WARNING: GRAPHIC CONTENT:Pythons yield hides for specialty items

[dturner100]

Mark, they may or may not feel pain after decapitation but I'd think that a bite response at that point would be similar to the bite response from an alligator when something touches the surface of its tongue. More of a nervous twitch. No?

 

[dturner100]

Sorry Paul. I misunderstood what you were saying.

 

[Paul Kent]

MS - Sorry for grilling with my questions. I have a bad habit of continuing to ask about things until I understand them.

 

[Paul Kent]

So now that we're (or at least I) am WAYYY off topic....Ill let you guys bet back to it

 

[Moonstone]

I dont really know, and dont decapitate reptiles. As a breeder, there will come a time (and I have not had to) when I will, as a last resort only, dispatch a sick or old animal. I went to the internet and looked up euthenasia (i cant spell i know) and came across a veternary website that discuessed the best methods and decapitation and freezing were UNACCEPTABLE. If and when that time comes I will take my animals to the vet for lethal injection. Lethal injection and co2 were the perfered methods.

 

[R. Eventide]

You'd have to know more about the neurology of a reptile before you assume to know the most humane way to extinguish it's life.

Freezing it would not make for a quick brumation. In most theories available freezing a reptile would be a very miserable experience as it would be for any animal reptile or not.

No, it is not. It is a reality. One that is important for us to face, both as individuals & as a group.

All the screaming and cursing in the world does not change facts, nor does it offer a constructive solution to the real problem at hand. All it does is make us look like hot headed morons ~ just as our opposition portrays us to be.

In case the issue at hand has been lost in the senseless posturing I'll summarize.

Zarmarti has violated Florida's licensing policies for the legal capture and euthanasia of captured feral burms, he also most likely neglected to have it checked for a microchip.

In my opinion his license needs to be permanently revoked, he should turn over the money he made from the illegally harvested burm(s), he should be fined & we as a group should black list his breeding/supply business.

By not following the law he is nothing more than a poacher operating on Federal land & should be treated as such.

Freezing reptiles and decapitation are both considered inhumane by the AVA. Freezing makes them immobile, but they can still feel. As they freeze ice crystals form in the muscles and tissues causing an aggonizing, slow death. I see stupid people in forums all the time telling people to freeze their reptiles to kill them. The slow metabolism of the snakes makes decapitation a slow painful process. As someone who kills and processes animals for a living, I am sure he has little compassion for the animals he is killing in these horrible photos.

For the person who feels that removing the snakes from the everglades is going to save our pets, you couldnt be more wrong. HSUS and PETA are backing legislation (a violation of their 501c3 status) to take away our rights to have pets and is using the overstated "problem" of the everglades to justify their agenda of no animals for food, no animals for experimentation, no animals for entertainment (circus and zoos) and no pets. If not the everglades propaganda, they will latch on to something else. Nothing will stop them short of taking away their 501c3 status and exposing them for what they are. There are 250,000 animal rights fanatics holding 63,000,000 pet owning house holds hostage.

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I simply feel that the pythons are getting the short end of the stick in all this. Everyone is focusing on the pythons because they're big, nasty, man-eaters that will purposely slither their way into your homes to eat your children. Know how many invasive species there are in the Everglades?

65 species of reptiles, 13 species of birds, 4 species of amphibians, 58 species of fish, 22 species of mammals, 38 species of insect, 23 species of mollusk, 10 species of crustaceans, 15 species of arachnids, and 130 species of plant. (Reference 1, Reference 2)

And everyone is focused on one snake. Out of ~380 species, many of which are far more destructive than a mere Burm.

The Burmese python is nothing more than a scapegoat--an invasive scapegoat, but a scapegoat nonetheless. The media is portraying pythons as the only invasive species in southern Florida, preying on these cute, little, fuzzy endangered mammals (which have been found in the stomach of a python how many times? once?).

Can you imagine the public outrage if a media outlet showed a parrot being decapitated? Or a cute, little fuzzy mammal being inhumanely killed on national TV? Why is it okay to do this to a reptile but not okay if the animal is a fuzzy? Why is it okay to just outright kill, maim, and [basically] torture these animals, but if you do it to a feral cat, holy cow, be prepared to get your butt sued off and possibly thrown in jail. And no, I'm not kidding or being hyperbolic.

What people don't understand is that there is no going back to the Everglades-that-was. Yes, we can keep the area from getting worse--and we should--but it's not going to get better. And quite frankly, blaming all the Everglades problems on a python is like worrying about water damaging a deck of cards when your house is flooding.

 

[Moonstone]

I agree. Propaganda, a la animal planet and monster quest make it very acceptable to kill pythons. You will never eliminate the invasive species. The legislation I am talking about isnt about helping animals, or saving the planet, it is about forcing the opinions of a few on the many. I dont know about you guys, but i dont do "Church of England".

In the end, the animals always lose.

 

[dturner100]

Wow. Very good point Krystal.

 

[Paul Kent]

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I simply feel that the pythons are getting the short end of the stick in all this. Everyone is focusing on the pythons because they're big, nasty, man-eaters that will purposely slither their way into your homes to eat your children. Know how many invasive species there are in the Everglades?

65 species of reptiles, 13 species of birds, 4 species of amphibians, 58 species of fish, 22 species of mammals, 38 species of insect, 23 species of mollusk, 10 species of crustaceans, 15 species of arachnids, and 130 species of plant. (Reference 1, Reference 2)

And everyone is focused on one snake. Out of ~380 species, many of which are far more destructive than a mere Burm.

The Burmese python is nothing more than a scapegoat--an invasive scapegoat, but a scapegoat nonetheless. The media is portraying pythons as the only invasive species in southern Florida, preying on these cute, little, fuzzy endangered mammals (which have been found in the stomach of a python how many times? once?).

Can you imagine the public outrage if a media outlet showed a parrot being decapitated? Or a cute, little fuzzy mammal being inhumanely killed on national TV? Why is it okay to do this to a reptile but not okay if the animal is a fuzzy? Why is it okay to just outright kill, maim, and [basically] torture these animals, but if you do it to a feral cat, holy cow, be prepared to get your butt sued off and possibly thrown in jail. And no, I'm not kidding or being hyperbolic.

What people don't understand is that there is no going back to the Everglades-that-was. Yes, we can keep the area from getting worse--and we should--but it's not going to get better. And quite frankly, blaming all the Everglades problems on a python is like worrying about water damaging a deck of cards when your house is flooding.

I agree with 95% of that. I do think that the reason that burms get all of the attention though is because they're most likely the only one of those species that poses a physical threat to people. And by that I mean the ability to harm a person. Fair? Not even a little. But on some level understandable. I just wish they didnt make them out to be monsters

 

[dturner100]

Paul: The sad thing is that in the Everglades where they don't belong they could easily be explained as a monster. If nature needed a burm in the everglades for population control it would have been put there by nothing less than nature itself.

In its native land the burm has a very useful purpose. In Florida it is simply a monster. We mostly feel the way we do because we feel empathy for them as if each of them was our pet. Natural for us as snake keepers.

 

[Paul Kent]

I like to think Im a good mix of both sides. No one wants to see a dead snkes less than I do but on the other side I like to think Im realistic about problems and what may need to be done in order to fix them (or at least attempt to fix them). Sometimes its an ugly fix but its for the greater good.

 

[Goombas Reptiles]

I THINK U REALIZE THAT ITS NOT AS MUCH AS PEOPLE LETTING THEM GO IT THE BREEDING FACILITIES THAT GET HIT BY THE STORMS THAT CAUSED THE BIG PROBLEM

You are correct, but the people who want to shut us down will say that if there was no demand for these animals, there wouldnt have been so many in those facilites to begin with. They will go down the list of excuses until they are blue in the face.

Someone mentioned other non native species somewhat being ignored. Yes, that is true also. This issue isnt exactly unbiased. People arent complaining about the pretty parrots that are taking over. Its the ugly big mean scaly monsters they want out because they pose a direct threat to people, not only the ecosystem. The birds (amongst other invasive species) are not going to eat their precious little dogs and cats, so they are allowed to stay.

One question, and only because this is yet another beat-around-the-bush issue, but if this guy is making products out of python skin, even though he is using wild caught, non native "pests" wouldnt that expand or create more of a demand for these skin products across the board? If people see this stuff and want it, they might not necessarily buy from him. And if they do all buy from him, he might not be able to meet his demand with the wild caught ones and decide its time to import. Sounds sorta like a cirlce jerk to me, but I am merely speculating and expecting the worst. Just my thoughts.

 

[brd7666]

On the plus side, the OP looks like a total cry-baby now. Apparently the proof of something happening as in documentation changes whether or not it happened to begin with.

I wish I lived in an Orwellian society too!

I don't know why you would be calling me a cry baby. I am not crying about anything. The only thing I had to say was, and I quote, " It's a shame they allow this to be shown.", that's it. So where am I crying. I think it's a shame because you don't see them posting videos and pics of other animals being slaughtered. It is just one more thing adding to the big circus this whole thing has become. I was only posting an artical about herps in the news to show my fellow herpers what is going on so they are aware.

SORRY, I DON'T KNOW HOW TO DO MULTI QUOTES. So this will have to do.

And then dturner100 said.
dturner100
Agree

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Quote:
Originally Posted by xtreme dragons
WOW AND THAT TOPIC PIC IS NOT VULGARITY ? LOL WOW

I've gotta say the vulgarity began with the photo posted by the op.

I did nothing vulgar at all. All I did was post about what a news agency posted on their web site. If you think there is some vulgarity, you should contact the news agency.

As for the killing of the feral burms, that is the law. On March 8, 2010 hunting season began for hunting the burms. A license was $25.00. All pythons caught must be destroyed.

I will say this, as much as I don't like to see the snakes killed, it has to be done. If people see this, it may actually help our cause. I considered buying a license and going down and hunting them myself, not because I would enjoy killing a snake, but to help our cause. If people see that steps are being taken to remove these and keep them in control, maybe they would be less likely to take away our animals.

There have been a few burms found with the endangered wood rat in it's stomach. The feral cats that are in the ENP are doing more damage then the burms ever will. Not only that, but tax payers are paying to feed the feral cats, and they don't even know it. That is bull crap. Why can tax payer money go to feeding feral cats?

With all of the crap that is being said about the burms, it's no wonder the general public wants them gone. The fact is, the state knows that the burms are not the biggest threat in the ENP, but they are using scare tactics and lies to convince people that they are bad. The burms really aren't hurting anything, nonnative, yes, do they eat, yes, are they being eaten, yes. They are eating native animals, but they are also being eaten by native animals. So even though they are taking from the food chain, they are also adding to it.

As long as these hunts can continue, the burm numbers can be kept to a minimum. The burms are there to stay. They will never be able to get rid of them, it just isn't possible.

This winter killed a very large percentage of burms in the ENP. The information for some reason has not yet been released, I wonder why. There are tests being done where the burms have radio transmitters in them. The rumor is, all of the burms with radio transmitters died from the cold. The person who actually does the tracking has said publically that a high number of them died, but will not say how many, and even though he said this, it was off the record. Just so you know, he posted this in the Kingsnake burm forum, if you would like to go see for yourself. This information for some reason is being held back.

The method for killing a snake really has to depend on what is going to be done with the remanes. Chopping the head off is not the best way to kill a snake, but, they were not only using the hide for leather, but they were going to eat the meat. Lethel injection might be the most humane way to kill a snake, but then the meat is useless, you can't eat it once the chemicals are injected into the animal. The head does live for about an hour, and it is fully aware of what is going on. At least these people are using as much of the snake as they can and not just throwing it in a ditch where it will just rot away.

My goal, and everyone's goal should be to do whatever it takes to save our hobby. If it means catching and killing wild, nonnative burms, then it needs to be done. Instead of arguing and calling each other names, think of better ways to help our industry. The last thing we need is to be fighting amoungst ourselves. If you want to fight, then fight the people wanting to take away our animals, they are the enemy.

 

[dturner100]

No sir. YOU did nothing vulgar other that post a harsh reality. Not to mention you also labeled the thread with a warning.

By calling the post vulgar it was not meant offensively toward you, but the photos, and situation itself is NO less vulgar. Not to mention we're blaming the OP for posting the photos, the person/persons in the photos for their involvement, etc... When in reality the fault ultimately doesn't stand with any of the above or even the government which got brought into this. In the beginning it all started with irresponsible pet ownership.

 

[WingedWolf]

Ok, the issue here is that the hunter brought the snake to a processing facility alive--that was a violation. The snakes are supposed to be killed on the spot when they are caught, not transported alive.
FWC said that severing the spine or chopping off the head was a humane way to 'euthanize' Burmese. So in that respect what the hunter did was merely in line with what he actually was told to do.
However, FWC is wrong, and severing the head from the body may not be humane. We don't know how long it takes the animal to lose consciousness, but we do know they apparently react to their environment, and are receiving sensory input, so it doesn't look so good.

The processor did not like the fact that the head was showing signs of life, so he smacked it, thus putting the animal out of its potential misery. So the processor isn't the bad guy--he has a conscience and does his best to minimize suffering.

Pithing sounds like a great way to ensure an animal is dead, but I imagine having a spike jammed into your head hurts a lot before your brains get scrambled. I'm personally in favor of smashing the head hard enough to destroy the brain as being the most humane way to dispatch a reptile (or anything else for that matter). It's brutal but that's not the point--the point is to avoid causing pain and distress to the animal, and that method neatly accomplishes that goal.

There's another part to the story as well, which is very saddening. The meat from these Burmese pythons is not safe to eat. The Everglades are so contaminated that the mercury level in the Burms is well above any safe limit (if there is such a thing, with mercury).
Burmese pythons destroying the Everglades? They've already been destroyed. The damage done by all that mercury...hardly bears thinking about.

 

[dturner100]

I'm sorry to say, but the whole mercury story is a bunch of bull. The same was said to be proven about the fish in a local river. I eat A LOT of these fish. I also eat sometimes up to 6 cans of tuna per day. Being a body builder requires a strict diet. It also requires bi-yearly doctor visits, and my mercury levels are only slightly higher than that of most other people.

You'd have to consume a fairly high concentration of mercury to change your body levels.

 

[brd7666]

The Everglades is loaded with Mercury. You can Google it and find out all kinds of stuff. I wouldn't eat anything that came out of the Everglades.

Toxic Mercury at home in the Florida Everglades

http://www.floridaenvironment.com/programs/fe00313.htm

Study: Mercury in Everglades comes from distant sources

Scientists say mercury found in parts of the Everglades, and in some of its animal population, is seven times higher than federal safety limits. The high levels have remained constant since mercury was first detected in largemouth bass nearly a decade ago.

http://www.cnn.com/EARTH/9802/13/everglades.mercury/


Aquatic Cycling of Mercury in the Everglades

http://sofia.usgs.gov/projects/index.php?project_url=evergl_merc

Does Everglades Restoration Mean More Florida Bay Mercury?

http://coastalscience.noaa.gov/news/feature/0903.html

 

[Goombas Reptiles]

I think it's a shame because you don't see them posting videos and pics of other animals being slaughtered.

Search for "slaughter" on Youtube and see what you find. Get yourself a nice stiff drink first and maybe a handful of xanax because you are going to be livid. Whales, dolphins, seals, sharks, cows, pigs, goats.....its all on there my friend.

 

[brd7666]

Search for "slaughter" on Youtube and see what you find. Get yourself a nice stiff drink first and maybe a handful of xanax because you are going to be livid. Whales, dolphins, seals, sharks, cows, pigs, goats.....its all on there my friend.

Yeah, there is some pretty nasty stuff on Youtube. I was actually refering to the news people who posted the snake pics. They just seem to make a circus out of the whole reptile thing.

 

[WingedWolf]

Information on mercury toxicity, for those curious just how dangerous it is. Keep in mind that the mercury from eating a Burm or fish from the Everglades would be methylmercury.

http://www.greenfacts.org/en/mercury/l-2/mercury-2.htm

Mercury is a nerve toxin. It damages the nervous system in adults, and causes serious brain damage and birth defects in developing fetuses.
The most important points to remember are these:
Methylmercury can cause damage to the nerves (affecting memory, coordination, etc.
The damage caused by methylmercury is irreversible.

While an adult male may not be at substantial risk from eating mercury-containing fish, women who are or may become pregnant should avoid methylmercury like the plague. Developing fetuses and children are extremely sensitive to it, and it cause very harmful effects--from reducing IQ on the low end, to extreme motor impairment and mental retardation on the high end.

So, it is probably not a good idea to eat Burmese (or predatory fish) from the Everglades.