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Want to build a semiaquatic "micro" ecosystem

W

waddlecaudle

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Let me start by saying that I KNOW exactly what most of you are going to say. Don't mix animals and stick with one. I agree that this can be the case, especially with larger animals and smaller tanks. I, however, want some smaller animals and have a 55 gallon tall tank that I wanted to put ~2" of water in and have the rest foliage. What I honestly wanted was a type of lizard or salamander to go in the water and some type of tree dwelling frog so they will almost have their own space. I know there have to be some types of animals that can do well together in such a large tank especially if they are introduced at a younger age and remain about the same size. Any input? I am thinking rain forest setting (I would love dart frogs or green tree frogs but I hear the darts are too small for the tank and the green tree frogs are too aggressive). Any input other than don't do it is appreciated :)
 
Also I know the humidity differences between tree and water dwellers makes an issue. I have figured it out with a humidifier pipe from a humidifier to the bottom of the tank and a pipe to a dehumidifier at the top. I can get the bottom to ~80% and the top at ~55% if it needs to be that drastic. Also, using foliage for shading and heating pads on the outside of the tank I can fluctuate areas of the tank up to 30 degrees. I have tinkered with the tank a bit and have figured out some good ways to make it fairly flexible. Again just looking for some suggestions, I will research the suggestions further myself and will only pursue this further if it seems like it is could make a good safe environment
 
A 55g tank is still pretty small for considering multiple species. It is in no way too big for dart frogs and think a tank that size is better than the 10-20 gallon sizes you see others use. That said, still too small for mixing species, IMO.
 
I thought 55 gallons were too big for darts for a few reasons. I thought that you ran the risk of them not finding all the food you put in for them (a herp guy at a show said he ended up with a fruit fly infestation in his enclosure when his frogs didn't get all the ones he put in don't know how true that is), they have more room to hide meaning you don't see them as often and can't check on their condition and make sure they are healthy as often, and any other potential tank neighbors would be too big for them. Again I would rather hear from people that have input towards compatibility as opposed to going against the idea. Years ago people would have said keeping large lizards, gators, and anacondas wasn't possible yet here we are on a forum that supports it. Maybe the reason most haven't been successful is because people immediately shoot down the idea as opposed to figuring out the proper balance, care, and time it takes to achieve a goal so many people appear to be interested in. If you have tried a ecosystem tell me what went wrong, but to just say it can't work its a bad idea goes against progression. I don't see a 3" frog that eats fruit flies trying to eat a 4" salamander that eats tiny minnows, especially if one is a tree dweller and one a water dweller, there would very little interaction, they would be readily fed, and there are definitely low aggression/territorial species.
 
waddlecaudle said:
I thought 55 gallons were too big for darts for a few reasons. I thought that you ran the risk of them not finding all the food you put in for them (a herp guy at a show said he ended up with a fruit fly infestation in his enclosure when his frogs didn't get all the ones he put in don't know how true that is), they have more room to hide meaning you don't see them as often and can't check on their condition and make sure they are healthy as often, and any other potential tank neighbors would be too big for them. Again I would rather hear from people that have input towards compatibility as opposed to going against the idea. Years ago people would have said keeping large lizards, gators, and anacondas wasn't possible yet here we are on a forum that supports it. Maybe the reason most haven't been successful is because people immediately shoot down the idea as opposed to figuring out the proper balance, care, and time it takes to achieve a goal so many people appear to be interested in. If you have tried a ecosystem tell me what went wrong, but to just say it can't work its a bad idea goes against progression. I don't see a 3" frog that eats fruit flies trying to eat a 4" salamander that eats tiny minnows, especially if one is a tree dweller and one a water dweller, there would very little interaction, they would be readily fed, and there are definitely low aggression/territorial species.
Click to expand...

I gave you my opinion and never said it can't be done. I have seen dart frogs kept in 75g tanks with no problems. The frogs learn where and when you are going to introduce the fruit flies and as long as you do not over feed, you will not have any issues. However, mixing the species can add to stress, competition, and possible fighting. Many species cover a much larger area in nature than a 55g tank. When they come across another species, they can keep their distance. This doesn't hold true in a small tank and I feel you are overestimated the size of a 55g aquarium.

I apologize because I just re-read your initial post and seen where you only wanted input from those who think it is a good idea. I guess I should have never posted at all and will leave you to your objective research on the subject.
 
bsharrah said:
I gave you my opinion and never said it can't be done. I have seen dart frogs kept in 75g tanks with no problems. The frogs learn where and when you are going to introduce the fruit flies and as long as you do not over feed, you will not have any issues. However, mixing the species can add to stress, competition, and possible fighting. Many species cover a much larger area in nature than a 55g tank. When they come across another species, they can keep their distance. This doesn't hold true in a small tank and I feel you are overestimated the size of a 55g aquarium.

I apologize because I just re-read your initial post and seen where you only wanted input from those who think it is a good idea. I guess I should have never posted at all and will leave you to your objective research on the subject.
Click to expand...


Sorry if I seemed snappy and do appreciate your input. I know that a lot of people think that a mini ecosystem can't be done and it can be stressful for the animals. I just think that done with attention to every detail it could be possible. I appreciate the response on the dart frogs too, I would love to have some but have always just heard that anything over 30g and they get hard to see and are hard to keep an eye on health/temperament wise.
 
this sounds like an awesome idea and i am wanting to do something a lot like that but i will be an amazon type with a "river" area with some amazonian fish along with an Iguana and it will be plenty big enough for the Iguana. If anyone has ever watched tanked on animal planet or discovery (i dont remember) i will have them do the river part with the fish along with the actual enclosure and i will do the terrarium area.
 
I know you don't want input from those who feel differently from you, but hey, its a free country, and I don't care.

No, I don't believe in micro-ecosystems for herps, emphasis on MICRO. I do believe that with great care, dedication and attention, larger mixed habitats can be done...but in general, most people don't think big enough. Remember that these animals are not confined to 30-55 gal tank spaces in nature; they have been finding their food just fine for hundreds/thousands of years without our help. So the whole "they-can't-find-food-in-a-big-tank" argument is rather bogus in my opinion.

I'll refrain from launching into my typical "herps are NOT fish" lecture for now. IN your case, and the species you're thinking about working with, I would go with a 75-gallon honestly. Its the same length and height as a 55, but that extra width/depth makes a world of different. 55 gals are so narrow, its hard to landscape and decorate them well IMHO. The larger footprint of a 75 gives you a little more elbow room to work with.
 
It isn't that I don't care to hear the input, it is just that I have heard it before and read it before. There are tons of people out there that say it can't be done or shouldn't be done for this reason or that reason, but that haven't tried it themselves to know if those reasons actually hold true. That is why I want input from people that have something to say on the other end, since they never get to speak their opinions without people opposed to it flooding the thread. Reptiles and fish are not the same, you are right, but the principle of cohabitation is the same. Given enough space and the proper environment combined with compatible fish makes a great tank. I don't see how having a tank with a tree dweller that has separate drinking sources so won't have any real need to go anywhere near the water wouldn't work with animals, such as newts, that spend 90% of their time in the water and the other 10% on the bank. Especially if the animals aren't known to be aggressive or territorial. You are right, their natural environments give them more space, but that doesn't mean that given a smaller environment they would ever really run into one another. If I put a burrower like a tegu in an enclosure with a tree would it climb it to the top? No, it would stay where is natural for them, thus tree dwellers would tend to spend their time at the top of the enclosure and the water dwellers at the bottom in the water. Not to say they wouldn't have any interaction, but again if they are non-aggressive, non-territorial omnivores that both are about 2-3" I don't see altercations being a huge issue. Also mind you I am not talking about 30 frogs and 40 newts. I want ~3 of each. Also, I can give you about a million logical reasons as to why any animal doesn't need to be kept captive at all, but it is a hobby for millions so let the progression continue. Once people finally have the opportunity to learn from each others actual experience you may find that great things can be accomplished :)
 
Herps do not read caresheets or books. What I am getting at is that a lot of herp species I have worked with have a tendency to venture out of their "normal" behavior, especially when introduced in a relatively confined area with other species. This pertains to diet and habitat preference. The moment you commit to an absolute (i.e. ____ is strictly arboreal and would NEVER go down to the bottom of the cage), then I can almost guarantee that animal will prove you wrong.

I cna give you more specific examples from my own experiences if you would like. But it's not just a space, but indeed, increasing the space increases your own chances of success.
 
I completely agree and understand. Sorry, sometimes I can be a little too brash about my comments. I know that they can and will go wherever they want whenever they want in the cage. That is why I feel that the species are important. I don't see a 3" newt eating a 2" frog (since it would deviate greatly from their normal diet, and as long as the species weren't known to be territorial it would be odd to see it as an attack gesture). Does this mean that they won't try? Of course not, they could very easily kill themselves or the other trying to defend itself or its territory. The goal is to try to find two animals that it would be a rarity to see this from. If everyone was under the assumption that things would fail no matter what from the get go, this would be a sad world we live in. If no one helps me figure out the closest to right way to do this, I will probably just try it on my own and let everyone know how it goes and what needs fixed. Gotta start somewhere.
 
well what i think is that if you have species that are around each other in the wild then you have a better chance such as my idea of the amazon river side enclosure. With the right species of fish and right species of reptiles you can get it right. Also the micro ecosystems is true with all mans creations to house animals because we cannot make a full size ecosystem because you would need and entire country or more to make a full sized ecosystem.
 
I'm not resolutely against any form of mixed-species habitat. Just in my experience, so many attempt it terribly wrong, and fail miserably (usually the animals suffer), and very very few people actually know what the heck they're doing. Forgive me if my observations have made me a little cynical on the subject. For good reason, I typically don't advise just anyone to try it. I just don't like to see animals die needlessly because of a keeper's ignorance.

I don't know anything about you from the next guy, but I have to ask: have you kept any of the species you plan to do with this before, separately? If not, maybe you should try keeping them. I'm not an amphibian expert, but dart frogs aren't exactly the easiest frogs to keep. Perhaps try your hand with them for a few months, before attempting them in a mixed habitat.

Zechariah's right, too: I think focusing on a particular ecosystem may yield better results. Don't go throwing species from different continents together. There may be little risk of combat or anyone eating a cagemate, but I would worry more about pathogen or disease transmission. You wouldn't want a North American treefrog getting exposed to the slime coat of an Asian newt that its body is not prepared for.
 
I do not plan on having any animals from even different areas of their respective continents, non-the-less different parts of the world. I actually plan on keeping two separate 30 gallon tanks with the separate species for a few months before introducing them. I also don't really want dart frogs, I was just using them as an example. Also, if I introduce them and notice any signs of stress or problems I will separate them immediately. I completely understand the concern with it and I understand it is selfish of me to say it is a risk that I feel is worth taking, but I feel that it is something that can be successful and both animals can thrive. A lot of people assume they can throw together a forests worth of creatures and have it work. Right now I am looking at Three red spotted newts and three American green tree frogs Both species thrive in the southeast US, the frog grows to have a body length ~2 1/2 inches while the red spotted newt grows to be around 4. The only issue I see being a possible problem is that the newts can secrete a toxin into the water when threatened. However, it only seems to have strong effects on smaller fish and can be easily filtered, with the amount of water it would be highly unlikely that the toxins would cause any issues from the frogs drinking it (and I plan on having misters so that they can drink the water from the foliage). And heck, considering that you can house 3 of each in a 10 gallon tank, I think the 55 might just give them enough space to move around.
 
Any opinions on the toxins. I literally just called a friend that is a herp guy that loves geckos and newts to ask him about the toxins. He said that they red spotted newts are fairly toxic, but that it shouldn't bother them unless they mess with them. Not a chance I really want to take want to take. Newts just seem to be too much of a liability I believe. I will figure out animals that have all the compatibilities I need, that is part of this thread... to get ideas :)
 
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