Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

[PSReptiles]

One last question or just something to think about... The leo that has the kinked tail. What happens if for whatever reason it decides to drop its tail and then you get a regenerated tail. Is it now even less perfect because it has a regen?

I will answer this one last thing for you.

No, it doesn't make it MORE imperfect in my eyes next to having a kinked tail, but it would still be considered imperfect and even reputable breeders make regens next to the photos of the leos that have them that they are trying to sell. (Those can be more obvious to point out, but even they are marked none-the-less)

I would want to know about a regen just as much as a tail kink, but I would say tail kinks are worse IMO than just the regen with a gecko off pure bloodlines and no hidden genetic faults.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

I will answer this one last thing for you.

No, it doesn't make it MORE imperfect in my eyes next to having a kinked tail, but it would still be considered imperfect and even reputable breeders make regens next to the photos of the leos that have them that they are trying to sell.

Should be mark

Chelsea

 

[chongorojo]

[/QUOTE] Sean offered you a full and total refund... and you turned it down. All you had to do was send them back to him. We are all human... mistakes happen.... and we dont catch everything, but he tried to make it right. You wouldnt let him. [/QUOTE]

I don't understand how such a major deformity could have been missed when the animal was packed up for shipment? I mean its head is totally miss shaped!! I am not going to get in to the whole kinked tail business genetic or not, but come on my girlfriend who does not know anything about leos said "OMG did that thing get stepped on" so that animals problem should be obviously blatant to some one that breeds them for a living....


[/QUOTE] As a breeder.... the more animals we get... the less time we get to spend on each and every animal daily. Case in point... lets say you only have 6 animals. You can take them out daily and play with all 6 for 15mins or so each a day. When you get large enough that you can turn your passion into a full time job and support yourself... there is no longer any play time. You get to see each and every animal a few times a week while feeding and preforming cage maintenance. Its just the nature of things. Does this mean we love our animals any less than someone with 6 animals. NO it doesnt. [/QUOTE]

Later in this post you say you only have 6 animals now? Im confused.....

[/QUOTE] With this being the case.... sometimes mistakes are missed. What sets us appart is how we handle these mistakes. Sean tried to make it right with you by offering a full and total refund. You declined. [/QUOTE]

If you have so many animals that you cant take the time to separate the DEFECTIVE animals that you SHOULD NOT be selling to ANYONE than its time to scale back or hire CAPABLE help. From what your stating above I get that its OK to "miss" major deformities and ship them to customers??? This I do not get? I work 60 hours a week and keep over 100 snakes mostly breeders and I can tell you what Is in perfect condition and what has a nipped tail before I even open their tub. And on top of knowing I personally take the time to give the animal a thorough check over including looking in their mouths and palpating for poopies that might be in the animal before shipping.... Why in gods name would you take an animal out of its tub and throw it in a box and ship it out without giving it a thorough check up before hand (isnt shipping stressful enough on the animals??) This shows me carelessness in the person that shipped out the animal whether they breed a pair of animals per year or thousands....



Now I dont know if the claim of VMS sending out a defective gecko is true or not but your statements above are ridiculous.

 

[chongorojo]

Sorry above is a reply to a post by souther wolf (first time quoting sorry)

 

[PSReptiles]

Sean offered you a full and total refund... and you turned it down. All you had to do was send them back to him. We are all human... mistakes happen.... and we dont catch everything, but he tried to make it right. You wouldnt let him. [/QUOTE]

I don't understand how such a major deformity could have been missed when the animal was packed up for shipment? I mean its head is totally miss shaped!! I am not going to get in to the whole kinked tail business genetic or not, but come on my girlfriend who does not know anything about leos said "OMG did that thing get stepped on" so that animals problem should be obviously blatant to some one that breeds them for a living....


[/QUOTE] As a breeder.... the more animals we get... the less time we get to spend on each and every animal daily. Case in point... lets say you only have 6 animals. You can take them out daily and play with all 6 for 15mins or so each a day. When you get large enough that you can turn your passion into a full time job and support yourself... there is no longer any play time. You get to see each and every animal a few times a week while feeding and preforming cage maintenance. Its just the nature of things. Does this mean we love our animals any less than someone with 6 animals. NO it doesnt. [/QUOTE]

Later in this post you say you only have 6 animals now? Im confused.....

[/QUOTE] With this being the case.... sometimes mistakes are missed. What sets us appart is how we handle these mistakes. Sean tried to make it right with you by offering a full and total refund. You declined. [/QUOTE]

If you have so many animals that you cant take the time to separate the DEFECTIVE animals that you SHOULD NOT be selling to ANYONE than its time to scale back or hire CAPABLE help. From what your stating above I get that its OK to "miss" major deformities and ship them to customers??? This I do not get? I work 60 hours a week and keep over 100 snakes mostly breeders and I can tell you what Is in perfect condition and what has a nipped tail before I even open their tub. And on top of knowing I personally take the time to give the animal a thorough check over including looking in their mouths and palpating for poopies that might be in the animal before shipping.... Why in gods name would you take an animal out of its tub and throw it in a box and ship it out without giving it a thorough check up before hand (isnt shipping stressful enough on the animals??) This shows me carelessness in the person that shipped out the animal whether they breed a pair of animals per year or thousands....



Now I dont know if the claim of VMS sending out a defective gecko is true or not but your statements above are ridiculous.[/QUOTE]


+1

But what do you mean right there at the end? Are you asking me if this is in fact true or not, because I don't even know HOW you could photshop something like that in multiple pictures to where it would look the same. >_<

I also am not going to EVER do that to a breeder just for refunds or something. Those pictures are in fact real and it's very true she was shipped to me like that. I didn't like smash her head myself or anything then go running off to them, I would know that was MY fault and not anything the breeder should have to deal with. I even posted the tail kink pic just to back up that at least one of them had in fact been kinked for proof. Again...not photoshopped.

Chelsea

 

[chongorojo]

My end sentence was to mean that I am not placing blame or judgement about the situation and only commenting on Southern wolf's Ignorance. (and I would never judge until I hear both sides of any story) I would hope that anyone that ships ANY live animal would give great consideration of whether or not
1 it is healthy and in condition for the amount of stress its about to endure and
2 would THEY want to receive that animal if they were on the other end.


And as for you not alerting VMS of this BAD GUY post that you made take responsibility for you actions especially if you hope to do business in the herp world with respect from the rest of us that do. I believe that most of the users here will agree that
If YOU post a BAD GUY thread on the BOI YOU and only YOU should be the one that tells the subject of YOUR post that is calling them a BAD GUY that YOU did such a thing to their business and reputation not someone else and give them the chance to make it right if and when they don't that is when you should take it here.

VMS offered reconciliation for their error and that is good business, Shipping out an animal that is not in excellent condition could have occurred by numerous different situations or oversights BUT they did offer to make it right.....and you assuming that just because VMS is a huge breeder that they have no compassion for their animals and that they would euthanize an animal that is not fit for sale is just plain ignorant. you have no grounds for that judgement.

one thing for you to think about.

Did you ever think that maybe VMS had a new employee packing animals and packed an animal that was never supposed to be shipped out EVER By accident? Did the pattern match enough with the animal that was posted for you to be sure its the same animal but from a deceptive angle?

 

[Southern Wolf]

Brian... I dont know where you think I said I only have 6 animals. I have close to 200 and its constantly growing. Earlier in this thread I said I bought around 16 off of Rich. I also stated that my leo count was now down to around 8 breeders.

I agree the mis-shapen head should have never of made it out the door. When I posted that I was refering to the tail kink.

 

[FallenAngel]

If you will take a moment to think about everything I have said... it will make some sense....even if you dont agree with me.... I do have some valid points.

You have valid points that do nothing but add tangents to this thread. Like stated before, you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing.

 

[JordanAng420]

I agree the mis-shapen head should have never of made it out the door. When I posted that I was refering to the tail kink.

Oversight, mistake, whatever you want to call it...it was a BIG one.
It shouldn't have made it out the door you're right! And Chelsea already explained back in post #5 that she wouldn't have said BOO if it weren't for the mis-shapen head.

It was the head that sent me over the edge as the tail kinks I wouldn't have even MENTIONED otherwise. They actually were more or less just proof that they were sold to us with the kinks in this thread. (picture of at least one ect).

So I don't understand why the arguments continue...?

 

[PSReptiles]

My end sentence was to mean that I am not placing blame or judgement about the situation and only commenting on Southern wolf's Ignorance. (and I would never judge until I hear both sides of any story) I would hope that anyone that ships ANY live animal would give great consideration of whether or not
1 it is healthy and in condition for the amount of stress its about to endure and
2 would THEY want to receive that animal if they were on the other end.


And as for you not alerting VMS of this BAD GUY post that you made take responsibility for you actions especially if you hope to do business in the herp world with respect from the rest of us that do. I believe that most of the users here will agree that
If YOU post a BAD GUY thread on the BOI YOU and only YOU should be the one that tells the subject of YOUR post that is calling them a BAD GUY that YOU did such a thing to their business and reputation not someone else and give them the chance to make it right if and when they don't that is when you should take it here.

VMS offered reconciliation for their error and that is good business, Shipping out an animal that is not in excellent condition could have occurred by numerous different situations or oversights BUT they did offer to make it right.....and you assuming that just because VMS is a huge breeder that they have no compassion for their animals and that they would euthanize an animal that is not fit for sale is just plain ignorant. you have no grounds for that judgement.

one thing for you to think about.

Did you ever think that maybe VMS had a new employee packing animals and packed an animal that was never supposed to be shipped out EVER By accident? Did the pattern match enough with the animal that was posted for you to be sure its the same animal but from a deceptive angle?

No, I don't think it was a new employee error as it was pictured and up for sale all along, but maybe they didn't look at it because it WAS an employee packing the animal. I again say that no matter how many animals you do have though, you should know what is deformed and what isn't. (marked on your webpage)

Yes, it is the EXACT same animal as was photoed. I can say that without any doubt what so ever.


Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

My end sentence was to mean that I am not placing blame or judgement about the situation and only commenting on Southern wolf's Ignorance. (and I would never judge until I hear both sides of any story) I would hope that anyone that ships ANY live animal would give great consideration of whether or not
1 it is healthy and in condition for the amount of stress its about to endure and
2 would THEY want to receive that animal if they were on the other end.


And as for you not alerting VMS of this BAD GUY post that you made take responsibility for you actions especially if you hope to do business in the herp world with respect from the rest of us that do. I believe that most of the users here will agree that
If YOU post a BAD GUY thread on the BOI YOU and only YOU should be the one that tells the subject of YOUR post that is calling them a BAD GUY that YOU did such a thing to their business and reputation not someone else and give them the chance to make it right if and when they don't that is when you should take it here.

VMS offered reconciliation for their error and that is good business, Shipping out an animal that is not in excellent condition could have occurred by numerous different situations or oversights BUT they did offer to make it right.....and you assuming that just because VMS is a huge breeder that they have no compassion for their animals and that they would euthanize an animal that is not fit for sale is just plain ignorant. you have no grounds for that judgement.

one thing for you to think about.

Did you ever think that maybe VMS had a new employee packing animals and packed an animal that was never supposed to be shipped out EVER By accident? Did the pattern match enough with the animal that was posted for you to be sure its the same animal but from a deceptive angle?

Oh, and I do want to say again though...not to argue or anything, but to get everyone else on the same page. I probably posted this IN the wrong thing. I said this, but it's getting lost way back there now and people probably wont even read it or find it to see what it says.

I though the BAD GUY thing had to do with my opinion or whatever gripe someone might have with a certain business ect and that was pretty much how it sounded as I was picking between the titles.(information or inquires didn't seem quite right then because I had no question)

Maybe it SHOULD have just gone under inquire/s...but I can not change it now as I very much would like to since yes, they acted and offered me the refund for the lot of the geckos. I am just generally unhappy with all that has happened, but not saying they didn't try to fix the matter so far.

Chelsea

 

[chongorojo]

Then if it was the EXACT same animal there Needs to be some explaining going on as to why it was sold that way as that one should never have been up for sale UNLESS it was on a special needs list (as some people do want to care for a disfigured or special needs pets). Did you step up and let them know that you posted this thread?



Gotcha Kevin I miss understood both of your posts and I apologize.

 

[PSReptiles]

Then if it was the EXACT same animal there Needs to be some explaining going on as to why it was sold that way as that one should never have been up for sale UNLESS it was on a special needs list (as some people do want to care for a disfigured or special needs pets). Did you step up and let them know that you posted this thread?



Gotcha Kevin I miss understood both of your posts and I apologize.

They have been informed, but they probably will not be reading soon. (so, yes I "stepped up", wasn't trying NOT to). Usually they e-mailed me once a day around the afternoon.




Also I just wanted to say for this thread since I went back to their site...if you look at almost ALL the leo sunglows up for sale they have noticeably kinked tails that are not marked as having such. Also one has what looks like some kind of eye deformity, but again the way the picture is...it's hard to say one way or another about this.

I didn't notice these leos before I bought my own, as I was only looking at pictures of what I was directly interested in getting. If you also visit the fat tailed gecko page, one has what looks to be a serious under bite where you can see inside the bottom jaw a little bit. It too is not marked for having any problem. I think there -might- be one more with a slight under bite too, but again I can not be certain on these things as the pictures are not exactly the best up there/up-to-date. It would just prove they don't mark them if you checked them out NOW.

Maybe after all this they will start to mark their animals as deformed, especially really bad ones such as the head deformities which i feel you'd HAVE to be aware of :/


Chelsea

 

[Southern Wolf]

Gotcha Kevin I miss understood both of your posts and I apologize.

No worries man.

 

[Python Dreams]

Whats up in the Leopard Gecko world? Arguing about wether kinking is genetic? Good enough to add to breeding stock after VMS's extensive breeding and decision that it is not genetic?
KelliH,
I've seen you post alot in this forum and seem to have a hard line stance against any sort of neglect or wrong doing with the Leos... Didnt someone ship out two Leopards with cuts and got banned from your forum? With some harsh words about there husbandry, etc... But lets get this straight... Since youve done business with someone for 10 years, how they treat their Leos is irrelelvant? Breeding kinked Leopard Geckos because they think its not genetic? Sending out misrepresented Geckos with kinked tails and deformed heads? All you have to say is that they did right by offering a refund? Breeders arent perfect? Do you breed kinked tail geckos? Could you have accidentally shipped out a Leo with a deformed head? Wow!
SouthernWolf,
Are you arguing with the poster like she did something wrong? Breeders wont take pics now? Maybe BHB doesnt take pics (or will take years to get), but I dont know where you get your information? I guess quality animals are not a concern of yours?
PSReptiles,
I wouldnt worry to much about the remarks from their friends and customers! Says alot more about them, then thay could say about you!

 

[pamelacan]

I lack credibility because I believe that breeding deformed animals in mass quantities and selling them without warning is unethical? I'm not even sure how to respond to that, it's beyond ridiculous.

Tony, there is not one person that I know of who would not completely agree with your belief as stated above, but the implication that VMS does that is a wild claim that is completely unwarranted, undeserved, and appears to be a flimsy attempt to make an emotional appeal for an untenable position. Unless you have been to their facility and collected hard data that show conclusively there is a disproportionate ratio of abnormalities to normalities being mass produced, then you are getting your exercise jumping to erroneous conclusions and would be better off to remain silent on that point.

 

[Python Dreams]

Pamelacan,
Is this better?

I lack credibility because I believe that breeding deformed animals and selling them without warning is unethical?

Dont want to get all caught up with that mass word!

 

[KelliH]

There really shouldn't be anymore arguments on this, it's very simple. The thread was not created to discuss whether or not the problem was handled incorrectly, the only point of focus is the problem itself. The pictures don't depict anything wrong with the geckos, and neither do the descriptions. ANY person looking to buy a leopard gecko, or any reptile for that matter, expects to receive an animal that does not have any visible or known issues that set them apart from the norm. Tail kinks, whether they be genetic or from problems with incubation, are NOT normal. Head deformities are NOT normal. For those that have been customers of theirs for several years and have not had any issues, that's great. That doesn't mean that the problem discussed here (again, not how they deal with what happened but the fact that it happened or is happening) is null and void.

Of course the issue isn't null and void, however the fact of the matter is that those of us that have had fantastic dealings with VMS can also come post about those experiences here (Thanks Rich BTW). It's also a fact that they informed the customer that had they known the Bell female had the head deformity she would never have been sent out, period, and she was offered a refund in full.

Sean has his opinion about tail kinks, fine. It's been brought up here, the point has been made about that. He doesn't feel it is genetic. I happen to feel that in most cases he is correct but some kinks are genetic. I feel certain of this because of the many years spent outcrossing the original Patternless leos and Het Patternless leos before we were able to consistently produce Patternless without tail tip kinks. Sean has a differing opinion and has had different experiences.

I personally would not breed a leo with a tail kink that it hatched with unless it was part of some extremely rare and/or special project (like the original Patternless were back in the day).

 

[KelliH]

Why would you think all of this is not the truth? You think I photo shopped my photos and that my story isn't entirely real?

I can't tell you how wrong you are...those are real pictures and I feel that getting four geckos with deformities out of six is utterly ridiculous. Say what you want about it, but this is how it happened and I have my opinion on how they should sell their animals if when you plan on getting perfect ones and then when they arrive -that- many are deformed.

Chelsea

So send them all back for a refund. If you are truly concerned about their being genetic tail kinks etc in their lines then why would you want to keep all of the animals (even the perfect ones)??

 

[KelliH]

KelliH,
I've seen you post alot in this forum and seem to have a hard line stance against any sort of neglect or wrong doing with the Leos... Didnt someone ship out two Leopards with cuts and got banned from your forum? With some harsh words about there husbandry, etc...

Let's see here... first of all the person that was banned from my website sent a gecko out with a pretty major injury and mbd (he admitted he knew about the injury prior to shipping and still shipped the gecko out). His resolution was to send out two additional geckos, one of which had a fairly large sore on it's back. VMS has offered this lady a full refund which she has declined. VMS did not send out neglected or injured animals. It's not the same situation.

But lets get this straight... Since youve done business with someone for 10 years, how they treat their Leos is irrelelvant? Breeding kinked Leopard Geckos because they think its not genetic? Sending out misrepresented Geckos with kinked tails and deformed heads? All you have to say is that they did right by offering a refund? Breeders arent perfect? Do you breed kinked tail geckos? Could you have accidentally shipped out a Leo with a deformed head? Wow!

Yeah, let's get this straight. I never said in any of my posts that just because I have done business with VMS for 10 years that how they treat their leos is irrelevant. Nope, never said it. I never said breeding kinked tailed geckos is ok. Never said that either. What I said was that mistakes are made and a full refund was offered, which is more than the above "gentleman" you are referring to that was banned from my website offered and delivered.

To answer your questions, no of course I do not make a habit of breeding kinked tail geckos and no I do not think I would have missed a head deformity such as what was shown in the photo here. What I would have done with such an animal upon it hatching is none of your business but suffice it to say the gecko would never have been for sale on my website. I have however sent out missexed geckos in the past, geckos that had a toe missing, and Enigmas that my customers have not been happy with. I've always gone above and beyond what 90% of the breeders I know would do in similar situations, but I guess that's part of the reason I'm just Kelli Hammack that still breeds out of a room in my house and struggles every month to pay my bills and not "insert nameless more financially successful breeder here".

So you can stop it right now with judging me for my opinion on this situation. I make good on my own deals and I have a right to state my experiences with VMS in the past and my opinions about the situation here, just like anyone else does.