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What are you guys breeding this season?

Spiders?

Ah, sounds like a good time to buy! Hopefully, I'll get lucky first time out, if not, I can probably scrounge up the cash for a spider at those prices. (See, the breeding is an excuse to buy more snakes, at least at this point. =)

If it’s because of personal preference then yes, it’s the right time to buy by all means. Looking at it from a strictly “investment” perspective I’m not so sure. Spiders droped in price too fast, even if one considers the way the trait is inherited. There seems to be more it, something with the preference of the general public for the morph. They are very nice looking snakes, but there is something telling me not everyone feels the same.

Regards
 
It would be interesting to study the factors in historical spider pricing.

Did the lack of a verified homozygous spider (either looking the same or different than a regular spider) so far contributed to last year's drop?

Had news of the weird neurological symptoms some have (I've heard it described as rolling their heads back) when young gotten out before it finally broke on kingsnake recently and had that effected pricing?

My bet is still that the main factor was price fixing early in the morph's history. My theory is that the current price is about what a prolific dominant type morph ought to be this far in but that price fixing prevented the normal slow and steady rate of fall and pent up extra supply pressure allowing a sudden drop when the price fixing finally failed. I remember early on the founder took some public heat for even a small drop between one of the first few years the morph was available. It was as if the early buyers really expected the price to hold absolutely steady as quantity increased. It sounds like there was incredible pressure on the early sellers to hold the high initial price. I think if the price had been allowed to settle more naturally there would have been less risk for the 2nd and 3rd tier buyers but with their prolific nature even they should do ok eventually.

If I produce and sell anything of note this year a male spider will be high on my purchase list just because I feel that after last year's price correction they should now be more stable. I realize they should still continue to fall steadily (even $4k is still a heck of a lot more than it costs to produce one) but the potential for another big sudden drop seems less to me now than for say some of the more expensive dominant type morphs which are still in few enough hands that price fixing may still be a factor.
 
Spiders fell the same way all dominant genes will. You had a dozen or more people outside the big name group who had purchased one or two spiders the previous season and bred them to every animal they could find. Some guys bred 1 male to a dozen females. Ac ouple guys almost killed their males, literally, trying to produce as much as possible and the market went from high demand/low supply, to an unanticipated glut of the morph being for sale and several of the sources were ones that most people had not heard of. It was too much for the market to absorb at the prices they were posted at. So in order to sell them the price had to adjust, especially with the next season right around the corner.

I have a different view of the spider as a purchase too. I have not bought any. I am waiting to get my target price, that I set a couple years back, and I only want 4-5 female spiders. I want to just shoot for producing bumble bees and pied spiders. Regardless of the spider market, those are solid projects for years to come and I have the males to get going on those. The bumble bee spider is without a doubt one of the most amazing looking animals I have ever seen and there is no down side to having bumble bees or killer bees a few years down the road to help create the new triple and quad homozygous morphs.
 
I think the price dropping is a simple market adjustment. The morph isn't difficult to produce, being a co-dominant or dominant trait, and the pricing early on was being artificially controlled. Now, in regards to investment vs. personal preference:

The spider isn't my favorite morph. In fact, I like several morphs better. However, they are a striking morph, being very easily distinguished from a normal, and I believe the demand is there, and will stay there. First, on their own merits, they'll be desirable, second, they'll be desired as a component in many designer morphs. My real personal preference is for a bumblebee. =) The spider and any female pastels I produce will be toward that end. So, my pastel project and my projected spider project are both to found my bumblebee project.

I'm not too concerned with the pricing of the spider for a couple reasons. First, let's say that I pick up a male for today's prices of around $10k. (I've seen them from $8k to 12k recently, so I'm just picking a number in between.) Now, let's say that male spiders drop to 5k in 2006. My boy still isn't ready to go yet. Let's say when he does breed, in 2007, prices have taken another steep adjustment to $2500. Then I bomb, and don't produce anything. Incubator overheats or something. Next season, people are all buying something else, and spiders are now going for less than low end pastels are. Anyone can pick up a male for $500! I'm screwed, right? I spent $5k and now any schmoe can get the same thing for a tenth of the price! I lost 90% of my "investment." Ok, so now it'll take ten spider babies for the male to pay for himself, to "break even" (let's say 11 or 12 if you include expenses for maintaining him all this time). Ok, I get lucky, I get a dozen spiders when he produces in his third season. I sell them all for $500 and wholesale the normal males. By this time, I've gotten my money out of him. It's taken three years, but the little guy has paid for himself. If he keeps cranking out $500 babies, I'm still making money off of him.

Now, that's assuming he's not breeding female lemon pastels and producing lemons, spiders and sometimes bumblebees. It's also assuming an absurd final price drop. I wouldn't expect spiders to bottom out at $500 any time in the next three or four years. Besides, looking at him as a business and not an investment, he's not too bad a choice. Investment implies that you put some money away and it gains value for you, frequently folks into herps assume a short timeframe, which is bad investing anyway. Business implies that you take your inputs (pythons, time, rodents) and ADD value to them. Every snake he produces has some value, and as long as he's reproductively sound, he'll be cranking out snakes that can contribute to the bottom line. Spiders will remain a key ingredient in future designer morphs, so they'll always be in demand.

I think spiders and lemons are going to be two choice snakes for newer breeders to acquire. Since the bp morph market is a breeder's market, and the only way for such a market to grow is to bring in new breeders, these snakes will both continue to be in demand, and will probably not bottom out below about $1k. The same goes for albinos and ghosts at the moment. It looks like pieds are getting there. Actually, I'd put pastels, ghosts, and albinos on the bottom price rung, which makes them the entry level snakes of choice, followed by pieds and spiders, which are slightly more intermediate, but still within entry level prices for a lot of people. The newer morphs are always going to go around the more established breeders for a while at inflated prices (or seemingly inflated) until supply approaches demand and second teir breeders, the guys with impressive collections who still aren't the "big guys" yet, start producing them in enough numbers for the intermediate and beginning breeders to get them affordably.

What morph you get depends entirely on your business plan, I think. If you want to get in on high dollar morphs early and turn around a faster profit, then that's a viable approach. The main drawbacks are that you can possibly be caught off guard when the market makes a large price adjustment, and that you will have a much smaller market to sell to. You could also go the route of producing for the intermediate and starter breeder market, where there are a lot more buyers available, and simply produce more snakes. Or, you could go straight for the beginner/pet market and produce even larger quantities of snakes to wholesale.

I'm starting off going for the beginner/pet level of market. By pet I don't mean normals, as you'll get killed by imports, but simply lower end morphs that more serious hobbiests will drop some extra money on just to have, but may not have much ambitions to breed as a business. The guys who just want a morph so they produce some animals to trade/sell to get the next morph, and so on, but are doing it more for the sake of hobby than business. I plan to move up to the more intermediate marketplace and participate at that level myseslf at some point, though. Since I don't really like albinos much, I'm initially focusing on pastels and spiders so that I can raise funds for pied groups and so I can produce bumblebees. My reasoning is that you'll move the lower to mid priced morphs much faster since there are a lot more people with $1500 in their pocket than $15,000.

Of course, now you've got me worried about the possibility of genetic defects in the spiders, so I'm off to do more research. Any links would be appreciated.
 
That last post of mine wasn't in reply to Evan, but Evan did get to the point faster. =)
 
You could get a well started male spider for $6000 right now. You have to realize though that mutations have levels of adjustment. For instance, when an animal hits the $2500 price they tend to stay there for awhile. It happened to albino burms, albino balls, albino retics and others. Then you get the $1000 level. They sit here a while. When albino balls hit $1000 market price, they will stay there a long time. Spiders will likely never go much lower than $1000 if they go that low. As they get cheaper people will only breed them to other morphs and there will be less on the market, take hypos as an example. Also, when somebody produces a neat looking new morph that uses a spider as a component the price may rise again. For example, hypo pastels boosted both morphs sales and the hypos price. Super pastels gave a huge shot to pastels. Axanthics were boosted by snows. It all goes in a cycle.
 
Well, if you've got $6k laying around you aren't using... =)

I just got a nice lemon pastel male, and I'm also getting a nice salmon boa this week, so I've got my two studs. Got some adult female balls coming in so I can start acclimating them to breed next season, so all that plus housing for them has blown my budget at the moment. I'll probably look at getting a spider toward the end of the year, and probably ghosts as well. I think the spiders, ghosts, pastels and albinos are going to remain a solid staple for designer morphs for a long time. And I want pieds.

Speaking of pieds: I see mention of albino pieds, and spider pieds a lot, but has anyone made pastel/pieds? I'm thinking a Lemon Pie would look nice, and plan on giving that a go some time.
 
First, let's say that I pick up a male for today's prices of around $10k. (I've seen them from $8k to 12k recently, so I'm just picking a number in between.) Now, let's say that male spiders drop to 5k in 2006.

Like Evan said, spiders have been around for 5-6K if you simply look at the classifieds (males).
Either way, I too LOVE the bumblebees and thats why I got my spider male last season, I could care less if males dropped to 3 grand this season, my slightly higher investment will payoff sooner or later. Not to mention the fact that THIS year I may produce my very first cross.
 
NEWReptiles said:
Like Evan said, spiders have been around for 5-6K if you simply look at the classifieds (males).
Either way, I too LOVE the bumblebees and thats why I got my spider male last season, I could care less if males dropped to 3 grand this season, my slightly higher investment will payoff sooner or later. Not to mention the fact that THIS year I may produce my very first cross.

True, I was just tossing numbers out of my butt to make a point. The price drops don't matter much to me if I get a snake that will breed for several years, and if I can combine it with other morphs to make something as cool as bumblebees. Good luck on making some bumblebees.
 
Although with males you do hear of some freakishly early breeders (I have this theory that dominant type morphs select for that) in general a year older male will produce a year earlier. So when you see an annual price drop you have to ask yourself it it's more than you might expect to produce in a year. At this point I don't see spiders dropping anywhere near enough not to justify buying a year earlier if you can. If you produce even 1 or 2 spiders a year earlier it will pay for the price drop. Of course this assumes you have big females waiting for your spider male.
 
I really wanted to go pied x pastel this season but can't. My male pied wasn't ready. So I went pastel x pastel a couple times. I also think that pastel pieds may just turn out to be the best looking combo with pieds. I think albino and hypo pieds will be dissapointing as they will lose the contrast that makes a pied so remarkable. The pastel on the other hand would at least keep and possibly intensify the contrast as they have such a vibrant coloration. The spider pied may not be all that great either but when you eventually get to bumble bee pieds and super pastel pieds I really think they will be amazing.
 
This is the point with the bp's where I start to get anxious. They are bred and bred again (and again) but 3 or 4 weeks still to go until I turn my temps back up for good. What is going to happne? It's enough to drive you insane some days. I bet Al is at the same point.
 
Man oh man, every year I say that I am going to breed for certain things and that I have no need to label the clutches with specific info as I know what I have bred to what. Sure enough, again this year, I have bred so many different animals in so many different direction that I have no idea what I am going to get.

I have a female hypo bred by pastels and hypos. I have a het hypo female bred by hypos and pastels. I have normals bred by pastels and albinos. And on it goes. I just have no idea what is going to come out of whatever eggs I end up with. It is a mystery.
 
I just have no idea what is going to come out of whatever eggs I end up with. It is a mystery.

Same here, I have a few girls that were bred by 3 different males. I think its adding to the excitement though.
 
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