Inquiry Wanda Patterson aka: sunsethypo?

[4PawsMike]

Anyone done business with this person?

Out of Virginia

Good? Bad? Anything?

 

[kenske]

I did a trade with her a few months ago. Everything went smooth as butter.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I have purchased from her on several occasions. The morph traits she claims are, however, often unproven despite her claims. Everybody supposedly with a homozygous "sunset hypo" has conveniently left the country or refuses to reveal themselves for their protection.

Too many excuses, so I decided to divest.

I will not be buying from her at all going forward. Things just seem like they do not add up. Also, that "neon vanilla" thing going on now is a real hoot.

If the animal is a visual, you can have faith in that. If there is no strong evidence of heritability of any new "morph" being claimed, caveat emptor (and then beware some more). If an animal is from among the offspring of a known visual morph parent, like one of the known hognose snake morphs she breeds or her hypo redfoot group (which has a breeding hypo male), you are probably pretty safe.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

To add, there is the possibility that the "sunset hypo" thing is real, but I have no solid evidence these days supporting that and the project has gone on an awfully long time not to have these popping up yet out of folks' collections when so many have bought "hets" over the years. However, my remaining glimmer of hope of that proving out was pretty much extinguished by the recent "neon vanilla" babcocki nonsense. I consider both morphs' legitimacy to be, simply put, rather improbable as things stand.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=72292&highlight=Patterson

I believe this is relevant.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kr7HRUZmosA

That one shows some decidedly regular Gpp and shows Wanda.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60V1f1s6j5Q

That one shows Darik.

I pursued a line of thought I had that seemed to be reinforced or hinted at by the experiences of others. It appears that perhaps either Darik is impersonating Wanda, who is also shown in the video above, to circumvent an old bad reputation, or they are both in this plan together. My hunch is that they are in this together, as her hands are often shown holding the hatchlings for photographs in their ads.

Do not worry if the videos are removed. Multiple people now have copies.

"Wanda" claims the animals are kept in "a facility".

lol

LOL!

What a facility! Apparently, when I receive a shipment from Amazon, it is not simply in a box. It is delivered to me in "a facility" of some kind. Magical.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Here is the only "het" ad up as I am typing this. They often have others.

To boot, it appears that the colors on hognose snakes in her/his/their ads can get so intense at times that the fabric in the background changes color as well.

I will also attach a photo of their "sunset hypo" female that I believe was doctored/modified in order to misrepresent and deceive the buying public.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I wonder if Darik was banned from Kingsnake and if Kingsnake would find the attempt to circumvent the ban, if so, as wonderful. Anyway, enough from me for now. I must go tend to my own tortoises, whose phenotypes are not products of Photoshop.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 10:24 AM
To
[email protected]
I do not believe a word of your claims about anything. There is currently a glut of pardalis pardalis hatchlings, too. They are no longer the rarity they once were. I sold off several adults and a friend of mine have sold off several as well.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:19 AM
Subject: Re:

hi nick ,i have read your posting on fauna quite the slander ,i have been a member on fauna for quite some time , first of all darik is my son who helps me from time to time , i only keep the one pair of p.pardalis the normal male and the hypo females due to there size ,visual sunsethypos have been sold on kingsnake from hets that were produced in the usa the person who sold the visual hypo was in the military and was stationed out of the usa . until 2004 /2005 very few het sunsethypos were produced. because the eggs have a diapause and i leave them in the ground part of the year the sexing is random and likely heavy on the male side,i have not had anyone breed these and tell me that they hatched eggs and none popped up .including you . as far as i known only 2 or 3 people have even hatched p.pardalis ,they are not easy to hatch like pardalis b eggs so they are not likely to be popping up very often ,jeff gee has sold thousands of these and you dont see a bunch of pardalis pardalis popping up everyywhere from provide breeders just dealers who likely get them from one or two sources ,with only a tiny group of my lines out there that are female and may not live in a area where they can be left in ground it is very unfair for you to post something like this without even emailing me and no proof other then stuff that doesn't make sense and this weird case you are trying to make ,i am a private hobbyist breeder my facility is fairly near by where i live its on farm land where other family members and dedicated hobbyist friends have on going projects ,i usually pack orders and keep small reptiles at my residence its is more convenient for me ,reptiles are a hobby ,i am a RN for a living , as far as the neon vanilla go they are not a simple recessive morph ,they are line bred starting with very high blonde wc adults where i have been trying to maximize the blonde .color . and have said so all along .do you know anyone ever who has bought these het sunsethypos from me bred them and hatch a clutch to find that it didn't contain a sunsethypo ? please provide this information or retract your statements. it looks like to me that all your statements are unfounded and way off base .
just because you do not see a lot of hypos on the market doesn't mean they are not real .as i said not many people have hatch true p.p of any kind ,and people that have hatched them would be unlikely to sell them and would want to keep there first hypos to breed

-----------------------------------------------------

Just got this. My response is included.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

I will also attach screen shots of other ads.

First is the "Neon Vanilla".

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Next is another "het sunset hypo" ad.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 10:54 AM
To
[email protected]
Jeff bought his from Randy Limburg and got out of the business of selling/reselling leopards some time ago. Most of the available Gpp offspring still come from Randy, but I know a handful of other breeders who have produced this year and, in some cases, for years prior.

Stop making things up when talking to me.

I look forward to the legal action for the so-called "slander". You should post clear photos of all of the homozygotes in the BOI thread to help explain yourself if you feel justified.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 10:47 AM
Subject: Re:

the glut of pardis on kingsnake though from several dealer resellers didn't produce them and likely come from a large jeff gee herd that in the past he exported by the hundres , he produces 100s of these each year and whole sales them to retailers making it look like a lot of people have them ,i do not see anyone offering any true p.pardalis of any kind that came from these 1000s sold over the years .and there has been visual sunsethypos sold on kingsnake just 2 or 3 years ago as well as others . the key question i would like to know ,did any of your friends or you breed a pair of het sunsethypo .a ethical breeder would always breed out a new morph to prove the gene is or is not as hypothesized ,so basically you guys started a think tank together and came up with this theory without proving it out first , making what you are doing just plan slander ,i will be looking into any legal action and repercussion that i can legally take against you for this unfounded slander

---------------------------------------------------

Another one. Again with my response.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

"Wanda" also forgets that *I* was the one who told her that her animals would be hets, not "sunset hypos", if the trait was a simple recessive, as she was advertising them way back when as sunset hypos before I corrected "her". I wish I still had that email. Oh, well. Too far back.

Funny how the video shows a Gpp male with his adult daughter, yet Wanda/Darik has claimed in the past to either myself or a cousin that she does not have the space for adults when she was asked why she never retained a male "het" to breed back to the dam, thereby allowing for the production of ~50% sunset hypo offspring and ~50% being hets if the trait is real. Not enough room. Okay.... Not interested in producing sunset hypos and only interested in producing hets? Rather difficult to buy that.

 

[Arizona Tortoise Compound]

I emailed Darik & Wanda and made them aware of this thread.... also stated I was a long time customer that breeds there offspring and would really like for them to come here and prove the Hypos finally.

I purchased a 10 lot of Libyan Greek hatchlings from them a few years back and they were all Syrian & Ibera Greeks, not Libyans. After I purchased the 10 lot of Libyans and before they arrived, Darik posted a wholesale lot of Ibera Greeks with the same picture as the Libyans. I emailed asking why this was and also at that time the hatchlings showed up and I expressed my concern with the difference in the species and the look of the tortoises. I didnt hear anything back from them for a while and had to send the email a few more times over the coarse of a few weeks. He then proceeded to tell me that he has a hard time telling the Libyan and Ibera greeks apart and that he might of had Iberas with the Libyans. Well two years passed, the hatchlings turned into yearlings and half were Ibera and the other half Syrians Greeks. None were Libyans. At this time I lost all hope that the sunset hypos were real.... I already had concerns about the Sunsets, do to the lack of proof they could offer.

I do have a (2.1) 100% hets that I have had for many years. Currently breeding the 100% het males to normal P.P. Leo female and producing 66% possible hets. The 100% het female is not large enough to breed yet. I offer my 66% het hatchlings at normal P.P. Leo prices due to the lack of proof that the Hypos are real.


Nickolas, the videos you shared broke my heart and further makes me think that the thousands of dollars and the years invested into my Sunset Hypo project will be a waste.
The male in the video is the male in the original photo mounting the pink tortoise. Remember the photo that the grass was pink too and the males shell also had a pink hue to it. ( Do you have this picture, please share it) If I owned a pink and black Leopard Tortoise, I would be sharing those videos rather then my motorcycle or of a male biting my finger with a normal female. The setup in very disappointing as well. I can now see how they were able to steal Wanda and Darik's Albino Snappers and all the other expensive animals they lost a few years back due to theft.
I hope Wanda and Darik will come onto this BIO with video proof that shows clearly that the Sunset Hypo line is true. I truly believe they owe this to all the hundreds of customers over the years that they received money from.

Also Randy Limburg is the founder of the Pardalis Pardalis Leopards in the states. Randy imported his herd over 25 years ago. He did sell to Jeff G for sometime until he got ripped off by him for thousands of dollars. Then Jeff got cut off. Jeff lied his a** off about the whole thing and is a horrible person. Hints why he is out of the business. Randy also was selling to a gentleman on the east coast, a gentleman on TFO and Ben S. All of those animals offered where produced from Randy Limburg from his location. My adult Pardalis Pardalis came from Randy Limburg lines. All the Pardalis Pardalis hatchlings are Randy's line except Wanda's so called hets. Randy has a large group of p.p Leos and are herd breed. Meaning there is not a bottleneck of bloodlines yet. I have been producing Pardalis Pardalis hatchlings and 66% possible Het hatchlings for some time now. Randy and I are good friends and I am providing his tortoises to the reptile community. I am honest with tortoise community and customers when asked about the bloodlines. I am also producing my own bloodlines that are a mix of Randy's and Wanda's.

Reading the email response you got from Wanda is the exact same thing she has been saying for years. Still with no proof. Very upsetting!!!!!!!

Pictures of the blue hatchling, that is the same look as my hatchling pardalis pardalis when they come out of the incubator. Its a lack of oxygen and or light. Once the tortoises are placed outdoors, they darken up. Shame on them for this.

It the Sunset Hypos are true, they should have pictures, videos or someone that could back them. Most all breeders agree with you Nickolas, but don't bother with the BIO crowd. Vanilla Neon Dwarf Leopards took them down a huge notch on the Reptile community ladder. Tons of people are upset at this, they are line breed animals that are light in color, not Vanilla, not Neon , not dwarf. They should be proud to be able to line breed for a lighter color and accomplish it, but labeling them that way is horrible and doesnt work for the tortoise community. There is no such thing as Ivory Leopards Tortoises and Vanilla Neon Dwarf Leopard Tortoises, all just sale pitches or at best line breed animals for lighter traits.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 12:10 PM
To
[email protected]
Feel free to furnish ample photographic evidence of multiple sunset hypo F2s and add such to the BOI thread to help support your claims.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:03 PM
Subject: Re:

i have not heard from jeff gee in many years since he was posting on kingsnake as cbw foundation ,but that was what jeff told me back then ,i don't know what he has been dong since then but that is what he told me back then , at any rate his large herd is still in production today in the usa which would account for dealers having a lot to sell . so there is only a hand full of people who live where the eggs can be left in ground and after all these years of large numbers of pp produced by jeff randy and a handful of others , only a handful produce this year and mostly randy puts out the rest .so over all these years 1000s of pp have been produced in the USA and only these few people have ever hatched any . i have averaged about 20 pp some years much less since 2004/5 so maybe i produced 100 to 150 tortoises , out of these because i am in va and ground hatch these for part of the year likely high male ,i have only seen males for resale on line, the earliest hets have produced visual hypos and have been sold on kingsnake , a number of these het sunsethypos have been sold local to friends in my herp club and there are a few females ,the biggest ones are in the 10 inch range and none have yet to produce , and only a few have ever been sold where they can be left outside year around to ground hatch , you have yet to tell me if you or the hand full of people that hatched pp have bred any het sunsethypo ? or for that matter do you or any of your friends even have a sexed pair of sunset hypo? because i sell these often 1 or 2 or 3 at a time and sometimes a quantity group that gets resold one or two at a time ,not to mention some do not survive to adult size , out of the few that i have sold i am not even sure this soon that there are any adult females other then one or two from early hatching . females need to be much larger then males and take longer to grow other then the early on few there may not even be a adult female at this time. so you are trying to compare the handful of people who reproduce these or had some luck hatching these this year ,when 1000s were put on the maket over the last 40 years as well as wc still producing , as well as numbers of wc imports that were brought in , to the tiny cb number that i have put out not know if any females are large enough to breed yet ,we do not even now anyone at this time who has a adult breeding pair of het sunsethypo .you and your friends included . it makes me curous as to your motivation having all the p.pardalis breeders as your friends , and none it seems have bred any het sunsethypo hmmm

------------------------------------------------------

Yet again.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 12:26 PM
To
[email protected]
You can provide photos when you have them to refute the beliefs stated in that thread.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:24 PM
Subject: Re:

Hello Nick ,i am going to track down , and contact my earliest customers and request pictures . until then i think it is only fair that you either pull your thread , or add to it that you and your buddies have not bred together any het sunsethypo pp nor have tried to produced any sunsethypos to prove your suspicions nor know anyone who has, and plan to confirm or re tracked your statement once all facts are in .

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Andrew, here is the photo you requested. It comes with some others.

The first photo is the mating shot used in many of the het ads.

The second is a nesting shot used in some of the het ads.

The third is a supposed F2 from years back on an odd background that has been speculated to have been a shop job, although I do not know. Somehow there have been no other posted photos I have seen to date of a claimed F2 and I do not trust this one.

The fourth is a photo I found that seems to have been corrected for color. No magical pink hue. Open both this photo and the first photo in the Microsoft Office imaging program or any program that lets you quickly go back and forth with your left and right arrows so your eyes can catch the color shifts. Notice how the magical reddish/pinkish grass, magical reddish/pinkish soil, and magical reddish/pinkish tortoise hue somehow (magically) reverts to green grass, grey soil, and the standard coloration for a big and old high white/yellow leopard tortoise.... Color me a skeptic.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 1:09 PM
To
[email protected]
Nice try.

The original claim (your claim) is that these ARE hets and that these are a heritable trait. In logical argument, the one to stake a claim is the party with the onus to defend it. I believe your original claim to be false. That nobody has been coming forward with these as proven out speaks loudly, fueling my skepticism. You have employed every excuse for the lack of evidence you have provided. Supply an adequate set of evidence and I will reconsider the validity of your claim. Until then, it seems like there is no veracity to the trait.

Feel free to post the multitude of evidence you must have to support your claims. Until then, I do not believe anything you have claimed with regard to this topic and pseudo-morph.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Hypo CH/RF hatchlings

you are trying to portray your self as a honest person ,but clearly you have something you do not want to be forthcoming about ,that is i have asked you twice now . have you or your p.pardalis breeder friends or anyone you know of , bred a a pair of adult het sunsethypo pair to confirm any of your accusations , why do you refuse to answer the question ? are you afraid your accusations are baseless and do not want the real truth to come out .why would you try to hide this information? why cant you just be honest and put the whole truth on the table ,or at this point do you think it would damage your credibility to answer this question .pride is a hard pill to swollow ,

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Had the Neon Vanilla Nonsense not been posted after claiming not to have enough room for an adult male het sunset hypo, I might have held out hope. I really wanted these to be real. Unfortunately, it appears to me to lean away from that direction.

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 1:30 PM
To
[email protected]
Incorrect.

You seem to be getting more desperate.

I *believed* you, unfortunately, until your Neon Vanilla make-believe broke the credibility camel's back when you started posting that charade not so long ago.

After that, I moved my remaining three Gpp het sunset hypo animals I had acquired (at a reduced combo price in line with the high end of Gpp costs/prices for sex, size, color, and shell condition). I did not charge my (your) usually Gpp het sunset hypo prices for them once I saw through the ruse.

I have only acquired two male Gpp animals known to have nothing to do with your animals from a gentleman in FL. I also acquired a female Gpp from a fellow in Texas who said he bought her from *you* in 2010, although I stated I could not be sure if she was in fact a het for sunset hypo animal, so she was sold at the typical rate for a young adult female Gpp. These three were resold for ~$1200ish and ~$500-600ish for the two males and ~$1400-1500ish for the female. Again, not claimed to be hets because the origin was not known to be such.

The rest were resold as exactly what you labeled them as before I had lost all faith in your claims and found myself overwhelmed by your excuses. I often sold them at or near my cost (your prices) despite my having grown them out appreciably, too, in most instances. The final three from you, as mentioned above, were sold at a reduced group price with a mentioned caveat that I consider the trait not fully proven.

I have no reason to hide any of this, so enjoy this, as I am posting it all for everyone to observe. I think full disclosure here is a good thing.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:15 PM
Subject: Re: Hypo CH/RF hatchlings

another thing that is concerning for me , is that when you posted your het sunsethypos you really talked them up , nice sales pitch i saw the ads ,in the earlier email you said you and your friends hated them they were fake and thats why you sold yours without any of you breeding them to see for yourself but you didn't saying anything like that when you had them up for sale in fact you were really a supporter of the sunsethypo . which really speecks to your character and honesty . at this point anyone who bought them from you must be worried that you pulled a switch and kept the real ones having all these p.p breeder friends of yours or so you say

 

[nickolasanastasiou]

Nickolas Anastasiou Today at 1:32 PM
To
[email protected]
You called them sunset hypos until I told you they would actually be hets back in 2006 or 2007, which is when I first became aware of them. Going by your timeline, you were inaccurately labeling these, whether on purpose or by mistake, after you had already claimed these were "proven" before I came to know of them.

I do not believe your claims.

From: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2014 1:21 PM
Subject: Re: Hypo CH/RF hatchlings

when these first came out in my ads i stated that the gene was unproven and that if an when the genes proves out the price will go up , the gene proved out many years later ,from a het to het breeding from the few that hatched back in 2000 2001 ,there were four hypos one was sold on kingsnake . you just have not been following along or you would have know this already