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WATCH OUT FOR SHADIGUY 1 !

</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">lol jason you sent me the timber VIA USPS Next Day  so dont go there. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

No, I would like it to go there. Did you, or did you not ship them via USPS? As far as I'm concerned, anyone who does is one step below Jesse Underhill and deserves to be prosecuted.

You have no right whatsoever to compromise the safety of others by shipping in such an irresponsibly negligent manner. Nor do you have a right to jeopardize the hobby for those of us that have at least a shred of integrity. That goes for all parties involved.

Also, do you see the irony in your not having any paperwork for the "possible hets"? Personally, I think they're overpriced normals- as has been stated, if they're proven breeders, then their genotype should be known.  Even if you weren't the one that bred them, you shouild at least know that much.
 
I am done replying to shadiguy, I am not going to spend any more time replying to his slander,lies,ect.  HE DID GET THE PAPERWORK WHICH WAS NOT WRITTEN BY ME, IT WAS WRITTEN BY THE PERSON THAT DID THE SURGERY.  I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT IT SAYS, BUT BOTTOM LINE, YOU GOT YOUR PAPERWORK, SO DO THE WORLD A FAVOR AND TAKE A LONG WALK OFF A SHORT PIER(That is a dock, thought I would clerify those big words for ya, shadi or IS IT SLIM?).
Later,
Kevin Smith <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'>
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have no right whatsoever to compromise the safety of others by shipping in such an irresponsibly negligent manner. </td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>

I'll second Ken words. You guys have obviously a complete lack of respect for other people safety. I'm sorry but this goes beyond paperwork heteros or whatever. We are talking federal offense here for shipping snakes USPS! But shipping venomous snakes and leaving this in writing here for everyone to see? You've got to be out of your minds!

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">You have no right whatsoever to compromise the safety of others by shipping in such an irresponsibly negligent manner</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'> I will third Ken's words.
Don't these people know they are not just "breaking the company policy"  But they are in fact doing something illegal.  As a matter of fact......I thought it was a felony.
Not only that.....you are endangering the life of a government worker.  Didn't you know the government usually takes care of its own?
 
I have to tell the both of them this. I am border line about to print this whole thread, copy it, and send it to the POSTMASTER and let them handle the both of you.  IT IS A FEDERAL FELONY to ship Venomous snakes through the USPS, and the both of you (if you both did in fact ship through the USPS) need to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. You 2 are probably the 2 lowest idiots I have seen yet. There should be a thread started about both of you being BAD GUYS!!! Tito, it is time for you to SHUT YOUR MOUTH PERIOD, and Kevin, you the same!!! Both of you better hope that I don't do what I said I want to do, or that someone else does not, or the Federal Authorities do not view this. (In case you don't know, USFW do monitor alot of the online herp sites.  I know for a FACT that they are on Kingsnake.com every evening, and most likely on this site as well.
 
I never shipped dangerous reptiles through the mail.  HE SHIPPED ME PUFF ADDERS THROUGH THE MAIL! DID NO ONE READ THAT?<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'> I am not trying to start anything with anyone, I simply stated how he shipped to me.  I traded him a venomoid canebrake rattler that was everything I stated it to be.  The ONLY wrong thing I did was that I didn't get the paperwork to him right away, which I did admit was wrong, ONCE AGAIN, I DID ADMIT I WAS WRONG ON THAT PART.  HE HAS LIED ABOUT EVERYTHING THAT HE HAS SAID.
1) HE SAID HE WAS SENDING ME TANZANIAN PUFFS/ THEY WEREN'T.
2)HE SAID THE SNAKE I SENT HIM WAS HOT/ IT WAS NOT, IT WAS A VENOMOID.
3)HE SAID HE BRED THEM HIMSELF/  IT HAS BEEN STATED SEVERAL TIMES THAT HE DIDN'T.
4) HE SHIPPED HOT PUFFS TO ME USPS/ I DID NOT SHIP HIM HOT SNAKES!!!!
5) I GOT HIM PAPERWORK THAT I PROMISED/ ONCE AGAIN, HE IS LYING AND SAYING IT IS BOGUS.

Give me a break, leave my name out of this guys crap.  I REALLY don't want to hear it. I SHIP HOT SNAKES VIA DELTA.
THANKS,
Kevin Smith <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'>
 
ummmm...does anyone else see a diversion by shadiguy??  the original claim by Jason hasn't been addressed at all...or did I miss the explanation??  Seems like he diverted to an earlier topic referencing "paperwork".
 
Rob- It would be a bit premature to do so just yet. I have a feeling that we're not getting the whole story.

Kevin- Thank you for clarifying. Out of curiosity, would you have an airbill or some other form of documentation that you shipped via Delta? If you don't want to post in regards to it here, you can email me privately.

Steve- I've noticed a couple red herrings being thrown out there in this thread, including the one you mentioned. I could honestly care less about "paperwork". no matter which thread it was in. Actually, I take that back- I do find the fact that the "possible hets" aren't documented to be ironically amusing.
 
Ken,

I think if we read Kevin's post a bit more thoroughly, we will see that he probably did ship the canebrake via USPS.  Remember, Kevin is saying that the animal is a venomoid, and all he said in his CAPS laden post was that he sent "HOT" animals via Delta.  I'm guessing the canebrake was in the mail right next to Granny's social security check!

Go ahead, Kevin . . .tell me I'm wrong.  You wrote, "I never shipped dangerous reptiles through the mail."  OK, maybe not, but did you ship that venomoid canebrake through the mail?

If you did, then BOTH of you guys are equally guilty of violating the law!  The venomous puff adders were just completely hazzardous to the mail carriers as well as being illegal!!!
 
</td></tr></table><span id='postcolor'>
The venomous puff adders were just completely hazzardous to the mail carriers as well as being illegal!!!
</span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote </td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE">
I read your entire post and it was very intelligent, except for the above statement.  I really think that is completely wrong, there is a very big line between breaking the law and putting someone's life in danger.  If you ship a cornsnake through the mail you are breaking the law, but if it gets out or somehow bites someone, THEY ARE NOT IN MORTAL DANGER.  IF, on the other hand, ship say, TIMBER RATTLESNAKES OR PUFF ADDERS, and they get out and bite someone somehow, THERE ARE GOING TO BE SERIOUS PROBLEMS AND SOMEONE COULD DIE! Read that last sentence a few times and really think about it.  You are comparing apples and VERY DEADLY ORANGES. I am sure that lots of people will find some way to argue, but before they do, they should really read that last sentence a few times.
OPINIONS VARY AND THAT IS MINE, THANKS FOR READING.
Kevin Smith <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Sorry, I don't know how to use the quote option, but the statement I was referring to was:

"The venomous puff adders were just completely hazzardous to the mail carriers as well as being illegal!!!"

Thanks,
Kevin Smith <img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'>
 
Kevin,

I was not comparing the ethics of your actions to shadiguy's (that WOULD be comparing apples to oranges if it is true that your animal was a relatively harmless venomoid), but I WAS comparing the legality of the two actions (sending snakes via USPS).  In this instance it is comparing apples to apples, and I suspect that both of your barrels are rotten through and through.

Kevin, it was pretty slick of you to divert attention from my question by emphasizing what I said about the puff adders, but really, tell us the truth.  Did you, or did you not send that canebrake rattler via the USPS?  A "Yes" or "No" will suffice.  I think I already know the answer, but it would be nice if you would be man enough to just come on out and say what you did.
 
Venomoid or not, a ratllesnake is a rattlesnake is a rattlesnake. "But it was altered" is not a valid excuse. Do you think that the people who may come into contact with that snake have the luxury of knowing it was altered?

Shipping nonvenomous through the mail is bad enough, but to ship venomous/venomoids through the mail clearly demonstrates a severe lack of character. It shows everyone that you don't give a damn about the animals, or the people that they may come in contact with. All you guys care about is lining your pockets with a buck, and to hell with everything and everyone else.

As far as I'm concerned, there are folks in this thread that need to be held responsible for their actions. Feel free to print away, Rob.
 
I agree with you 100%, Ken.  I wasn't trying to imply that I thought mailing a venomoid was the moral equivalent to mailing a cornsnake.  Obviously, the poor postal worker that picks up a torn box only to find he's been bitten by a timber rattler has no idea that it was dry bite.  The very fact that anyone would put unsuspecting people in such harm's way is abhorent to any right-thinking herper.

Just to clarify my position:  Mailing any snake is illegal to do, and the offenders should be punished and avoided in the industry.  Mailing venomoids is illegal and unethical due to the added factor of possible harm coming to others by the illegal behavior.  Mailing hot snakes is illegal, unethical, and immoral because if someone get bitten, not only are they emotionally damaged, but their lives could very well be on the line too!

In any event, Kevin's silence to my direct questioning of how he sent that supposed venomoid canebrake is deafening.  He has not been back to say one way or the other what he did, but given that he would be openly admitting to the comission of a felony, it's probably the first smart thing he's (not) done.

Both of these guys ought to be jailed.  At the very least we all ought to be thankful that they were stupid enough to start talking about how they shipped to each other.  Now, we know about their complete lack of character as well.

<img src="http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':angry:'>
 
Okay, so BOTH of you are shipping VENOMOUS snakes through the USPS ILLEGALLY?  Sending snakes period through the mail is illegal(federal offense am I right?), but to send something as potentially dangerous as puff adders and your "venomoid" canebrake shows a deplorable lack of character, no thought to the law, and worst of all, no thought to the well-being of the animals.  
Quite honestly, if I was a package handler, and a box broke open, I would see a RATTLESNAKE, plain and simple!  Do you think the majority of those people handling the packages KNOW what venomoid even means, let alone even CARE?   The animal in question would most likely be destroyed and you would more than likely be going to JAIL.  
Honestly, if you are both guilty of this, then you Kevin Smith and you Espedito Fink are both fools AND crooks(and a whole list of other names I won't post here) and you both deserved what you got from each other.
 
And just out of curiosity to those who might know more than I do(and this was mentioned in the venomoid thread), if one of those package handlers got bitten by a puff adder or the canebrake in transit and DIED, wouldn't that be considered MURDER?
 
Whether a person dying in such a way would be considered murder really depends upon where it is that the event took place.  Obviously, there would be federal charges, because of the mail system being involved, but the local and state authorities would have primary jurisdiction in regard to the death of the package handler.

Each state has various tweakings of the basic standards of what is murder or not, but the standard delineation of homicide goes something like this:


1st degree murder -- The taking of a human life with premeditation, a dispassionate crime in the sense that "the heat of the moment" is not a determining factor.

Manslaughter -- The taking of a human life through accidental means (whether by negligence or otherwise); the intent to kill is not present.

2nd degree murder -- Any taking of a human life that is neither 1st degree murder nor manslaughter; this is the "in between class" of killings (ie: A guy walks in, finds his wife in bed with another man, and kills them both in a fit of rage).


Given that neither of these two individuals would have sent the animals through the mail with the intent to kill anyone (after all, they're hoping that they're never found out), I would say that they would be guilty of manslaughter if one of their snakes bit a package handler, causing death.  However, any state may have a different determination as to what constitutes murder, and you just never know what a ticked off jury will do either!

Regardless, this practice shows a complete disregard for the safety of others or the animals in question.  I say again, these two should be in adjoining cells.  Then they could continue their "You messed me over worse than I messed you over" argumentation through iron bars!
 
Agreed.  Thank you for the clarification Darin.  Although it might not legally be declared murder, in my book it would be murder.  Just as if someone sent some C-4 through the mail and it went off and killed several package handlers.  The person may not have had the intent of endangering anyone at that time, but people died due to their actions.  I may be acting harsh, but I think this is NO different.  These two guys sent hazardous animals illegally through the post office and knowingly(they knew what they were shipping)endangered the lives of the people handling those boxes.  
Also, a venomoid is still number one a snake(so illegal to ship through USPS anyway) and number two STILL a hot species of snake no matter what surgery its had(and therefore should be handled as such).  And I don't see the poor guy who gets bit through a tear in the box saying later, "oh since the rattlesnake had surgery to make it safe, it's ok that i got bit by it, you're forgiven."  
Rob, I personally think that this thread should be printed and sent to the appropriate parties.  I am debating doing this myself if you will not.
 
Chance,
  If you reread the posts, I think they're only talking about people who ship snakes by USPS, not the private ground carriers. Hope this helps clear things up.
 
Chance, we're not talking about "any ground carrier". The snakes were alleged to have been shipped via the US Postal Service, so your example of receiving nonvens via a private ground carrier is a moot point.

This isn't about violating the policy of a private company. This is about violating Federal law, and endangering the safety of others.
 
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