Vote***financing Fauna***vote

[The BoidSmith]

If a fee is instrumented for the BOI the ones that will more than likely will not register to post will be the ones that were dealt fairly on a deal. This may reduce the spontaneous good guy posts, as well as those posts per request of the sellers that like to see their trader rating grow. The people that were wronged on a deal will probably agree to pay to post. The reasons: 1. Protect other people from going through a similar aggravation; 2. Get back to the person who scammed him/her 3. Attempt to get some sort of restitution.

Regards.

 

[WebSlave]

I really like nicolai's graduated scale of fees, I think that addresses a lot of issues that people have. I think one concern that may or may not have been answered adequately can be better stated by an example.

I forget the date, but let's say that 2 months ago I paid $25 to be a contributing member. Today (with 10 months remaining on my 1-year contributorship), WebSlave decides to go with Nicholai's graduated scale. That would put me in the almost top level. I can choose to keep that current level that $25 buys me, or fork out the additional $10 to put myself in the highest category. My understanding of the fairest way of doing this would be that I could pay the $10, and in ten months, I would be paying up again. I would not suddenly go down to ZERO.... but I would not have an entire year from TODAY either.

This would be the fair implementation of the system. So for those who are afraid that donating YESTERDAY would result in a ZERO balance on the day that WebSlave implements changes...well I very highly doubt this to be true. (he can of course correct me if I'm wrong).

Anyway, I hope this makes some sort of sense.

Sorry, but no. This system has to be 99.9 percent automated otherwise I would lose my mind over it. The system has no way to keep track of "upgrades" to current subscriptions. So if someone pays the $10 for the basic membership and then 6 months later decides they want to upgrade to the $25 level, well it's going to cost them $25 to upgrade. Anyone with a programming background can envision the coding necessary to implement a more complicated system, which is programming time I would have to shell out. If it becomes a real bone of contention down the road, and I have the $$ in my pocket after implementing this scheme, well yes, I will take care of it. But not right off the bat. If this is going to flop and the site go bye-bye, it would be money just thrown away.

Really, the basic membership fee is the sticking point, not the higher levels. Higher levels are mostly genuine contributions from folks here whereas the entry level would be a requirement to get basic services and the "credibility check".

 

[shrap]

Alright folks, here is where we are in a nutshell. Most folks have no problem kicking in $10 for a general membership fee, but they want the BOI to remain free. Am I correct in stating that? I lean that way as well but fully understand Rich's desire to clean up the BOI.

So lets focus on ways to clean up the BOI so we can keep it free. How do we stop fake posters? How do we stop people from ignoring fines and signing up under a different alias? How do we stop people from making fake identities just to promote themselves or their friends? Basically how can we authenticate users on the BOI? That is where we as a group need to focus our attention and ideas. I have racked my brain for a week and I can not see a better alternative than what Rich is already suggesting.

So lets quit all the petty bantering and focus on the task at hand. There are a lot of very smart people here, I am sure if we focus on the one dividing point we can come up with something that is acceptable that will provide some legitimacy to the BOI.

 

[Bill_Leverton]

Ok now as it stands there are 3 treads on this same subject and all I see is ppl saying "I think this site should remain free its been that way for as long as I can remember" ok I understand that to a certain degree (sort of) But that brings a lingering question ..If gas & electric companies were giving away free gas & electric out of the goodness of there hearts and then one day said we are taking a major beating on suppling the gas & electric for free We need to start charging or we will no longer to manufacture this produce how many people would Stop heatingand having electric in their houses or cutting their lawns or driving there cars or motorcycles Im willing to bet maybe a 0.5% IMHO things worth have may cost you something and also we live in a world where we we take alot for granted and feel that somebody always owes us something ......those days are long gone time to wake up and see reality for what it is thank and good day

 

[WebSlave]

Alright folks, here is where we are in a nutshell. Most folks have no problem kicking in $10 for a general membership fee, but they want the BOI to remain free. Am I correct in stating that? I lean that way as well but fully understand Rich's desire to clean up the BOI.

No, not precisely. What people are saying is that they won't mind me charging for any forum posting access EXCEPT for the one they like to post in the most. IMHO.

I guess I should have run a poll beforehand asking everyone what they considered as the top detraction of the BOI in terms of participation. Any guess on what that would have been prior to me springing this membership fee thing on everyone? Well it wouldn't have been news to me. What I am addressing now is a possible solution. After hearing people say that so and so thinks the BOI is a joke, the Board of Idiots, yada yada yada, I am addressing what I see as the biggest stumbling block to credibility of those posting there. It also ties well in hand with my desire to get more financial backing for this site. So they definitely go hand in hand.

And if the truth be known, the more I hear people bitching over a lousy $10, the less concerned I am getting about what happens afterwards with this site. Hell, $10 isn't even a decent tip at a restaurant these days.

 

[Seamus Haley]

Alright folks, here is where we are in a nutshell. Most folks have no problem kicking in $10 for a general membership fee, but they want the BOI to remain free. Am I correct in stating that? I lean that way as well but fully understand Rich's desire to clean up the BOI.

I don't believe that's entirely accurate. Of the thousands upon thousands of registered members, only 204 have voted as of the time I write this and the largest group with seventy four votes is for "I won't pay and will take off if asked to." The second largest group with seventy two votes wants to put the costs entirely on the advertisers...

So while there are a number of posts in the thread asking for the BOI to remain free (small side note, I also feel it should be or it will lose any power it has- alternative solutions to cut down on associated junk are difficult though and I'm pretty happy that it's not my decision to make) it can hardly be called the majority. Given that the majority of users haven't expressed an opinion one way or the other... and the largest subsection of the avaliable poll options refuses to pay for ANYTHING including discussion forums or classified ads.

 

[WebSlave]

Oh, one other thing. Look at this display: http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/whowasonlinetoday.php?

See all of those dark black bolded names displayed? Those are all people who will automatically have all rights enabled if/when the $10 basic fee is implemented. I would say we are off to a pretty good start keeping a solid nucleus of people here.

And to all of you people who have signed up recently for the Contributors Memberships and forum sponsorships,

THANK YOU!!

It is appreciated more then you will probably ever know.

 

[Seamus Haley]

So while there are a number of posts in the thread asking for the BOI to remain free

That needs some clarififcation... BOI to remain free but impliment a fee elsewhere... This has been expressed many times in POSTS on the thread but is not reflected in the VOTES which were generated. Looking over the thread... it's a smallish group going back and forth much of the time and the "outpouring of support" is more of a slow drip.

 

[WebSlave]

I don't believe that's entirely accurate. Of the thousands upon thousands of registered members, only 204 have voted as of the time I write this and the largest group with seventy four votes is for "I won't pay and will take off if asked to." The second largest group with seventy two votes wants to put the costs entirely on the advertisers...

Actually the poll itself is not really very accurate. Nor is the one I constructed a while back. The implications upon reading it are that a general access fee will be applied across the board to EVERYTHING on this site. If such a thing were implemented, I too would expect many people to leave.

I would make up a more realistic poll, based on what the true options will be, but to be honest, I think people would be out buring crosses on my front lawn if I did that. SHEESH, another thread and poll?

And quite probably everyone else is getting almost as tired as I am of this entire discussion.

But when you read the results of the polls, READ what they are really saying to you based on what people are likely interpreting the options as meaning. Sometimes you need to combine the votes in multiple options in order to get a better feel for what is being voted on.

But from past experiene with anything I have asked around here, a realistic result to expect is roughly 50 percent for, and 50 percent against.

 

[Seamus Haley]

See all of those dark black bolded names displayed? Those are all people who will automatically have all rights enabled if/when the $10 basic fee is implemented. I would say we are off to a pretty good start keeping a solid nucleus of people here.

1183 users.

I count ninety eight contributing members, counting Rich himself and the moderation team.

That's about 8.3% of the people who visted today. Or about one half of one percent of the total members of the site. I know I'm going to sound caustic here but that's not exactly booming. Nor is it a positive sign for the direction that membership will go should such a registration fee be implemented.

 

[shrap]

And if the truth be known, the more I hear people bitching over a lousy $10, the less concerned I am getting about what happens afterwards with this site. Hell, $10 isn't even a decent tip at a restaurant these days.

I agree completely Rich. Never in my wildest dreams (except the dream where I am walking naked through people lined streets and all the people are throwing deli pickle slices at me) did I think $10 would bother people so much.

I think that some people honestly believe that charging for the BOI will cripple it and its effectiveness in some ways. It is not about them of where they like to post, it is them just wanting what is best for the BOI. One day I lean that way (free BOI) and the next day I lean towards charging for it becasue there does not seem to be any other way to legitimize the BOI.

I do believe many people are just worried about how this fee will effect them personally and don't really care how it effects the BOI or Fauna in general. But I also see there are a bunch of people that are more than willing to support you and this site with their hard earned money. Regardless of what sections are free and what are fee based. Our posts are all over these particular threads as proof. I just think that many people are nervous about how it will effect this community, not their bank accounts. I honestly believe that for the majority of us the money does not mean a damn thing. We are more than happy to fork it over if it means a better community and some peace of mind for you.

Some of your posts though are like no one gives a damn when that could not be further from the truth. The majority does give a damn, about this community and its leader.

 

[Seamus Haley]

But when you read the results of the polls, READ what they are really saying to you based on what people are likely interpreting the options as meaning. Sometimes you need to combine the votes in multiple options in order to get a better feel for what is being voted on.

That is an excellent point. I think any polls run will be a bit off though because there is a very large portion of the member base that does not check the site on a daily... or weekly... or I suspect even monthly schedule. These members are valuable as any contribution in the form of non-troll posting helps it grow and the membership numbers help attract advertisers... but polls run about site related issues will only be responded to by those who frequent the board regularly enough to have an opinion that they consider signifigant enough to speak up and voice.

But that's part of the problem that implementing a registration fee might cause. Will it solve the trolls? Yes. Will it cut back on your personal costs (and I do agree with the stance that you should not be EXPECETED to foot the bill. I appreciate that you do and chose to but should you drump the site tomorrow it's your call)? Sure since some revenue is greater than no revenue... although I would anticipate that the drop in traffic might also lose a number of banner advertisers since the traffic isn't there anymore so that financial help might not be as signifigant as it seems...

And I also believe it is overly optimistic to expect more than a few hundred members to register. And when the board is only being used by a few hundred members, it becomes less valuable to them. They check less often, hit counts drop, MORE advertisers back out... The main draw is the BOI. The other forums are great but they do exist elsewhere and while people may currently preffer the quality of a fauna discussion about (insert animal here) it can be had elsewhere for free so... I may just be pessimistic but I think if a fee is charged- even a nominal one that really isn't a financial burden, the site will wither, grow stagnant and die.

There are multiple reasons that have been expressed for pursuing the idea of a fee though and I'm not sure which ones rate most highly. Server and coding costs have been mentioned but it *sounds* from some of the discussion that this might be comparatively minimal and might be most easily addressed through alternative means that leave the site largely unchanged. Weeding out problem members is another but... any fee small enough to be easily swallowed by enough members (remember our silent majority here) to maintain a worthwhile activity level would not be enough to persuade a really dedicated troublemaker from doing their thing anyway... Although the idea of generating revenue from that does have a kind of ironic upside to it. The last aspect which I believe is signifigant is the workload involved. That's something that people may make suggestions about and offer platitudes and idle comments of regret for but it's also something which can only be addressed by one person. The real decision kind of weighs in as being a work versus reward thing for you Rich and it's a choice that can't be made by anyone but you (possibly with some signifigant input from your family).

Not something that'll be solved by more polls anyway. Only solution may be to close your eyes and push the button just to see what happens. Calculated risk inherent in a choice in any direction though and the results may not be what everyone (or anyone) wants.

 

[craig kade]

I worry that charging to post on the BOI will weaken it, I tell all my k/s customers to check out this site and post for me if they feel like it. If it costs $10 for them to post, no I will not get as many people posting. I will learn to deal with that. I know I would not want to be in Rich's shoes right now, trying to make this decision, but you will see that nobody has said" to hell with this site I will go start my own BOI for free. I will pay out for all the expenses and work on it day and night for free" This is what Rich has been doing for years. I think we all owe him for this. I do really wish we could make him enough money of the classifieds to make the rest of the site free, however I know this is probably not possible. I use the classifieds, but realistically I would not pay even $75 a year, just because I have not had as much luck here. If Rich charged $10 a year it would probably not generate enough funds. Good luck with your decision, I do hope it is implemented soon, the suspence is killing me. For me personally $10 is nothing to be part of this great site. Thanks Rich. Craig

 

[Sasheena]

Actually I got bored and counted the number of contributing members (my count might be low)... I got something like 130 contributing members.

Just wanted to clear up one thing Rich....

Mr. Contributor contributed five days BEFORE you implement your new fee structure. Mr. Contributor is still "Good to Go" until his year is up, yes??? (albeit, he cannot upgrade without going whole hog)

Just had a thought, just a thought mind you, but wouldn't it be cool if people who have ALREADY contributed, got the highest level ($35) until their subscription period ran out, and then they would pay whatever they felt like? Just a thought. Mostly brought about because I HOPE to have some hatchlings to sell this summer/fall, and HOPE to sell them here, but it would BITE just a bit to have to ante up $35.... But really that's not that big a deal.... so now that I think about it, it's no bigee... but still want to know the answer to Mr. Contributor's situation.

Oh and if I sound all sorta jumbled up, it's because I'm on pain pills, (Really NICE STRONG ones). So I'm ever so slightly looped.

Anyway, I, too, am looking forward to the DECISION...because we can all make predictions, all give suggestions and opinions and so forth and so on, but until it happens and we see what happens as a result, it's all just TALK

 

[kephy]

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested and addressed. If it has, just point me in the right direction and I'll go look for it.

I was wondering, if there was any way to allow people to view the forums at no charge, but pay the membership fee to post? That would not only help sort out all the riff-raff posters, but it would still allow lurkers like myself and your average inquiring buyers to use it as the resourse that it is. Not that I personally would mind paying the $10, I would pay it gladly. I just share the concern that it would run off your average person who is just trying to read up a thing or two about a seller. I frequent a few forums and I'm always seeing people recommend others to come here and do a search on a certain breeder. I'm sure there are hundreds of people who've been able to learn valuable things here without ever having to post. I know I have.

Just a thought.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

I have not read this entire thread, so forgive me if this has already been suggested and addressed. If it has, just point me in the right direction and I'll go look for it.

I was wondering, if there was any way to allow people to view the forums at no charge, but pay the membership fee to post? That would not only help sort out all the riff-raff posters, but it would still allow lurkers like myself and your average inquiring buyers to use it as the resourse that it is. Not that I personally would mind paying the $10, I would pay it gladly. I just share the concern that it would run off your average person who is just trying to read up a thing or two about a seller. I frequent a few forums and I'm always seeing people recommend others to come here and do a search on a certain breeder. I'm sure there are hundreds of people who've been able to learn valuable things here without ever having to post. I know I have.

Just a thought.

Why, Yes that is what has been suggested the whole time. On both threads.

 

[Ophis]

Yea

But do you forgive her?

 

[kephy]

Sorry. I did read the whole first page of this thread and I never saw it. I didn't have the energy to read it all.

So, care to point me in the right direction, then? Or at least sum it up?

 

[The BoidSmith]

Rich,

Would requesting a verifiable telephone number (through internet reverse look-up) at registering be a possibility to verify the identity of the person setting the account?

Just a thought.

 

[WebSlave]

Amanda - yeah you should have read the entire thread.... Reading would be enabled without restriction for all registered members, paid and non-paying alike. It is only the posting of new threads and replies (but not necessarily both) that would be restricted in certain sections of this site.

Anyone have any spare time? Would someone please count up the number of UNIQUE members who have posted in the BOI over the last week or month? Curious to know what that number is. I suspect it is not a significant number at all. Which is both good and bad, I suspose. Roger's estimate of getting less then 100 members to pay up the $10 may not be far from the mark.

As for the number of Contributing Members now being a small subset of the total, yes, that is true. But just how long ago was it when having 30 registered members online simultaneously quite an accomplishment? How long ago was it when having a TOTAL of 400 registered members visiting this site in an entire 24 hours a big deal? Well I will tell you, Just TWO years ago. And at that time I had a fair number of advertisers who thought that was plenty enough traffic to attract them here and to support this site. I suspect that many of the newer advertisers here aren't here solely for the active traffic, but for the fact that they probably only recently found this site. I do not believe that the traffic will drop significantly at all. Maybe the frivolous posting in the BOI will, but I say "good riddance" to that anyway.

Looking at it from the perspective of those advertisers, how attractive is advertising on this site going to be if the majority of the active members are willing to PAY in order to be here and post? That means serious people with incentive to be here and likely willing to buy what they want with money in their pockets. Is a group of people not willing to even shell out $10 a YEAR for this site really going to make much of a dent in their business by not seeing their ads here? I don't think so. But THIS site will be the one where people serious about their business, their purchases, their animals and the people they deal with will still be hanging out.

And tell me, when this site was where it was at two years ago, traffic and membership wise, was it still worth coming to? Would the BOI, if it had had a higher level of legitimacy because of a filtering of those people able to post on it, be stronger and better respected now?