor ambient levels can be increased by 50 times because of such buildup. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/oppt.pdf)
So based on all of that good stuff, that I found over the course of the last 2 hours or so: I am not about to start using vermiculite again. My personal opinion is that no one should take the chance of asbestos contamination by using this stuff.
As to the concern over Sphagnum Moss and Sporotrichosis; I can not say I want to contract it. Late last spring I got a rash/lesions on my arms, and legs. I had been working in the garden in shorts (something unusual for me to wear). The exact things I was working with were: top soil, cow manure, and Sphagnum Peat Moss. Around the same time I also prepared eggs laying boxes and egg incubation chambers, all with long cut Sphagnum Moss. I got a very itchy rash/lesions some weeks later. They were diagnosed as some sort of fungus from working in gardens, and treated with a cream. According to a site I checked the diagnosis should have included a swab of the lesions (it was not done) and the treatment should have been with pills (also not done) but the name sounds vaguely familiar and I sure handled lots of Sphagnum Moss and Sphagnum Peat Moss. I may just have to nuke any sphagnum moss I use again in my microwave. I am not recommending anyone else do the same until I let you know if it blows up or not!
All the best,
Glenn B
The asbestos scare regarding commercially available vermiculite started or rose up again within the past 5 or 6 years in my area, and in Herpdom.
In that time, my local Home Depots (and many, if not all, local garden centers) stopped selling horticultural Vermiculite.
They have not started selling it again as far as I aware (at least not Home Depot as far as I know).
The government, specifically the EPA, did some studies about possible contamination of Vermiculite Insulation products and Vermiculite garden products.
There is no known minimum amount of asbestos needed to cause diseases such as cancer. In other words any minimal contact with asbestos potentially can later cause disease. Sure a one time exposure may not necessarily cause lung disease, but it may be possible if not probable.
Asbestos fibers remain in the lungs forever (as long as your forever lasts anyway).
It is unlikely that currently marketed Vermiculite contains high levels of asbestos, but it is possible. Some such products did contain small or trace amounts of asbestos as recently as 2000. The EPA did a study that found asbestos (in at least trace amounts) in 15% of the samples tested, or 8 out of 54. There was another test that found asbestos in 17 of 38 samples – a tad more than .45%. That figure alone is scary enough for me not to want to use Vermiculite but; I’ll admit I am a whimp.
I wonder if either 38 or 54 samples was a broad enough sample to perform a truly scientific test considering all of the bags of vermiculite out there. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermfacts.pdf). Another study (or the same study cited in another report?) used only 38 Vermiculite products, and found asbestos in 17 of the samples! How the percentages have changed – that is asbestos in just above 45% of the samples. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermiculite.pdf).
Of the testing wherein 54 samples tested, only .001 grams of vermiculite was tested from each sample and the EPA admits there may have been higher levels of vermiculite in other samples from the same bag. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermiculite.pdf).
While the EPA states there is only minimal risk to the home user (in gardening and planting) it nonetheless recommends using other types of soil conditioners (again they were talking about Vermiculite for gardening applications, which is the type we buy for use with herps) such as Perlite, sawdust, peat or bark. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/vermfacts.pdf).
As to where and when asbestos is found in Vermiculite:
Asbestiform is not the only type of asbestos material found in vermiculite. There have been at least 4 types of asbestos found within Vermiculite from the Libby Mine and they are called Libby amphiboles. These are made up of: actinolite, tremolite, winchite and richterite asbestos. (http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/insulationreport.pdf). The primary type found in vermiculite from the Libby Mine was tremolite asbestos. (se: http://www.epa.gov/region01/homechecklist/qa.html). While Asbestiform may have been found in trace elements this is not true of tremolite asbestos which was abundant in the vermiculite.
Vermiculite Insulation has been shown to possibly contain up to 2% of asbestos (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/insulationreport.pdf). So if you used a bag of 100 grams of vermiculite, it could conceivably contain up to 2 grams of asbestos. Of course the threat is not as high now that the Libby Mine has been closed. Yet there is still a potential threat and, the threat is from asbestos mined from other than the Libby mine:
(see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/oppt.pdf).
So, note that the EPA is saying there are mines other than the Libby mine which contain Vermiculite that has asbestos in it. This indicates the threat is still out there in those other mines. They also say the threat is minimal; however in the same paragraph they say such is an assumption that will be confirmed or denied by ongoing or future testing! Great, let’s depend on future testing to say that the stuff poses a minimal threat right now!
Asbestos does not go away. It can accumulate in your home over time if you continually use products containing it, such as Vermiculite. It is known that indoor ambient levels can be increased by 50 times because of such buildup. (see: http://www.epa.gov/asbestos/oppt.pdf)
So based on all of that good stuff, that I found over the course of the last 2 hours or so: I am not about to start using vermiculite again. My personal opinion is that no one should take the chance of asbestos contamination by using this stuff.
As to the concern over Sphagnum Moss and Sporotrichosis; I can not say I want to contract it. Late last spring I got a rash/lesions on my arms, and legs. I had been working in the garden in shorts (something unusual for me to wear). The exact things I was working with were: top soil, cow manure, and Sphagnum Peat Moss. Around the same time I also prepared eggs laying boxes and egg incubation chambers, all with long cut Sphagnum Moss. I got a very itchy rash/lesions some weeks later. They were diagnosed as some sort of fungus from working in gardens, and treated with a cream. According to a site I checked the diagnosis should have included a swab of the lesions (it was not done) and the treatment should have been with pills (also not done) but the name sounds vaguely familiar and I sure handled lots of Sphagnum Moss and Sphagnum Peat Moss. I may just have to nuke any sphagnum moss I use again in my microwave. I am not recommending anyone else do the same until I let you know if it blows up or not!
All the best,
Glenn B
riverjop
Feather Ranch
Get a load of this! next week in our local "PANIDA" theater there showing a movie called "LIBBY, MONTANA" the documentary about asbestos contamination in the small Montana town. Huh?...dosn't that sound like a blockbuster? I wonder who's playing the lead....hmmmmm could it be Tom Cruise.....or maybe Bruce Willis?
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
or Ronald Reagan ? LOL
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
thanx
that tremolite (if i remember correctly ) is the most dangerous type of "stos " ! oh yea there are other mines also in other countries , where they still mine and use asbestos ! and just like everything else some of their products DO make it into the U.S. one i know for sure is 12 X12 floor-tile ! it has been said in the past that ONLY the 9X9 tiles (not made anymore in that size ) contain asbestos up to %2 .....BUT i have performed many many abatements of 12 X12 tiles that came in from other countries and were used to replace the old 9X9 tile ........so 10 or so years ago someone like myself removed the 9X9 tile , and they laid fresh 12X12 tiles they thought were "clean" that actually contain up to ten times as much asbestos as the first tiles did , and im there again scraping them up (cough) funny huh ?
that tremolite (if i remember correctly ) is the most dangerous type of "stos " ! oh yea there are other mines also in other countries , where they still mine and use asbestos ! and just like everything else some of their products DO make it into the U.S. one i know for sure is 12 X12 floor-tile ! it has been said in the past that ONLY the 9X9 tiles (not made anymore in that size ) contain asbestos up to %2 .....BUT i have performed many many abatements of 12 X12 tiles that came in from other countries and were used to replace the old 9X9 tile ........so 10 or so years ago someone like myself removed the 9X9 tile , and they laid fresh 12X12 tiles they thought were "clean" that actually contain up to ten times as much asbestos as the first tiles did , and im there again scraping them up (cough) funny huh ?
Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
more...
Back in 1990 when I was finishing up my Master's Degree in Chemical Engineering (I got my BS in Materials Science), the dispute over asbestos in vermiculite was a huge thorn in the EPA's side, and it was quite a subject of study and dissertation at the University. The Libby, Montana mine was the focal point of the discovery, and of course, the general public's reaction was that of panic and rage! So much so, that retailers such as Home Depot (as Glenn stated) pulled the products off the shelf permanently while the US Government ran around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to brush the mess under a rug.
Fact is, 'asbestos' and vermiculite are found in geologically similar locations, and it is completely possible to find minute traces of each in the other. Because of this, the mining operations are under strict scrutiny. There is still considerable debate over 'how much' asbestos exposure poses the risk of carcinogenic toxicity, and what the acceptable standards are, but we do know that the chronic exposure and inhalation of the micro-particles of asbestos in the air had been directly linked with a certain type of lung cancer. Now, even though there is very little risk of exposure to asbestos in the garden variety of vermiculite, the vast majority of garden supply stores will still not carry it on their shelves aout of fear of public reproach.
Fascinating subject for a former scientist like me, but I can see that this could be the beginning of another type of Substrate War! LOL!
Back in 1990 when I was finishing up my Master's Degree in Chemical Engineering (I got my BS in Materials Science), the dispute over asbestos in vermiculite was a huge thorn in the EPA's side, and it was quite a subject of study and dissertation at the University. The Libby, Montana mine was the focal point of the discovery, and of course, the general public's reaction was that of panic and rage! So much so, that retailers such as Home Depot (as Glenn stated) pulled the products off the shelf permanently while the US Government ran around like a chicken with it's head cut off trying to brush the mess under a rug.
Fact is, 'asbestos' and vermiculite are found in geologically similar locations, and it is completely possible to find minute traces of each in the other. Because of this, the mining operations are under strict scrutiny. There is still considerable debate over 'how much' asbestos exposure poses the risk of carcinogenic toxicity, and what the acceptable standards are, but we do know that the chronic exposure and inhalation of the micro-particles of asbestos in the air had been directly linked with a certain type of lung cancer. Now, even though there is very little risk of exposure to asbestos in the garden variety of vermiculite, the vast majority of garden supply stores will still not carry it on their shelves aout of fear of public reproach.
Fascinating subject for a former scientist like me, but I can see that this could be the beginning of another type of Substrate War! LOL!
groovygeckos
GroovyGeckos.com
that is just too funny marcia , but true !
Glenn Bartley
Herper & Shootist
To WAR - To WAR - well maybe over defense of home and country, political transgressions, taking away or trampling my rights, missing beer, missing strawberries (for all you Bogart fans), the honor of a lady - but never over substrate.....
superhypo
New member
reply
I have used vermiculite for over a year and have not noticed any problems but only use it with adult geckosNo1snotsucker said: