Bad Guy VMSherp, Monica and Sean Niland

[Python Dreams]

I never said in any of my posts that just because I have done business with VMS for 10 years that how they treat their leos is irrelevant.

That's true! In fact, originally you only stated that all he needs to do is offer a refund! You didnt feel the need to comment on any bit of the other ridiculous parts of this transaction! Screw the fact that he misrepresented multiple animals. Is it o.k. to send out kinked/deformed animals to an unknowing customer as long as you offer a refund afterwords? I mean the customer might take the time off work to wait for the shipment... Could maybe not be able to sleep with excitement about the animals they have coming... Then they get sent kinked and deformed geckos? Thats fine, just take more time to repack them, figure there shipping needs, pay to have them shipped (shipping reptiles adds stress to me until I hear they are safe), and then wait for your refund! Thats great business! What was I thinking?

I never said breeding kinked tailed geckos is ok.

Well, unless it is part of a rare project!
As far as your business goes, I dont doubt that you go above and beyond. That is what surprised me by your lack of concern and damn near advertising there GREAT business practices! You mention how another knowingly sent out a gecko with cuts and MBD (which is awful), but I guess you feel VMS is not qualified enough to notice a head deformity or kinked tails? Therefor, all is perfect since they offered a refund!

So you can stop it right now with judging me for my opinion on this situation.

Your opinion on this situation is all I have to go on... Do I think you would send out less than perfect geckos? No. Do I think if you mis-sexed, missing toe, color off from picture, or any other type of problems (your fault or not), that you would go above and beyond to handle them? Yes. Do I think that your lack of concern over misrepresentation of kinks and deformities has anything to do with past or current business dealings and/or friendships? Yes! Definitely Yes!

 

[ToshaMc]

Whether you feel it's genetic or not you just don't send out kinked, deformed or imperfect animals without disclosing that before money changes hands. Certainly every animal should be checked prior to shipping in which case it should have been noted and confirmed with buyer before shipping. That there was a refund offered is all good and fine but the situation shouldn't have occurred in the first place.

This might be OT but if the tail were to be dropped would it regenerate kinked as well?

 

[JordanAng420]

This might be OT but if the tail were to be dropped would it regenerate kinked as well?

That's a really good question actually. I'd like to know that answer too.

 

[KelliH]

That's true! In fact, originally you only stated that all he needs to do is offer a refund! You didnt feel the need to comment on any bit of the other ridiculous parts of this transaction! Screw the fact that he misrepresented multiple animals. Is it o.k. to send out kinked/deformed animals to an unknowing customer as long as you offer a refund afterwords? I mean the customer might take the time off work to wait for the shipment... Could maybe not be able to sleep with excitement about the animals they have coming... Then they get sent kinked and deformed geckos? Thats fine, just take more time to repack them, figure there shipping needs, pay to have them shipped (shipping reptiles adds stress to me until I hear they are safe), and then wait for your refund! Thats great business! What was I thinking?

Well, unless it is part of a rare project!
As far as your business goes, I dont doubt that you go above and beyond. That is what surprised me by your lack of concern and damn near advertising there GREAT business practices! You mention how another knowingly sent out a gecko with cuts and MBD (which is awful), but I guess you feel VMS is not qualified enough to notice a head deformity or kinked tails? Therefor, all is perfect since they offered a refund!

Your opinion on this situation is all I have to go on... Do I think you would send out less than perfect geckos? No. Do I think if you mis-sexed, missing toe, color off from picture, or any other type of problems (your fault or not), that you would go above and beyond to handle them? Yes. Do I think that your lack of concern over misrepresentation of kinks and deformities has anything to do with past or current business dealings and/or friendships? Yes! Definitely Yes!

What I was trying to convey in my first post in this thread was that my experiences with VMS over many years have all been positive, and my opinion on how he handled the situation was that he handled it the proper way by offering a full refund. I was posting from either my laptop or G1 phone in the middle of a reptile show I was vending at, and I didn't have time right then to get into a discussion about the tail kinks. I was simply stating my experiences and my opinion of how he handled the situation he and his customer were in.

Of course I am concerned about the tails kinks and it not being noted on his website when an animal has one. That's why I have already posted this-

I agree with you that animals with kinked tails and any sort of deformity that makes it imperfect should be marked a(s) such. However, like I said before, we as breeders are not perfect and sometimes overlook stuff. In my opinion, the fact that he offered you a full refund was the right decision on his part.

and this-

Sean has his opinion about tail kinks, fine. It's been brought up here, the point has been made about that. He doesn't feel it is genetic. I happen to feel that in most cases he is correct but some kinks are genetic.

and this-

To answer your questions, no of course I do not make a habit of breeding kinked tail geckos

I have already stated that yes, any kinked tail geckos should be marked as such on the website. The information has been posted here on the BOI and if potential buyers come here and do a search the information is all here. What exactly would you like me to do about Sean and his opinion on tail kinks and the fact that he does or does not mark them as kinks on his website? I don't control the leopard gecko business. Sean does not advertise, nor does he post on my website. I guess I'm just kind of confused about why it is that you and I are even having this discussion.

Yes, if I hatched out a one of a kind leopard gecko with a kink at the tip of the tail I would breed the gecko anyway and work on outcrossing the morph! What would you do??? If that makes me unethical in some people's eyes I really don't give a rat's backside. I know who I am and I am real comfortable with myself and my morals and ethics when it comes to reproducing reptiles.

 

[PSReptiles]

So send them all back for a refund. If you are truly concerned about their being genetic tail kinks etc in their lines then why would you want to keep all of the animals (even the perfect ones)??

If you would have read my other post...THIS is why I would not send them back for the complete refund. (Was e-mailed this today by VMS and it confirms my suspicions)



Good morning, it's another fine Monday morning here, hope you are having the same. Mondays are yucky regardless of whether you have a regular job or own your own company, it's still 'back to work'.....

I honestly have no idea how that albino got past us. Admittedly, we have been incredibly busy the last few months. Business volume has increased dramatically, I'm bogged down with trying to rewrite our entire web site using a new language, and we've had a very productive year with larger numbers of hatchlings than is usual. I suppose all of that adds up to just an excuse, we'd have removed the sale listing and euthanized it immediately if we'd noticed it as it's certainly not our policy nor desire to send such an animal out. I'm somewhat surprised nobody spotted it while listed on the web site or that you did not notice it when ordering either. So I guess it wasn't incredibly apparent, at least when younger, as many people evidently missed it. In any event, I apologize that it got to you, and I refunded your money immediately after Monica explained it to me. She also immediately went in and spent a very long time examining all our other geckos for similar defects and found only a couple with minor tail kinks.

Such a response seems like good business practice to me. But I see now in your letter, that you do not want the refund but would rather receive another gecko. I have no problem with that and if you wish to undo the refund as you suggest and send me the stock number of the gecko you would like, I can ship it out on Tuesday for arrival on Wednesday, same as before. I will of course, also have Monica triple check the gecko before departure. You'll need to let me know pretty quickly on that in order to make the shipping deadline for this week, but it can also be delayed until next week if you miss deadline.


Sean Niland

VMS Professional Herpetoculture
e-mail: [email protected]
website: www.vmsherp.com

I am happy with this refund for the one gecko, the tail kinks just added to the problem, but had I received just them and not the deformed head I never would have contacted them to complain.

The deformed head was what took the cake. Also I am not going to send her back so they can kill her! She functions just fine and will have a good home with me even if she might not breed later on. I don't feel just trading animals around like inanimate objects is really nice. She is in my care now, and she is sweet even if she has her deformity. I am not going to kill her after she made it this far. (30 grams) I -do- love my animals.


Anyway now, this will be done and over with after Tuesday, but I really hope they start marking their geckos. If you didn't check my couple of posts before this I WOULD. Go look at the geckos I have listed...one looks like it's eye is completely deformed and it's still up for sale unmarked.

Chelsea

 

[KelliH]

If you would have read my other post...THIS is why I would not send them back for the complete refund. (Was e-mailed this today by VMS and it confirms my suspicions)

So now you are upset that Sean would do what in my opinion most any professional and ethical leopard gecko breeder would do. Had he noticed the severity of the head deformity he would have euthanized it. I'm not sure how long you have been working with leopard geckos, or how many babies you have produced, but deformed babies are a part of breeding leos and just about all of us that are doing this on even a small scale level have experienced it. A gecko that hatched in my facility with a head deformity like that would have been euthanized, as are any babies with severe deformities. Here's why... let's say you get bored with your leos in a few months or years or whatever. You sell or give that deformed Bell to someone else. Of course, you would obviously tell them the animal is not to be bred, it is a pet only etc etc. So maybe that person is a good person and would never breed a deformed gecko but then for whatever reason they want to or have to get rid of it. So it in turn gets passed on to someone else who is maybe not so ethical and that person decides to breed the animal in spite of any request not to. Do you understand the point I am trying to make?

 

[PSReptiles]

So now you are upset that Sean would do what in my opinion most any professional and ethical leopard gecko breeder would do. Had he noticed the severity of the head deformity he would have euthanized it. I'm not sure how long you have been working with leopard geckos, or how many babies you have produced, but deformed babies are a part of breeding leos and just about all of us that are doing this on even a small scale level have experienced it. A gecko that hatched in my facility with a head deformity like that would have been euthanized, as are any babies with severe deformities. Here's why... let's say you get bored with your leos in a few months or years or whatever. You sell or give that deformed Bell to someone else. Of course, you would obviously tell them the animal is not to be bred, it is a pet only etc etc. So maybe that person is a good person and would never breed a deformed gecko but then for whatever reason they want to or have to get rid of it. So it in turn gets passed on to someone else who is maybe not so ethical and that person decides to breed the animal in spite of any request not to. Do you understand the point I am trying to make?

Yes, I am aware of your point, but you completely missed mine.

I know that culling babies with problems RIGHT out of the eggs that can't fend for themselves is part of breeding any animal. However, I wouldn't cull them if they had a second chance at life and might make someone a nice special needs pet. Especially now that she is already so OLD I would not send her back to be put DOWN! That is what I am saying...no, I am not getting on him about having to put down other geckos he may breed, but at 30 grams and doing great, she will live out a nice happy life here.

Chelsea

 

[eereptiles]

I have known Sean and Monica for a long time and they are great people! I don't know what more anyone could do to rectify this situation. They apoligized for sending out an animal that clearly slipped through, accidents do happen and they have been prompt in trying to make it "right." As far as the tail kinks I don't believe they are genetic either but they do happen. Looking at the geckos posted on their site the tail of every gecko is pictured well enough that tail kinks should be discernible to potential buyers.

For anyone to claim that Sean and Monica were intentionally trying to mislead customers is beyond the pale. There are too many people on forums like this that are quick to jump to conclusions and start blathering about situations that they are only slightly informed about. This is why forums are as bad as they are good.

In this case why didn't the original poster give it a week and wait until the situation had been resolved? If they were still dissatisfied then come here but in my opinion this is jumping the gun, remember patience is a virtue and a week is pretty prompt resolution in any business dealing.

Nick Stark

 

[PSReptiles]

I have known Sean and Monica for a long time and they are great people! I don't know what more anyone could do to rectify this situation. They apoligized for sending out an animal that clearly slipped through, accidents do happen and they have been prompt in trying to make it "right." As far as the tail kinks I don't believe they are genetic either but they do happen. Looking at the geckos posted on their site the tail of every gecko is pictured well enough that tail kinks should be discernible to potential buyers.

For anyone to claim that Sean and Monica were intentionally trying to mislead customers is beyond the pale. There are too many people on forums like this that are quick to jump to conclusions and start blathering about situations that they are only slightly informed about. This is why forums are as bad as they are good.

In this case why didn't the original poster give it a week and wait until the situation had been resolved? If they were still dissatisfied then come here but in my opinion this is jumping the gun, remember patience is a virtue and a week is pretty prompt resolution in any business dealing.

Nick Stark

I do agree I could have waited and I have also said that this BAD GUY title was probably too harsh. This was really just a buyer beware for anyone else trying to purchase from them where in the pictures the tail kinks ect were NOT obvious. We just got really "lucky" in looking at exactly those ones, but no, the pictures for ours had not been obvious -at all-. The ones I pointed out yes, but maybe still a nice little added mark next to them to tell about the problem would be nice.

I still think the one sunglow has a deformed eye that to someone else might NOT be noticeable and then they get the surprise of their life when it arrives (like what happened here). Either way I am not unhappy with how they are taking care of the problem, but I still caution buyers who haven't known them for as long as some of you have.

On another note and something I just thought was weird and would like to point out....is that all the sunglows up on the page(mainly half having tail kinks) are all RELATED. If this stuff might not be genetic I myself wouldn't know how to explain that. How do you have so many babies with tail kinks all from the same line?? I know he has tested this and supposedly it just randomly happens....but that seems like a lot of "random" happenings in one family. (If you honestly think you can explain it, please tell me how that happens and have it leans towards not being genetic)

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

I do agree I could have waited and I have also said that this BAD GUY title was probably too harsh. This was really just a buyer beware for anyone else trying to purchase from them where in the pictures the tail kinks ect were NOT obvious. We just got really "lucky" in looking at exactly those ones, but no, the pictures for ours had not been obvious -at all-. The ones I pointed out yes, but maybe still a nice little added mark next to them to tell about the problem would be nice.

I still think the one sunglow has a deformed eye that to someone else might NOT be noticeable and then they get the surprise of their life when it arrives (like what happened here). Either way I am not unhappy with how they are taking care of the problem, but I still caution buyers who haven't known them for as long as some of you have.

On another note and something I just thought was weird and would like to point out....is that all the sunglows up on the page(mainly half having tail kinks) are all RELATED. If this stuff might not be genetic I myself wouldn't know how to explain that. How do you have so many babies with tail kinks all from the same line?? I know he has tested this and supposedly it just randomly happens....but that seems like a lot of "random" happenings in one family. (If you honestly think you can explain it, please tell me how that happens and have it leans towards not being genetic)

Chelsea

should be how

Chelsea

 

[critical bill]

Yes, I am aware of your point, but you completely missed mine.

I know that culling babies with problems RIGHT out of the eggs that can't fend for themselves is part of breeding any animal. However, I wouldn't cull them if they had a second chance at life and might make someone a nice special needs pet. Especially now that she is already so OLD I would not send her back to be put DOWN! That is what I am saying...no, I am not getting on him about having to put down other geckos he may breed, but at 30 grams and doing great, she will live out a nice happy life here.

Chelsea

No hard feeling or anything, but for someone who continuously states they are not trying to be rude...you sure are argumentative enough that you really really do come off that way.

 

[critical bill]

I still think the one sunglow has a deformed eye that to someone else might NOT be noticeable and then they get the surprise of their life when it arrives (like what happened here).

Seriously? The "surprise of their life"? A bit dramatic don't you think? Its a gecko for christ sake.

 

[PSReptiles]

No hard feeling or anything, but for someone who continuously states they are not trying to be rude...you sure are argumentative enough that you really really do come off that way.

I could BE rude, but no I am just sticking up for my points of what I am trying to get across just like EVERYONE else has been doing, being rude would be doing what you are right now when you haven't even made any vaild points about this conversation, but instead jump in just to insult me.

We also don't have to bring god into this, it WAS very shocking now matter how anyone else might have reacted when you pull out a supposedly perfect gecko and have it looking at you with its gremlin-face.

Chelsea

 

[KelliH]

Yes, I am aware of your point, but you completely missed mine.

I know that culling babies with problems RIGHT out of the eggs that can't fend for themselves is part of breeding any animal. However, I wouldn't cull them if they had a second chance at life and might make someone a nice special needs pet. Especially now that she is already so OLD I would not send her back to be put DOWN! That is what I am saying...no, I am not getting on him about having to put down other geckos he may breed, but at 30 grams and doing great, she will live out a nice happy life here.

Chelsea

I understand what you are saying, I really do. I hope she does indeed have a long life with you. I would be upset if I was in your situation too; I understand how disappointing it is to be so excited about new geckos and then to get them and there is a problem like that. It's happened to me before more than once. I guess I was seeing things from the standpoint of a breeder rather than a customer. I think it's probably just my years of being in the business and my experience with these kinds of things that would have negated my posting about it here, as long as a fair solution was offered and accepted. I don't fault you for anything at all of course.

 

[KelliH]

I have known Sean and Monica for a long time and they are great people! I don't know what more anyone could do to rectify this situation. They apoligized for sending out an animal that clearly slipped through, accidents do happen and they have been prompt in trying to make it "right." As far as the tail kinks I don't believe they are genetic either but they do happen. Looking at the geckos posted on their site the tail of every gecko is pictured well enough that tail kinks should be discernible to potential buyers.

For anyone to claim that Sean and Monica were intentionally trying to mislead customers is beyond the pale. There are too many people on forums like this that are quick to jump to conclusions and start blathering about situations that they are only slightly informed about. This is why forums are as bad as they are good.

In this case why didn't the original poster give it a week and wait until the situation had been resolved? If they were still dissatisfied then come here but in my opinion this is jumping the gun, remember patience is a virtue and a week is pretty prompt resolution in any business dealing.

Nick Stark

Nick is right about Sean and Monica, they are great folks, very nice. Sean is one of the nicest guys I've met in the business in fact. I think the jumping the gun probably came from lack of experience and knowing how these BOI threads can be and how they can affect people.

 

[PSReptiles]

I understand what you are saying, I really do. I hope she does indeed have a long life with you. I would be upset if I was in your situation too; I understand how disappointing it is to be so excited about new geckos and then to get them and there is a problem like that. It's happened to me before more than once. I guess I was seeing things from the standpoint of a breeder rather than a customer. I think it's probably just my years of being in the business and my experience with these kinds of things that would have negated my posting about it here, as long as a fair solution was offered and accepted. I don't fault you for anything at all of course.

Yeah, I was just so excited and then so very shocked really. I know I probably jumped the gun here and everything, but honestly most of you who DO do business with them probably wont change that just because of this from me. I really would have liked to change it from the BAD GUY title, but I can't now. :/

I again think yes, they couldn't be handling the situation any better and I am not mad or complaining about that at -all-. I just wouldn't want to send her back(refund the whole group) now so she can be put down instead of getting to be happy like any other gecko and getting to -live- out her life. I really care for every animal I own and now she is one of them, I don't want to treat them as trash or something and just throw them away if they can live happily. I understand where you are coming from too though as a breeder right now, and I'm NOT trying to be rude. I just want everyone to be clear on what I am saying just like everyone else stating their own opinions.

Chelsea

 

[PSReptiles]

Nick is right about Sean and Monica, they are great folks, very nice. Sean is one of the nicest guys I've met in the business in fact. I think the jumping the gun probably came from lack of experience and knowing how these BOI threads can be and how they can affect people.

I must say yes, I haven't ever used the BOI myself, but when a bunch of people started recommending I head this way and tell what was going on...I did just that.

I wasn't just listening to them, but I did in fact -want- to let people know what had happened and what was going on somewhere where I could actually post about it. I say again, that is why I DO agree BAD GUY is too harsh, but maybe it should have just gone under information or something. (when picking the title that didn't seem right though, since I wasn't happy and it didn't sound like what I needed to say) :/

Chelsea

 

[Tony C]

Tony, there is not one person that I know of who would not completely agree with your belief as stated above, but the implication that VMS does that is a wild claim that is completely unwarranted, undeserved, and appears to be a flimsy attempt to make an emotional appeal for an untenable position. Unless you have been to their facility and collected hard data that show conclusively there is a disproportionate ratio of abnormalities to normalities being mass produced, then you are getting your exercise jumping to erroneous conclusions and would be better off to remain silent on that point.

Four out of six animals in the OP's shipment were deformed, and the owner of VMS stated in his email that he routinely breeds tail-kinked animals and does not consider them to be a problem. That attitude goes against the practices of every reputable leopard gecko breeder I know of, and is enough to convince me not to do business with VMS. You are free to form your own opinion, but I stand by mine.

 

[eereptiles]

I think you would be hard pressed to find any business that does a large volume of anything that hasn't had something leave their facility that they wished hadn't. That's life it is how they offer to resolve the situation in a manner that pleases the customer that matters. From everything I have seen here Sean and Monica have made several offers to compensate the buyer. Too many people are to quick to come here with issues rather than allowing for a reasonable solution and once posted can't be taken back even if they would like to.

Tony, it is your loss! You couldn't be more wrong about them. By the way how many people do you know working with enigmas? A gecko that has clear genetic neurological issues. Are you saying they are all unethical?

Nick Stark

 

[PSReptiles]

I think you would be hard pressed to find any business that does a large volume of anything that hasn't had something leave their facility that they wished hadn't. That's life it is how they offer to resolve the situation in a manner that pleases the customer that matters. From everything I have seen here Sean and Monica have made several offers to compensate the buyer. Too many people are to quick to come here with issues rather than allowing for a reasonable solution and once posted can't be taken back even if they would like to.

Tony, it is your loss! You couldn't be more wrong about them. By the way how many people do you know working with enigmas? A gecko that has clear genetic neurological issues. Are you saying they are all unethical?

Nick Stark

I dont find working with enigmas too bad, but dont people at least do a little back breeding to other things so they can hopefully get rid of any neuro. problems? I am just asking this as a regular question, not arguing with you or anything.

Chelsea