Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

[PSReptiles]

"They are running a "herp mill" to supply wholesale markets, and clearly do not care about the animals they are producing or their small customers. Intentionally breeding genetically flawed animals and selling them without any warning is grossly irresponsible and anyone who is thinking about buying from them deserves to know about it."...

This is certainly a gross overuse of inflammatory language. How easy it is to stand on the sidelines, offer uninformed opinions, and throw stones! This speaks more to your lack of credibility than that of VMS. VMS has been in business for over 25 years and would not have made it this long had they run their business as you describe above. We are a small customer of theirs, having spent several hundred of dollars on their animals over the past three years and have received both high quality perfect animals and excellent customer service. It is ridiculous that a situation such as this that could have been easily solved with the offered refund and apology has been blown so out of proportion.

Well, everyone is entitled to their opinions, but how I received three geckos with major tail kinks and a deformed head out of six is in IMO ridiculous.

Never has this happened before, and no where on their site did they state the conditions of these animals. They had to have known about the tail kinks for sure as well as they state...they are not genetic (which has yet to be proved) and they breed them all the time. I think they should write down ANY issue next to the gecko they are trying to sell. It is completely irresponsible especially if they HAVE been in the business for years.

Also if you have read anything on their site they used to only sell large groups of reptiles to pet stores for profit. They didn't even sell to individuals....and again IMO I have seen what happens to the animals at pet shops. I would never sell to them if I honestly cared about my animals and not just making money off whatever I can sell out of them.

Chelsea

 

[Tony C]

This speaks more to your lack of credibility than that of VMS.

I lack credibility because I believe that breeding deformed animals in mass quantities and selling them without warning is unethical? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, it's beyond ridiculous.

 

[PSReptiles]

For one thing, these people are not a "herp mill."

Secondly, the tail kinks are not genetic. Most believe they are in certain ball python morphs, but not in leopard geckos. I've had leopard geckos with tail kinks whose parents do not have any kinks whatsoever. I've also seen tail kinks develop slowly over time (not a breakage). Plus, ignoring my few experiences, I'm much more apt to trust a guy who breeds tons of leopard geckos about the genetics of tail-kinking.

The deformed head may have been an oversight, but accidents happen. One incident does not mean they purposely/regularly "sell deformed animals." Even the best breeders can make mistakes, and they acknowledged that. You asked for your money back on the gecko with the deformed head, and they refunded you promptly--your two initial e-mails did not ask for them to send a replacement.

Now, I do believe it is in his best interest to refund you the money for the tail-kinked geckos or replace them...which is what he offered when he said you could send back the whole order for a full refund, which I think is quite reasonable. But you refused it, so...don't know what you expect them to do....

Quite frankly, I think it would have been more prudent to wait until the entire situation was resolved (or taking waaay too long than it should to get it resolved) before posting a Bad Guy thread because we don't yet know if he will just refund you for the kinked geckos. And if he does, then I don't see why he is a Bad Guy.

Tail kinks have never been proven to be genetic or not in leopard geckos.

Read my other posts to see why I refused the entire group going back.

I am in the middle of asking for a replacement for the bell albino, but if they say no to that...this is done and over with, but I still wanted to tell other consumers to make sure they know what they are getting as they do not mark the geckos with these issues on their website and consider them all "perfect". (unless they have started after I recommended they should)


Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

I lack credibility because I believe that breeding deformed animals in mass quantities and selling them without warning is unethical? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, it's beyond ridiculous.

+1

I guess that people would rather keep buying deformed animals without knowing it instead of me posting this and telling them what I just got out of my group of six purchased from VMS, and that they do NOT mark them on their web page AND consider nothing wrong with selling these tail kinked animals not marked.

Chelsea

 

[KelliH]

+1

I guess that people would rather keep buying deformed animals without knowing it instead of me posting this and telling them what I just got out of my group of six purchased from VMS, and that they do NOT mark them on their web page AND consider nothing wrong with selling these tail kinked animals not marked.

Chelsea

I agree with you that animals with kinked tails and any sort of deformity that makes it imperfect should be marked a such. However, like I said before, we as breeders are not perfect and sometimes overlook stuff. In my opinion, the fact that he offered you a full refund was the right decision on his part.

 

[PSReptiles]

I agree with you that animals with kinked tails and any sort of deformity that makes it imperfect should be marked a such. However, like I said before, we as breeders are not perfect and sometimes overlook stuff. In my opinion, the fact that he offered you a full refund was the right decision on his part.

Yes, I am not complaining about the refund.

I am just letting people know that maybe they tend to over look things a little bit more than some other breeders might so you may want to ask for more pictures/about the animal you and interested in instead of just trusting the photos they have on their site.
I still don't really know how you can over look the -head- issue when you have to TAKE the animals photo for the site, but maybe I am just more observant myself when it comes to things like that.

 

[PSReptiles]

Yes, I am not complaining about the refund.

I am just letting people know that maybe they tend to over look things a little bit more than some other breeders might so you may want to ask for more pictures/about the animal you and interested in instead of just trusting the photos they have on their site.
I still don't really know how you can over look the -head- issue when you have to TAKE the animals photo for the site, but maybe I am just more observant myself when it comes to things like that.

written by Chelsea

 

[zorro]

If you do visit there webpage though and read a lot about them, they didn't even sell to individuals a while back, but to the pet shops themselves for making a profit. Otherwise why not sell to individuals? I personally wouldn't send my geckos off to the pet stores to die, where most of them do.

How long have you been with reptiles, by the looks of your grammar and your name calling not very long. Are you just trying to impress your girlfriend or just trying to get more money from them? These people don't sell to pet shops never have. I can get several dozen to come here and tell you how happy they are with their purchases form VMS. You are very wrong trying to challenge a breeder like Sean that was in this business for the love of the reptiles since before you where most likely born.
John

 

[FallenAngel]

I haven't read everything yet but the entire thing about the tail kinks sounds like absolute B.S. to me. They're actually saying that because some tail kinks are produced one year and not the next proves it to not be genetic? Are you kidding me? Think of two Mack Snows het. for albino, are they going to necessarily produce a SS albino every year? No! Tail kinks, IMO, are recessive. We have one female who we've bred who produced 2 babies with tail kinks. I e-mailed the breeder and found that the breeding female we have had siblings with tail kinks. Sounds like it's genetic and recessive to me!!

 

[Lizard Lair]

If you do visit there webpage though and read a lot about them, they didn't even sell to individuals a while back, but to the pet shops themselves for making a profit. Otherwise why not sell to individuals? I personally wouldn't send my geckos off to the pet stores to die, where most of them do.

VMS used to advertise sales to individuals all the time on Kingsnake, plus they sell at the local reptile shows to individuals. I have watched his website for years and geckos have always been available to the general public.

Not all pet shops are bad! Some actually take proper care of their herps. I have a pet shop in my town I occasionally sell to and I have heard from people who have bought my geckos from those shops - how much they love the gecko! And they have asked for more. I also have a pet shop in my town I will NEVER sell to. Any healthy reptile coming to their shop gets a severe infestation of mites from their cages. I care about my reptiles a lot. So why would you assume that the pet shops Sean deals with are death traps? Or assume he cares so little about his geckos he would allow them to go to a bad shop?

Either way I think it was just ridiculous to receive such a deformed gecko along with three others with major tail kinks that were NOT marked on the website.

I also would want to be informed of a tail kink and it's to bad you weren't. But, the breeder offered immediate full refund.

 

[Tony C]

These people don't sell to pet shops never have.

Really? Then why do they state on their website that "we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well."

Amazing how people are registering just to comment on this thread...

 

[PSReptiles]

How long have you been with reptiles, by the looks of your grammar and your name calling not very long. Are you just trying to impress your girlfriend or just trying to get more money from them? These people don't sell to pet shops never have. I can get several dozen to come here and tell you how happy they are with their purchases form VMS. You are very wrong trying to challenge a breeder like Sean that was in this business for the love of the reptiles since before you where most likely born.
John

This is entirely my opinion on what happened to me when purchasing from VMS, insulting me has nothing to do with what we are taking about here. If you would go to their web site they STATE they sell to pet shops. Thank you.

 

[PSReptiles]

This is entirely my opinion on what happened to me when purchasing from VMS, insulting me has nothing to do with what we are taking about here. If you would go to their web site they STATE they sell to pet shops. Thank you.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

Really? Then why do they state on their website that "we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well."

Amazing how people are registering just to comment on this thread...

+1 Thank you, if people would do some research before opening their mouth it would be nice.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

VMS used to advertise sales to individuals all the time on Kingsnake, plus they sell at the local reptile shows to individuals. I have watched his website for years and geckos have always been available to the general public.

Not all pet shops are bad! Some actually take proper care of their herps. I have a pet shop in my town I occasionally sell to and I have heard from people who have bought my geckos from those shops - how much they love the gecko! And they have asked for more. I also have a pet shop in my town I will NEVER sell to. Any healthy reptile coming to their shop gets a severe infestation of mites from their cages. I care about my reptiles a lot. So why would you assume that the pet shops Sean deals with are death traps? Or assume he cares so little about his geckos he would allow them to go to a bad shop?



I also would want to be informed of a tail kink and it's to bad you weren't. But, the breeder offered immediate full refund.

I would imagine they were death traps because on the website the reason they switched over to selling to more individuals over time was because...

"While this concept worked well initially, we began to discover that few retailers could provide accurate care information to the customer. Indeed, many seemed unable to care for our animals properly themselves."

No why you would send them to a pet store like that I don't know, it doesn't sound like it was a good pet store to me. *shrug* But again this is mainly just about their need to be responsible and mark their animals with the deformities. If they do that, I wouldn't say anything else about them, even though I might not agree with a lot they seem to actually be doing.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

I haven't read everything yet but the entire thing about the tail kinks sounds like absolute B.S. to me. They're actually saying that because some tail kinks are produced one year and not the next proves it to not be genetic? Are you kidding me? Think of two Mack Snows het. for albino, are they going to necessarily produce a SS albino every year? No! Tail kinks, IMO, are recessive. We have one female who we've bred who produced 2 babies with tail kinks. I e-mailed the breeder and found that the breeding female we have had siblings with tail kinks. Sounds like it's genetic and recessive to me!!

That is one of my points regarding the way they irresponsibly breed, they can not say they have proved tail kinks to not be genetic as it has never really been shown to go either way in leopard geckos.

They should be -marked- as "tail kinked geckos" next to the photo no mater what they think is "normal" or just a "random occurrence." I think the consumer has the right to be the judge of that and also has the right to be able to decide whether they want a tail kinked/deformed gecko or not.

Chelsea

 

[zorro]

This is entirely my opinion on what happened to me when purchasing from VMS, insulting me has nothing to do with what we are taking about here. If you would go to their web site they STATE they sell to pet shops. Thank you.

You are taking it out of context once again this is what it actually says:


About us

About VMS

VMS is located in the Colorado Rocky Mountains near Westcliffe, Colorado. VMS is wholly owned and operated by Sean & Monica Niland.

We've been involved in herpetoculture and the pet industry since 1977. In 1990, we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well.

While this concept worked well initially, we began to discover that few retailers could provide accurate care information to the customer. Indeed, many seemed unable to care for our animals properly themselves. As a result, we have begun offering our animals directly to retail customers as well. Retail customers can enjoy receiving the same quality animals we are known for, as well as getting first pick on 'special' animals. Additionally, retail customers receive the full benefit of our skills and knowledge to ensure their success with the reptile of choice.

John

 

[hhmoore]

How long have you been with reptiles, by the looks of your grammar and your name calling not very long. Are you just trying to impress your girlfriend or just trying to get more money from them?

What, exactly, does grammar have to do with one's level of experience with reptiles? Granted, I wish more people used better grammar - it would make posts a lot easier to read - but I don't think there is a necessarily a correlation with experience; other than the fact that the long timers tend to be older, and are often more formal in their writing patterns. Being over, say, 35, does not necessarily equate to extensive reptile experience, though.
And what's with the insults? Should they be taken as an indicator of YOUR experience?

These people don't sell to pet shops never have. I can get several dozen to come here and tell you how happy they are with their purchases form VMS.

If your grammar (syntax, and punctuation) is correct <cough, laugh> it would seem that you are saying that you can get several dozen pet shops to come here...but your preceding statement is that these people don't sell to pet shops. What are you really trying to say?

You are very wrong trying to challenge a breeder like Sean that was in this business for the love of the reptiles since before you where most likely born.

Are you really suggesting that a breeder is beyond reproach, simply due to some number of years in the business? People make mistakes, it's common ground for all of us...it's how we deal with them that matters. Sure, they offered a refund, and that's the right thing to do; but that doesn't mean that not making a buyer aware of defects is acceptable, or that the error should just be brushed off because they don't feel it is genetic.

 

[hhmoore]

Damn - messed up the quote tags. The second paragraph should look like this:

These people don't sell to pet shops never have. I can get several dozen to come here and tell you how happy they are with their purchases form VMS.

If your grammar (syntax, and punctuation) is correct <cough, laugh> it would seem that you are saying that you can get several dozen pet shops to come here...but your preceding statement is that these people don't sell to pet shops. What are you really trying to say?

 

[PSReptiles]

You are taking it out of context once again this is what it actually says:


About us

About VMS

VMS is located in the Colorado Rocky Mountains near Westcliffe, Colorado. VMS is wholly owned and operated by Sean & Monica Niland.

We've been involved in herpetoculture and the pet industry since 1977. In 1990, we focused on producing quality reptiles at reasonable prices for wholesale distribution to pet retailers. We sold only to legitimate licensed dealers; we did not sell our animals to individuals. This single-minded approach allowed us to concentrate on volume production of many species while protecting the pet retailers' business as well.

While this concept worked well initially, we began to discover that few retailers could provide accurate care information to the customer. Indeed, many seemed unable to care for our animals properly themselves. As a result, we have begun offering our animals directly to retail customers as well. Retail customers can enjoy receiving the same quality animals we are known for, as well as getting first pick on 'special' animals. Additionally, retail customers receive the full benefit of our skills and knowledge to ensure their success with the reptile of choice.

John

Explain to me what was out of context with what I just said? You just posted exactly -what- I said and honestly are helping my cause I think. Everything Tony C and myself have stated is right there like we said it was...plain and simple, so thank you.

This is all far beyond the point anyway, the point being they don't even mark their animals deformed on their website and clearly have no problem with this or selling them without mentioning it.

Chelsea