What method do you use to ship?

[Seamus Haley]

I don't personally see the airlines as being all that much safer, with the single exception of the risks inherent in the package being refused.

If Ken comes back and reads this thread again, hopefully he'll have time to type out the situation which occured after he went to Daytona a few years back to pick up stock for his shop and sent it back Delta Dash on the same plane he was traveling on.

There are just as many package mishaps with the airlines as with any other carrier, the only real advantage is the ability to disclose and insure the contents of a package... But a dead animal is still a dead animal. It's also not simply a cost or even convenience issue, not everyone has an airport that they can drive to in any reasonable length of time... An hour or two, that's alright... ten or fourteen hours to the nearest Delta hub which will deal with packages is more than anyone could consider reasonable.

If given a choice about which carrier would make the best one to allow the shipments in their policies, I'd personally be inclined to go with Airborne Express for a few reasons... They keep their vans within a much narrower range of temperature than the FedEx or UPS vans do and they will also pick up packages being sent by individuals who do not hold an account with them, albeit at a slightly increased rate. This would allow those shippers who do produce maybe a clutch or two a year strictly as a hobby and want to sell the offspring to offset their costs a bit to have a valid outlet for doing so without needing to jump through paperwork hoops, wait for approval or pay a prohibitive yearly fee for the service. Although any of the three would be great if they were to allow shipments, this would simply be slightly more convenient than having to go to the nearest UPS hub or FedEx office to drop the package off.

I agree wholeheartedly though that the first shipper to break the restriction and allow snakes to be sent is going to become THE method of shipping harmless reptiles.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I would have to disagree that it is illegal to use any shipper other then airlines, you would have to show me some proof there. As far as I am aware its against COMPANY POLICIES.

Next to the issue of "everyone shipping airlines" and makeing a 25$ cornsnake a 75$ one. ARE YOU SERIOUS.

First you have the mentioned time issues. Then you have cost, I know for a FACT the cheapest way for ME to ship snakes from MY airport is VIA DELTA. The CHEAPEST DELTA SHIPMENT I CAN GET IS ROUGHLY 69 $ plus tax.

So let me get this straight, I should sell corn snakes for 75$ shipped, when it costs me 70 to ship the snake, offer a live arrival health guaruantee for what 3 years????, all for what 5$ for the snake. Not to mention the HUNDREDS of other dealers that are not only WILLING, but ABLE to sell someone the same snake for 50$ shipped, make 25$ on the snake, and their coustomer doesnt have to drive to the airport.

Lets not put all the lazyness off on the sellers. I have had many people refuse to have animals shipped Delta, not only for price, but due to distrust of the service, or just inability to make it to the airport easily to get the animal.

Door to Door shipping is a MUST for everyone in the business if ANYONE gets it. If not, then yes lets all go to the airlines. But untill the field is level one way or the other, it needs fixed.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Seamus Haley]

Mister Carmany, are you certain of that?

I ask because... USPS allows the private shipping of select livestock with no problems and they can't be defined as an airline carrier any more or less than the private shipping companies.

Wouldn't it constitute an illegal monopoly of sorts if the federal laws only allowed the federal carrier to ship a certain type of goods?

 

[midnightline]

the first shipper to break the restriction and allow snakes to be sent is going to become THE method of shipping harmless reptiles.

Indeed. Currently I ship under the radar via FedEx Priority Overnight, but I don't ship enough packages per year to make it worth my time to get an account with anyone, let alone go through the hassle of getting approved by someone like Delta.
Why FedEx? Because there's a FedEx shipping center near me, and it's easy enough to leave work early, drop by there, and send the package out.

I'd prefer to ship in the clear, but working with shipping companies to get special deals just isn't worth my time with the low volume I deal with. If one of the shipping companies had regulations where all I had to do was walk up to the counter and pay the fee, I'd be happy to do so. I'd even be happy to leave the box unsealed for inspection so that they could see the animal(s) were packaged properly, if that were a requirement.

-Kat Hall

 

[sapphirosII]

shipping methods

I have been using Airborne Express/with their permission, I have an account with them.
I am trying to get certified as a shipper with Delta so that if I need to get a reptile to its' destination the same day (as in very cold weather) I will be able to. It takes weeks or months for them to inspect your "product" before they will certify you. I have been waiting a couple of months now. Deb

 

[Mokele]

I figure I should toss my 2c in, but from a different angle.

Personally, I've only ever bought one animal that had to be shipped (I prefer to handle and pick them out myself, but I'm weird like that). It was shipped USPS, got to me fine, all that jazz.

However, I have briefly (and unplesantly) worked for Fed-Ex before, as a package handler and sorter in a satelite hub. If I were shipping anything through Fed-ex, it would be in a box made of plate-metal, not cardboard. Maybe they do something special for live animals, but the boxes that came through the Cincinnati hub were not exactly handled with care. "Don't throw packages"? My ass, the things were airborne more often than if they were shipped via Delta, if you get my drift. Packages on conveyor belts would be crushed, sometimes unrecognizably, when a jam occured. Of course, I personally highly non-plussed at the large buckets of toxic chemicals (Fischer scientific) that came hurtling down the chutes and into the trucks. H2SO4, yum. And I have many memories of fragile packages being punted around.

As I said, maybe live animals are shipped differently, but my point is that just because the management assures you a package will be treated well doesn't mean the actual package handlers will live up to it. Also, given how they treat employees and the lack of a good union like UPS has to prevent that, I won't touch Fed-Ex on ethical grounds. When a place is offering $9/hour hire-on-the-spot jobs and cannot hire people fast enough to replace those that are quitting, you know things are bad.

Henry Astley

 

[Mickey_TLK]

I agree in a perfect worl Airborne would be the way to go.

Up untill my packages were starting to be searched for snakes, and my account was being miss billed, then doubled billed, I was happiest, and felt safest with airborne by far. As mentioned the trucks are more temperature controlled, but also the buildings themselves are more of a temp controlled enviroment then UPS.

I used to work at UPS, and honestly I think its cruel to ship with them (but I do do it sad to say). I think fed ex would be a step up from ups, especially with UPS trying to take over larger and larger volume deals, the little guys and packages will likely be less important.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[sputnik]

AIRLINES ETC

There are just as many package mishaps with the airlines as with any other carrier, the only real advantage is the ability to disclose and insure the contents of a package... But a dead animal is still a dead animal. It's also not simply a cost or even convenience issue, not everyone has an airport that they can drive to in any reasonable length of time... An hour or two, that's alright... ten or fourteen hours to the nearest Delta hub which will deal with packages is more than anyone could consider reasonable.

Like I stated in an earlier post, NO service is perfect!

OBZ

I never said I would put a small value animal at risk, so please don't make false accusations that I would just because you didn't like my post. I ship all my animals with the same care, even if they are just $25 or $1000, they are all cared for in the same way!

My previous post directed towards you, is not attacking your opinion. Just pointing out that it's not always possible to ship airport to airport. It doesn't happen and won't. Sorry if it rubbed you the wrong way, but I don't and won't treat an animal any less according to $$ value

I have received animals from some reputable people on here. By overnight service and I don't believe they put an animal at risk by doing so.

 

[Darin Chappell]

Mark Carmany wrote,

"The problem isn't with the individual shipping companies. The IATA and Federal Government says that live animals can only be shipped via air cargo. It is plain and simply illegal to ship live animals using a ground carrier (ie. UPS, Fedex, Airbourne Express)."

I would REALLY like to see some sort of evidence for that, because such a statement is completely contrary to ever thing I have found to be true through my research. I understand that it is against the company policies of most overnight carriers to accept many live animals, but it is not at all "illegal," which would imply actual codified laws existing on the books.

Before I believe that shipping animals via FedEx, UPS, or Airborne is illegal, I am going to have to see the actual laws such a practice would be violating. Thanks in advance for your help in this area, Mark.

 

[OBZ]

Next to the issue of "everyone shipping airlines" and makeing a 25$ cornsnake a 75$ one. ARE YOU SERIOUS.

alright everyone... its just my poinion, that it is the safest, securest most reliable method out there.

First you have the mentioned time issues. Then you have cost, I know for a FACT the cheapest way for ME to ship snakes from MY airport is VIA DELTA. The CHEAPEST DELTA SHIPMENT I CAN GET IS ROUGHLY 69 $ plus tax.

so ok, the $25 corn should be $84 then, plus tax... again, just my opinon. i believe its in the animals best interest. obviously, im glad im not a cornsnake dealer,.. infact im glad im not a dealer at all. once anyhting becomes a source of income, it gets a bottom line, then you allow things to be compromised.
yes thats the math,.. does it make 'sense'? to me yeah... that $25 corn is just as alive as an albino tiger retic. So should ya not agree with that, based on the financial issues involved in what i think is the best way to ship... well you wont be convincing me, nor am i trying to convince anyone... just putting my honest thought on the mattter out there.

So let me get this straight, I should sell corn snakes for 75$ shipped, when it costs me 70 to ship the snake, offer a live arrival health guaruantee for what 3 years????, all for what 5$ for the snake. Not to mention the HUNDREDS of other dealers that are not only WILLING, but ABLE to sell someone the same snake for 50$ shipped, make 25$ on the snake, and their coustomer doesnt have to drive to the airport.

k, i see your bottle of serious pills is empty... settle down. My viewpoint is not that of a buisness man. I dont work with any animal for possible or any forseable financial gain. its a hobby... a passion, so i feel the need to do everythign the best way i see possible. i dont have any 'competition'. im just a collector... sometimes i sell an animal or two.... usually for a loss, see what a good buisness man i am?

Lets not put all the lazyness off on the sellers. I have had many people refuse to have animals shipped Delta, not only for price, but due to distrust of the service, or just inability to make it to the airport easily to get the animal.

i didnt, i think its laziness on both parts....

Door to Door shipping is a MUST for everyone in the business if ANYONE gets it. If not, then yes lets all go to the airlines. But untill the field is level one way or the other, it needs fixed.

i can agree.... but certain measures would have to be taken by overnight carriers to convince me of a healthy trip for the animal. frankly, they dont give a crap, nor do they have an obligation to give one.... just like you dont have to ship that $25 corn via dash for $69 bucks, they dont have to pay to heat the plane, the truck or pay to train the knucklehead 'thrower' not to kick boxes that say 'fragile'. i just dont see it happening.
for now, the airlines do the best job of shipping live animals i know of... are they perfect, naw... but since we cant teleport our animals yet... its my choice. Not cause it saves me money, just cause it saves me peace of mind.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Allthough I agree UPS and likely Fed Ex, heck Im SURE ALL of the carriers are far rougher with the packages then we would like, I want to point out that its the shippers responsibility to protect the animals against such things.

I did state its nearly animal cruelty to shp UPS, and if you send a animal in a box, and thats about all you do it is. However most people in the industry are well aware of the risks involved with shipping VIA ANY SHIPPER, INCLUDEING AIRLINES, and as such package their animals to protect against any unforseen incidents in shipping.

Also to the statement of useing a "steel box" or whatever the exact quote was if you were to ship Fed EX. If you use a proper box, and styro line it with 1/2" or thicker stryo you would be amazed at just how strong that box becomes.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Sean

Im glad you pointed out that your looking at this from a "non dealers" point of view. In all honesty this thread is directed more towards "dealers" of reptiles then to the average hobbiest.

The thread isnt designed to debate the care given or not given by one shpper over the other as it relates to the animals. Im sure everyone here has their own ideas on how to ship, and who is best to use or not use. As has been pointed out many times, each company has their own flaws.

I think its a bit harsh to say that people shipping via over the counter means dont have the animals best ntrest at heart. I find that to be insulting to say the least. I personally feel shipping is a risky business either way, and you know what it is part of BUSINESS. And as such you do have to take that into consideration when you make descisions.

Personally if I could convice EVERY coustomer I sold to to have EVERY animal I sold shipped Delta I WOULD IN A HEART BEAT. You want to know why, and guess what its a business decision.....Because they offer insurance on live animals.

See the industry is driven by the coustomers not the "dealers". As such its obvious the coustomers demand a cheaper alternative to shipping. Untill you run a business, you honestly dont have much of any valid input on this thread.

Im not trying to be harsh, no do I need to take "overatction pills" or whatever you stated. I am however trying to keep the thread on the track its inteded to be going, and thats to help BUSINESS and BREEDERS be able to ship animals openly. I think this would also help ensure the safety of many of the animals allready being shipped this method, often without the shipper knowing. Thats of more harm to the animals then allowing it knowingly. But then again, thats not what the threads about.

One last personal statement Sean, just so you know I do not take your statements as a personal attack, your more then welcome to your opinion, so I hope you offer me the same respect.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

 

[Mickey_TLK]

customers........lol....yea I know Im an idot.

Mickey Hinkle
The LIzard King Reptiles

 

[OBZ]

absolutley mickey... sorry for the sarcasm... i look at reptile keeping, and the very little 'dealing' i do.... maybe somewhat like you view that excruciatingly complex tattoo you have going.

its something youre doing out of personal passion, not to have done as cheaply, and efficiantly as possible... youre obvioulsy not having it done in a jailhouse with guitar string and india ink... youre going to a professional, trained, compitent tatoo artist im assuming. im assuming he usesthe highest quality, sterilized, equipment he can, and im sure he has a brilliant porfolio of other amazing tatoos....so thats why you chose the guy, cause hes the best possible way to get it done?

i bet you couldve gotten the whole thing done much cheaper... but at what integrity loss?

im well aware it isnt practical to ship green anoles delta dash. so yeah my view is probably a bit skewed from this topic then. maybe im idealist... but hey, if you can manage to make idealism happen, run with it
economics of keeping reptiles is my least concern, and i dont accuse people that ship overnight animal abusers or neglectful..because again, ive done it myself.. i jsut dont think its the best possible method to ship the animals.

and again, ive used fed ex, and been fine... in all honesty ill probably use them again... and until they decide to MAKE PROPER PROVISIONS for live cargo... i will feel im gambling their saftey. Whenever possible, and as often as i can, i will us US air... never had a bad experience.

happing shipping, and i DO hope door to door becomes a LEGAL, RELIABLE, SAFE, AND ECONOMIC option...

cheers

sean mills

 

[ssnake]

shipping

I`ve shipped and recieved with everyone including delta dash and had problems with them all. I was at the airport (30 minutes away) waiting for my albino ball and by the time they got it off the plane and to me (about 3 hours) the snake was a ice cub. I have been using Airborne Express for about 10 yrs and not once did thay say anything about me shipping snakes and my boxes are always labled live harmless reptiles. I`m not going to call them and ask if i can, (i think we know the answer to that one) but i checked my contract and their website and i cannot find anywhere that you cannot ship snakes. I even had my lawyer look over it and he said i`d have a case if the problem should arise. Someone mention the grandfather clause i could be in that, not sure. So my answer to the poll webslave is Airborne although i`m not sure if its with or without permission. But i am willing to do whatever it takes even if it means losing my account with them to get this sh** taken care of.

 

[Darin Chappell]

"and i DO hope door to door becomes a LEGAL, RELIABLE, SAFE, AND ECONOMIC option... "

Again, I am waiting for anyone to show me where it is illegal to ship live animals via overnight, door-todoor delivery services.

Terms have meanings, folks. When we speak in terms of "legalities," we have entered a very precise world indeed. So, if it is illegal to ship in this way, I ask that proof be shown. If there is no proof (which I believe there is none to be found), then we really need to stop using the term "illegal" as has been done here recently.

 

[WebSlave]

I think there are a lot of moot points being argued in this thread.

Like it or not, it will be the BUYING customers who decide what we, as sellers can do. Most buyers do a lot of price comparison when they are in the market for reptiles. The internet has made this childs play to do these days. If they look at your price list and see $50 for a snake and $69 for Delta Dash shipping, then look at Bubba's Bargain Basement Boas and see the same snake for $50, but $35 for overnight delivery to their home doorstep, who do you THINK they are going to buy from? You can argue until you are blue in the face about the reasons for your using Delta Dash, but the ONLY things that is going to matter to most people will be what they are getting for the money they are spending on shipping. Let's see: $69 plus a round trip to the airport, or $35 and they just have to sit at home waiting for the truck to pull up. Well duh.... That's a real tough one.

And no, 90 percent of the people will not care at all whether or not the carrier knows what is in the box or that you are marking the box as being carved wax figurines. All they want to do is to get their animal shipped to them via the cheapest and most convenient method possible. So unless you are offering something completely unique that no one else can provide, YOUR business will suffer greatly over this unfair competitive advantage that your competition will be using. Quite likely, you will eventually be put out of business by it unless you can compensate in some other fashion.

Heck, if I had to order computer supplies and the only way I could get them from my first choice supplier would be to make a trip to the airport, I would darn side try to find a better way to get them. Even if the cost were the same, it's just darned inconvenient to have to run to the airport if there is a better option available.

These shipping problems, inequities, and unfair practices of the shipping companies are causing us untold damage. Not only for the people who are trying to ship now, but also ALL of the people who are not going to even think about getting into this business because they don't want to have these sort of problems when they have their own animals to sell. So yeah, some people would be glad of the reduced competition and probably would like to keep that competitive edge in place when it comes to shipping.

But that is being extremely short sighted. We are talking about the potential to have a logarithmic increase in business as a distinct possibility if these shipping problems just go away. This also means a like kind increase in business for whatever shippers would be ready and willing to fully accept our business and help us to grow this industry without these arbitrary controls placed by shipping restraints hindering our potential.

There may be some short term pain involved for some people, but I think the long term potential of this will make it all worthwhile afterwards.

 

[renreps]

I just hope UPS isn't reading this thread!!

I ship 10 to 30 packages a month. All without their blessing. When using overnight delivery, the transit times are usually under 24 hours. Provided that the animals are packaged correctly, there should be no reason for them not to arrive safely. I had one animal delayed because of 9/11. It was sitting somewhere for 5 days and arrived if great shape. That was the only problem I've had in over 5 years of shipping animals.
I've talked to all of the major carriers with absolutley no luck at all. They are just not interested in dealing with live animals. Especially snakes!!
When dealing with any kind of shipping, there is always the possibility that something can go wrong. That in itself shouldn't be a reason not to ship them. People get killed in car accidents every day, but we all still drive.
As long as they packaged properly, with heat or cold packs, and not shipped in extreme weather conditions, there shouldn't be a problem. Weather forcasts are just a click or two away. I've held animals for over a month, waiting for favorable conditions.
Rick

 

[WebSlave]

Just for your info, here is a link to the tariff that UPS uses as their base operating regulations:

UPS Final Tariff

This is in PDF format, so you will need Adobe Acrobat in order to read it.

 

[Mickey_TLK]

Get out of my head Rich.

Well said, I hope when I grow up Im just like you, only taller with real snakes, not thoose worms you claim are snakes (yes I know I have points coming off for that...lmao)

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles