Waiting period before posting a "BAD GUY" post...

[kenster]

I was wondering what time frame everyone would wait before they posted a bad guy post. Lets say you bought something and the person told you, your item would be shiped on x day and you get nothing the following day. Or nothing the entire following week and you have not heard anything from this person again. No phone calls no e-mails and when you call them you get nothing and they do not respond to e-mails. How long would you wait before posting?

 

[Seamus Haley]

Unfortunately it's not really a concrete time frame, at least for me...

It depends on my comfort level with the person involved based off past transactions, their general reputation and the amount of communication that occured beforehand.

People who are known to me or who I have an established history of purchases with no problem from get extra time.

Personal friends get extra time of course.

People with a truely SOLID reputation get extra trust and extra time... Someone with a really positive well known public reputation is less likely to try and screw you over because the consequenses are more severe when it is made public. For instance... I have never once bought an animal directly from Bob Clark, if I were to send money and communication were to cease, animal undelivered, I'd be ready to send "get well soon" cards long before I was ready to write a bad guy post, assuming that something had gone wrong beyond the control of any of the involved parties. A negative transaction with a well known individual gets more exposure than a negative transaction with someone who doesn't have name reccognition as more people would be interested in reading it... There's also a "Longer to fall" mentality where people who enjoy great success based off their reputation are less likely to do anything to damage that reputation because the resultant loss of income is proportionally higher.

People with whom communication was minimal anyway tend to get a bit of a break too... While I peraonally see complete communication before, during and after a sale as being imperative and would be unlikely to send money to anyone who doesn't respond to e-mails for a week at a time anyway... if I'm interested in an animal but the communication begins by being slow, I wouldn't expect it to increase much during or after the sale. Whereas someone who had been displaying better, quicker communication prior to the sale suddenly dissapearing afterwards seems more suspicious, since it's a deviation in the displayed conduct.

 

[Winter]

I would have to agree with Seamus, for the most part. As far as I am concerned, the time frame that I would wait before posting a "bad guy" thread would really depend on the a case-by-case basis.

Previous to my latest transaction that can be viewed on the BOI, I have had sellers disappear for a few days or even a week or more at a time when I was supposed to be getting a shipment and I was not overly concerned due to their good reputation or previous history with me.

However, if someone that I do not know, that I cannot find any information about, gets out of contact with me, I will become somewhat anxious. In my last incident, even though I did not know the folks I was doing business with and I could find no one that had done business with them until I came here, I still waited almost a month before I went to the BOI. And in hindsight, I believe I waited too long. The situation would likely have been resolved sooner if I had not dragged my proverbial feet.

On another note, I do think communication is very important for transactions, especially online. If I am not able to get in contact well with an individual before I send my money, I will be more liable to sit back and ask myself whether I want to do business with them. I am aware that some folks are not able to get to a computer easily or have many customers to deal with, but it seems reasonable, concerning an internet business, to expect a somewhat timely reply.

Anyhow, I know that doesen't answer the original question perfectly, but it is the best I am able to come up with. To put it simply, under no circumstance would I post on the BOI immediately, but there is a point where the line must be drawn, for better or worse. Hope this helps.

Regards,

Lauren Rost

 

[WebSlave]

Well, the problem is that there is a tradeoff to be made in making the decision about when to blow the whistle.

What needs to be balanced is the need to have enough patience to give someone enough time to complete the deal as opposed to giving the other party enough time to vanish and cover the trail.

The original impetus for me to open up the Board of Inquiry was from a guy (Wild World of Reptiles - John Smith) whom passed me three bad checks in payment for animals. I was in pretty constant contact with him and got many promises that the money would be paid "by the end of the month". This went on too long, apparently, because by the time I contacted local authorities in his state, he had closed up shop and vanished. If I had been hard nosed about it, perhaps I would have had him nailed to the floor before he could evaporate.

In another situation I have ongoing right now, I have extended a person quite a bit of credit because of some severe medical problems his wife has had recently and him losing his job trying to care for his wife and their kids while she was in the hospital. This has been going on for quite a long time, and I feel that I am willing to do all I can to help someone in a real bind. But just how long is too long? Do I get hardlined and demand my money, no matter what their situation? At what point do you go from feeling you are helping someone in need to start feeling that you are a fool and a sucker? Do you wait for indisputable proof first?

 

[Dragondad]

Case by Case

I would have to agree its a case by case basis.

If your in constant contact with a person during the sale and that contact suddenly changes, Its heads up, especially if the animal isnt what you aggreed to purchase or trade for.

I have had sellers who have maintained contact and even initiated new contact after the sale just so they know that the deal is complete.

But as with most things in life there can be problems and those problems can affect people of the reptile industry as well as the average John Doe. Weather, family matters, other emergencies all can affect the outcome. And all don't make for a "bad guy"

 

[John Apple]

In general its on a case by case basis
I can remember sending some money to Stephen Barringer and he held the animals for a month or so until I made it to Florida on my vacation and picked them up, He left me with a good feeling {now I know I could have been screwed} and a totally honest demeaner, ya know phone #'s addresses ect ect So I was willing to wait a month or so.
On the other hand if I didn't know you I would be a sceptic to say the least on why you did not ship on the day you said and why aren't you answering my E-mails and calls, so in this case I would go the 1-4 day scenario
Communication and honesty, trust also have something with how far you are willing to go before you 'blow the whistle'
Family and good Friends are a variable also.
All things considered it boils down to how the buyer presented himself [yes the Buyer] and how far the seller or trader is willing to go.
I have been known to fly off the handle and have some restraint, hopefully as I get older my children see more of the latter
but then you know what they say about us Michiganders
take care Ken

 

[The BoidSmith]

Just to add a comment to the rest. If the person had the time to cash the order o check you sent I believe he should take a couple of minutes to write a couple of lines as of why the delay. Something like "Sorry for the delay, your snake will be shipped out shortly, I had a couple of personal problems I had to deal with first. Kindly John Doe". This reply took me less than 2 minutes.

Best regards.

 

[kenster]

In another situation I have ongoing right now, I have extended a person quite a bit of credit because of some severe medical problems his wife has had recently and him losing his job trying to care for his wife and their kids while she was in the

Rich,
the above shows why you are truly one of the GOOD GUYS, if not a great guy! I am sure there are plenty of people out there that would demand money form this person. Although it may be a bit odd if a person say buys 6 lavs from you then comes up with the same excuse. I would lean towards this made up person would not be inclined to actually pay back his bills to you. You bring up a good point, when do you stop being nice and start wondering if you will ever see your cash? I do understand there are just things that do come up where a person can't ship or can't pay for a few days. I also think that the complete lack of contact with either a seller or buyer for three weeks or more would be a bit odd. Family problems come up but a 5 minute phone call is all it would take, to make the other person feel a little better about the whole deal. In todays age, everyone has cell phones or laptops and have acess to PC's where they could leave e-mails. Heck let's say I bought something from "Bob" all of a sudden "Bob" is in a serious car wreck. A few days go by with no word from "Bob", then when I start to wonder if I got scammed I get a call from "Bob's wife" telling me what had happned. I would be more than willing to wait for "Bob" to get better before he sends me what i ordered. heck in the meantime I would send "Bob" a get well card and wish him well. I guess all I am getting at is a simple phone call would work a whole lot better than nothing at all......

 

[kenster]

John,
Always good to hear from another Michigander! This thread was started mainly beacuse of a thread I have going on the BOI. A "voice of reason" told me that I may have jumped the gun on posting a bad guy post. I thought it had been long enough with no contact. I now also see where this man has been bad before. I can see how posting a bad guy post then having to switch it to a good guy post would be very tough to do. Plus IF that was the case here I would look like the fool. Which I was ready to do. But as this whole thing unfolds it is looking like posting was a good idea.

PS: John or any other michigander here if you are ever in the Flint area look me up, I'd be more than willing to meet and shoot the "stuff" over a beer....

 

[John Apple]

Ken
Or two beers
As far as the topic of the thread goes. there should be a line drawn and the person that crosses it should have an answer
its that simple
peace

 

[kenster]

John,
I agree the person who crosses the line should be held responsible for his/her actions..

And do we have to stop at just 2?

 

[sschind]

I think a lot of it depends on how you make your initial post. If it is to the point, contains only facts, and doesn't resort to name calling or inuendo anything like that, I really don't see how anyone can fault you for possibly jumping the gun. Every person is different when it comes to their own tollerance levels. What one person may see as a long time someone else might see as a reasonable time. I myself am pretty reluctant to press the issue. I really want to trust people. Other people are not like me. They want answers now. Neither one is better, just different.

Another thing is that we may never know why the deal that seemingly goes bad suddenly goes good. maybe it is because someone "jumps the gun" that the bad guy suddenly decides to make things right. Had the gun not been jumped (how's that for twisting the English language) maybe the bad guy would have carried out his intentions and never followed through with his end of the deal.

I guess my point is that if you keep your post civil, include only the facts, don't make any assumptions or accusations, I don't think anyone could fault you for jumping the gun even if the deal turns out good. Most sellers, I would think, would understand your situation if the shoe was on their foot. I would caution others though not to be so quick to judge however.

Steve Schindler

 

[Darin Chappell]

Steve raises some good points. However, (and I do not believe for a second that Steve was implying this) I think that we should be hesitant to use hyperbole or innuendo on ANY bad guy post! Our concern for stating "just the facts ma'am" clearly, concisely, and without aggrivating interpretation ought to be present for the bad guy that has jerked us around for a month as much as for the one that is two days late in shipping.

Obviously, I don't say this to be good to bad guys, but simply because we look more professional and make our cases more "airtight" when we refrain from foaming at the mouth as we type our situations. It is hard (nearly impossible for me), but I think it is important for us to try to achieve that level of professionalism.

On the whole, I do not believe that Ken has done anything wrong in posting his bad guy report when he did. I understand (from the other thread) that the individual has moved in between the instigation and the completion of this deal, and that he lost Ken's information in that move, hence the loss of contact. OK. Mistakes happen. However, If I were taking someone's money for a shipment of animals, and I knew that I would be moving before I could get those animals shipped, I would do whatever it took for me to stay in contact with that buyer. I'm not saying that this seller is a bad guy for making his error in time frame judgment, but I also cannot blame Ken for worrying as he did. At the very least, the seller should have told Ken that he would be moving soon, but that shipping would take place as soon as was possible.

Ken's only real fault in all of his practices is that he has horrible taste in NFL teams! Back at ya, Ken!

 

[kenster]

Darin and Steve,
Both of your replys were very well put. I will feel very bad if those snakes get here and they are adults as the post said. I may not be the biggest man, but I can and will admit when I am wrong. I think being married helps that process !! As I have said, I would have been happy with a phone call or something to let me know that the deal was still going through. I don't make good money and the money I do have to spend on animals is very slim! So when I thought I was getting taken I was not a happy camper! That is why i posted. I thought my post was to the point and included all the facts.


Oh and Darin, I can count the number of snakes I have that are red and yellow on one finger!! Although there are a few SILVER and BLACK ones!! Of course the silver and black ones are bigger, badder, and MUCH better looking than that red and yellow one!! Hmm I think the same holds true in the NFL!!

 

[Glenn Bartley]

Ken,

I think that in general, all things being equal (no preference for friendship/reputation of dealer and so forth) I would be pretty likely to not wait more than ten days to two weeks before placing such a post. A lot can happen in a week, but people are usually back in the swing of things by week two. Sure some catastrophe may have occurred that does not allow someone to contact you, but in all likelihood that is usually not the case. For someone not to contact you for a whole week is pretty bad, in my opinion. For them not to do so after ten to fourteen days is beyond my limit of tolerance. If they come up with a valid excuse later on as to why I did not receive the animal or item I ordered, when I had paid for in advance, that is all well and good so long as I get what I paid for or get my money back. The thing is, it is well and good only so far as I would have gotten what I paid for or received a refund; it is not good with regard to their lack of contact. There would be few excuses, as far as I am concerned, for them from contacting me. I have been in a situation where I was, at the last possible moment (and I mean that literally - I had less than 2 1/2 hours notice), ordered to fly cross country for my job (when doing the Air Marshal thing). Once I arrived at my destination, most of my first two weeks was spent flying back and forth 12 hours a day on commuter flights. I had a deal or two going. There was no time to make calls or send emails. I had to pack for Idaho and make family arrangements, and had to be at the airport 2 hours early (needless to say I was a bit late with that short a notice, like about an hour or so late). I got my stuff done and left. I also made sure that once I had the smallest amount of free time in Pocatello, Idaho - I found a place where I could rent computer access and I signed on and sent out emails. I felt like a jerk and figured I would get some people pretty mad at me, but people were happy to hear from me. The deals ultimately went through - just quite late. They went through however because I contacted people. I kind of believe my doing so was the right thing to do – so I made time to do it. I know of others who have done likewise for me, judging by the 4AM time stamp on their emails to me.

So if I found myself in such a situation as the buyer/seller where the other guy did not make contact but had a valid excuse, I would go back to correct the feedback I had left in the bad guy post. I would explain: yes they made good - but it took way too long for them to contact me. I would allow the reader of my thread to make up his/her own mind. You would in essence be changing a rating of F to a rating of maybe a C.

Of course, in the rare truly catastrophic situation, then I guess I would be happy to totally rescind my earlier bad guy post. That is pretty easy here on the BOI.

Best regards,
Glenn