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What is your idea of "Proven"?

What do you mean when you say or read "Proven"

  • It means s/he has mated and had viable young.

    Votes: 45 97.8%

  • It means s/he was seen mating at least once at some point so I'm sure.

    Votes: 1 2.2%

  • I took it to someone who 'knows his stuff' and he told me for sure.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • I don't know - I never pay attention to that.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    46
M

MR_Jungle_Mist

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I'm just curious to know what you consider "proven". It seems people are using that term kind of loosely lately and would like to know what you think it means. Do you use the term? Do you consider it when someone has that listed on their classified ad?
 
i've always thought it meant that they've been bred and have produce young

anything else is misleading imo...how can they be "proven" breeders if they've never produced offspring?

--liz:)
 
c'mon, people, don't be shy. Just click on the above and let us know what you think. It's a blind poll and won't post your username/login or anything. This is strictly for informational purposes.
 
I have this plane. It's a very nice plane. It's been washed and serviced and painted real nice. I go down to the airport all the time and look at it. Sometimes I even sit in it and pretend I'm flying. I compare it to the other planes at the airport and mine is definately the prettiest. I bet it's the fastest too. And can probably fly the highest. Yeah, I bet it can fly higher than any other plane in that little airport.

Even though I've sat in it often enough, I've never started the engine. I've never had it on the runway. I've never had it in the air.

I think it's time to sell my plane.

Now, since I KNOW it's the prettiest, fastest and highest flying plane out there, I'm going to put that in my ad. I am soooooooooooooo sure of these facts, even though I have NEVER PROVEN them, that I'm going to list them in my ad.

After all, if someone were to actually TRY to PROVE these facts that I have ASSUMED are TRUE, I have NO DOUBT that I would be PROVEN right. I mean come on, just look at that beauty. Don't you think she's the prettiest, fastest and highest flying plane you've ever seen?

Now keep in mind that I have NEVER PROVEN any of my assumptions, but the guy I bought the plane from told me the same thing and even though I NEVER saw him fly it, or even start it for that matter, I believe him.

Anyone want to by the fastest, prettiest, highest flying plane there is?

Hey, if you buy her you could PROVE her out yourself!!!!

The previous bit of creative writing was just that, creative. Much like the trailor that some of you still think I live in, the plane is non-existant. Other than in our imaginations.
 
Muaahahahah!!! I was wondering where the heck you were going with that one! Then I'll go ahead and put you down for "must have had viable young"... :)
 
MR_Jungle_Mist said:
Muaahahahah!!! I was wondering where the heck you were going with that one! Then I'll go ahead and put you down for "must have had viable young"... :)
Click to expand...


Yup, if it ain't got viable youngun's it ain't proven. Period.
 
I consider the term open for debate Wes.
I mean, I have seen a "pair" of snakes, both of which turned out to be female produce perfect looking eggs when courted with the other female and such.
The eggs were just empty.
I have seen an actual pair produce really crappy looking eggs.
I think that anything that laid eggs, viable or not in females is proven, because she has produced, and laid eggs.
Males also can be considered proven after courting, which resulted in eggs, viable or not.
Just my opinion, I'm sure there will be other opinions, as already stated.
 
Well, where I'm at with it is that I believe they are only proven if they've proved to have successfully mated. If they courted and eggs/young were had from it they are proven. If they have not bred at all then they are not really proven. If they courted but nothing came of it they are not yet proven. Let's face it - there has been more than one occasion where (using snakes as an example here) snakes have mated with nothing to show for it. It might be because they were not presented correctly, the female wasn't ready, it just didn't 'take', etc etc.

If you buy a 'proven pair' and you come to find that yes, they courted, mated, and the female passed slugs 4 times in a row. Well....are they proven breeders?

I didn't want to start a little tiff or anthing with this thread. I was just kind of curious as to what people considered proven. I've been seeing some ads lately that just made me question what the seller meant. One ad in particular said they were a proven pair yet were only juvies. I'd always thought it to mean they'd mated and had a viable clutch/litter out of the deal.

Thanks for you responses!
 
If you buy a 'proven pair' and you come to find that yes, they courted, mated, and the female passed slugs 4 times in a row.
Click to expand...
Nope. Nothing viable ever came from it, so calling them "proven" would be a misnomer.
 
This term is even more loosely used in the "furry critter" hobby. Take Mongolian gerbils for instance. They can carry many coat color genes. People will try to sell a proven agouti (color found in wild) pair as carrying colorpoint genes. This means they are saying that this pair will produce 50% colorpoint gerbils, because they have bred them together (more than once is supposed to be the "rule") and that is what they produce.

To me selling a proven mated pair, I mean, not only am I 99% (saying 100% is asking for it) sure on genetics, but this pair will not only breed, but raise the young into adulthood and not eat the young.

Unfortunately, as in the reptile field this word "proven" is often completely untrue. Sometimes you will even be sold a same sex pair!

I know this is the boa discussion board, but I thought maybe some people would be interested to know that this term is just as often misused in other animal hobbies as well, and it irks the heck out of me! (Especially since you are only getting maybe an extra $2 for a proven pair of Mongolian gerbils!!)
 
It's also the same way in birds. If a single female bird lays eggs it does not make her proven.

Proven=Sat eggs, hatched and fed babies.

Should be the same way in reptiles.
Proven=Layed viable eggs or had viable young. Nothing less is/should be acceptable.

Proven means proven breeder. If the young are all born dead or unfertilized eggs are produced or only slugs are produced, then what exactly is proven?
 
I Wondered Also.

I would expect a proven animal to have produced healthy offspring. I think in order to "prove" it one should be able to supply documentation such as charts or photos. Charts are somewhat not proof really, but if it all matches up correctly I think that is the least to expect. Actual pics good enough to identify the animals...and of litters, preferbly giving birth would be ideal for me. I understand that this still leads to errors and snakes don't "go" just because your camera is handy. Also proven breeders does not IMO prove exact lineage. That's another topic completely.

:spinny:
 
Proven

In my opinion, proven means sex followed by viable offspring. If offspring are not viable, then nothing is proven except two horny animals having sex. :dgrin:
 
ruht roh

i jsut realized i cant advertise myself as proven . jsut very energetic and willing . but hey that counts for somethign doesnt it ? shoot ...I better cancel those personal ads then ..... :scatter:
 
Well, I'm glad most people think the way I do. I didn't know if I had a real argument about those listing Proven when they are clearly not. Now I know!
 
You know Steven I've given this some thought and it really comes down to symantics and ethics.

I've got a bitchin' male corn snake. He's even proven.

Every time I breed him the female lays all slugs.

Ain't that sweet?

I guess you REALLY have to be specific when you ask what the pair are proven FOR.
 
" PROVEN " is an expressed term

by one person relating to ( in this case animals ) to another person. It does not mean " indefinite " ! While proven may of been on someone, it doesn't mean it will occur or pass to someone else. To many factors involved. Although the term means well. Having proven breeders of dogs, cats, mammals, parrots, horse and reptiles, and expressed the term of " proven " upon sale of original breeder or offsprings, it doesn't always play out that way. As I voted, proven should mean : bred, viable offsprings, no problems with offsprings, and no reason why they wouldn't breed again. But I wouldn't go as far as " guarantee " anything past that. I guess one could consider blood lines as well. I did on cats, dogs, parrots and horse and a couple of reptiles. But it is much harder to do so with egg layers. You would like good , strong bloodlines to pass on but..................my .02 cents.
 
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