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what kind of boa is this?

First off, I am a little old school, mostly following info gathered by Russo and Crutchfield, so sorry if I came off as "this is how it is". I do see Ronnes point though and agree it is time to re-configure boa taxonomy.

But, let me get this straight, if you caught a boa in the wild and took the info of mid-body, ventral and sub-caudel scale counts, saddle count, color, location and size you would be able to use all of that information, combined, to define what you have? Correct? Or am I talking in circles here? :shrug01:
 
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Nice work everybody! I like this thread! I can tell from a block away BCI vs. BCC. Comes with territory after 'mucking' with em for a couple dozen years.

It's funny, you can put any degree, any amount of schooling... it never equals up to true experience in any field. ;)
 
Tom Pecanic said:
Nice work everybody! I like this thread! I can tell from a block away BCI vs. BCC. Comes with territory after 'mucking' with em for a couple dozen years.

It's funny, you can put any degree, any amount of schooling... it never equals up to true experience in any field. ;)
Click to expand...

What's this?


DSC_1013.jpg




Or this?

DSC_1032.jpg
 
First off, don't call me Dick. It's not my name, nor my nick name.

Second off, what's wrong with testing yourself on your experience? I've got over 35 years keeping Boa, and I was wrong in my assumption of the first one, based solely upon outward phenotype. So go for it. (Although I'm sure you probably read the many threads I've started on both these animals)
 
Well, while he's looking up my older threads to get the answers, I'll get to my point. NOBODY, not even the great Tom Pecanic, can tell with 100% accuracy what a boas lineage is by outward phenotype alone. When they are bred, the offspring inherit genes from both parents. If one gene is dominant to another, then it will express itself. That is a genetic fact.

Either knowing the lineage, or counting scales is the only way to know. And even then, a cross can have the scale count of either parent, or somewhere in between. If the lineage is not a known factor, then outward phenotype, combined with scale counts, is going to get you the closest to an accurate answer as you can get. There are very few exceptions in the Boa world.
 
crotalusadamanteus said:
Either knowing the lineage, or counting scales is the only way to know. And even then, a cross can have the scale count of either parent, or somewhere in between. If the lineage is not a known factor, then outward phenotype, combined with scale counts, is going to get you the closest to an accurate answer as you can get. There are very few exceptions in the Boa world.
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Couldn't of said it better myself. :thumbsup:
 
crotalusadamanteus said:
Either knowing the lineage, or counting scales is the only way to know. And even then, a cross can have the scale count of either parent, or somewhere in between. If the lineage is not a known factor, then outward phenotype, combined with scale counts, is going to get you the closest to an accurate answer as you can get. There are very few exceptions in the Boa world.
Click to expand...

Can you accurately tell a Suriname from a Nicaraguan boa using this method, absolutely. I never said anything against that. The boa in question in this thread is a Colombian, though. Colombians are basically a natural intergrade between BCI and BCC with a significant portion of the country being straight up BCC. My point was that in Colombian boas specifically, their genetic makeup, even in a lot of wild individuals, makes scale counts pretty well pointless. There isn't a line in between countries saying snakes with a certain amount of scales can't cross it. What do you make of snakes with between 79 and 81 scale counts? You know they're out there.
 
Well I wasn't questioning your statement, which isn't as blatant or blanketed as Tom's is. But just to play devils advocate, are you saying you can "look" at a suspected Nic and tell if it's pure Nic and not mixed with an El Salvadorian or Honduran? They all 3 have similarities. Or will you just offer a guess at what it resembles?

I agree the OP pics look a lot like a Colombian, but I wouldn't say any more then that without scale counts. If they keyed out in BCC range, I might go definite Colombian. If they didn't I could offer no more then a guess or assumption. In my example above, MJ has the Colombian characteristics AND keys out BCC. Pretty safe guess she's Colombian. Serendipity though...we KNOW she's a cross, but her scales say she's a BCC as well, like her mom.
 
I'm sorry, Rick, I wasn't really responding to your statement, either, poor use of quotations. I was responding to Jeremy's processing of your statement. I agree with your statement for the most part, just don't think Colombians really fit into the scale counting system.
 
The system based on cladistics is why so many boa's are labeled incorrectly on purpose now. While one may simply view a boa & correctly determine the locality it's still only an educated guess made on specific traits of certain regions. I'm under the impression the only 100% absolute way to positively identify a subspecies would be through testing of the blood. Considering not many of us have that ability we have to accept the system standards in place to determine quality such as scale counting, markings, tones, etc to identify snakes. I'd expect a breeder to & think it would be irresponsible to the whole community for one to use experience alone without any methods to make a determination, especially if they are selling the animals.

Even though my member fears no ruler I know my experience/knowledge on boa's unfortunately doesn't match its magnitude & I'm not trying to start a battle with anyone, only sharing my thoughts on the subject & listening so I can continue learning from all of you guys.
 
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The issue here is everyone is assuming that even wild boas will fit into one category or another. Don't look at it as a set of boxes, where a boa will certainly fit into one exact box. Instead, many mainland boa localities should be looked at more like a spectrum, as they often share borders only defined by human designated geographical lines. The northern border of Colombia goes directly into Panama, wanna bet there are some animals in both countries that look a hell of a lot like a Panamanian/Colombian cross?
 
JCCS said:
The issue here is everyone is assuming that even wild boas will fit into one category or another. Don't look at it as a set of boxes, where a boa will certainly fit into one exact box. Instead, many mainland boa localities should be looked at more like a spectrum, as they often share borders only defined by human designated geographical lines. The northern border of Colombia goes directly into Panama, wanna bet there are some animals in both countries that look a hell of a lot like a Panamanian/Colombian cross?
Click to expand...

I agree 100% there will be animals that visually are similar or share certain traits. I dont think a boa needs to fit perfectly in a specific box & doubt a lot of even captive born boa's today would but like to think some criteria from them boxes are used to classify or determine a label even if not 100% accurate for any animals rather then just someones opinion alone.
 
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