What's with the price crashing?

[Kaiyudsai]

I'm actually working on some contacts in Japan.... the Asian market is wide open...... They arent afraid to drop big bucks.....

 

[WingedWolf]

Sadly, it actually didn't occur to me that some of these folks may not have the space or means to take care of the hatchlings, and that was why they were dumping them. That just astonishes me. I'm breeding all of my snakes (I am doing this as a business, after all), but I know exactly how many hatchlings I have to house and feed, and I have the means to do it for up to a year if I have to.

My best hope is to wait out these early price crashers, and hope that the new breeders DON'T use their prices as as a starting point for the season. Once all the price crasher babies have been bought up, people will still be shopping.

 

[gsrept]

there is always the buy low sell high if you have the money. takes money to make money.

 

[WingedWolf]

There is that. It's occurred to me before to buy up the seriously underpriced stuff I see around, and resell it higher. But, then, what would I be getting? Could be something wrong with them (if they even really exist at all).

 

[Southern Wolf]

Then ya'd be a flipper.

 

[gsrept]

this is true it happens all the time. i personally would not do it. but that is buisness.

 

[hhmoore]

Then ya'd be a flipper.

And there's lots of them out there - even some of the people that gripe the loudest about it have done it. Besides the war on flippers is over there...

 

[gsrept]

My problem is if i bought them i would not want to sell them, its going to be hard enough to part with the babies i produce this year. love em all

 

[kellysballs]

I think that instead publishing super low low prices to the public the people who want to blow out their babies should just sell them to wholesalers.

 

[WingedWolf]

Very good point, Kelly. There are wholesalers looking to buy up lots of ball python hatchlings every year, including morphs. No reason to sell them direct at wholesale prices when you can get them gone all at once.

 

[WJS Herps]

I really like seeing the different perspectives on this. I'm sure geographically there are different reasons (and some of the same ones) for the massive devaluation (imagined or real) of animals.

I was set up at the Repticon show in Tampa and I didn't see anyone doing a whole lot of business. Of course, it's not a show that really attracts top-end buyers. I know people who did well at Daytona and some that did nothing last year. Personally, just from what I've seen, the show scene seems to be scaling back into more of a swap meet than the days of guys carrying cash home in garbage bags.

I can't speak to Ball Pythons in particular as they've never been my cup of tea, but I know that Daytona was drowning in them last year. I heard numerous people cracking that it was just a giant ball python show.

I think people's interest in animals and other hobbies waxes and wanes. A particular type of antique that sells like wildfire one year could be dead the next. I also think the state of the economy and bad press have done nothing to help the reptile industry. I'd sure like to see a big rebound and I think it will happen, but I don't see too many people plunking down $1,000 + for a snake for a long while to come unless they are truly passionate about the animal.

Just my thoughts...

 

[WingedWolf]

That's the thing, I haven't seen any sign that ball pythons are devalued in general. They did suffer a bigger than usual price drop last year, but it wasn't completely over the top considering what happened to the general economy. And although I didn't produce more than a hundred snakes, I did sell out completely of my hatchlings before I had the first clutch from this season in the incubator--the last female to go had a fully disclosed temperament issue, though she was pretty. So, people are still buying them all.

Also, not everyone is pricing snakes this way--just a few early-bird individuals have them up at unusually low prices.

 

[Cp3_Pythons]

Well I could sit here and play both side's of the fence on this topic.... For the most part I DONT agree with the Price Crashing.

I obtained well all of my animals under market value Does this mean I skipped Quality No Not at all I purchased from people who have been in the Industry for a few years (So I know the chance of them being there if I need Help is greater than normal). That being said I See there are more people breeding BP's NOT MANY MORE THOUGH. I belive with the DIP in the economy last year some people seen The Reptile Industry didnt get hit as hard people were still buying reptile's So they wanted a peice of the action. After seeing whats involved and the time required to care for the animals I seriously doubt we will see them breeding/selling next year. (Rule of Business More than likely in your First year of Business [Business's in general] your going to lose some money) So these people more than likely didn't make back what they were expecting and know its Cash out now and Do it fast.

The flipper part Why not Flip an animal? Personally I've done it Several time's. Is there something wrong about it? Maybe Maybe Not, But who's to judge you becuase you Made a quick 100-1,000$. Its a way to get ahead and put a little cash in your pocket in the process
I mean Larger companies do it all the time Buy up all of the Little guy's overstock and extra's so they can get it a little cheaper and do the mark up.

If the price is dropping as I've seen in some ads before the snake is even hatched or eating It brings natural suspsion about the animal and breeder. Most people will see this and back away (Notice I said MOST)

Who DOEST want a Morph Bp as a Pet? I mean why settle for a normal when you can have an Albino? Dont get me wrong I have a few Normal Bp's Id much rather have a BumbleBee Bp instead though. Thats why most people buy pets somethings thats eyecatching. Expspecially people who are purchasing reptiles in general.

Petsmart & Petco are still selling normals @ 79.99 Yea I ROTFLMAO
Apperantly they didnt know the Price Crashing was going on

(PERSONALY I wouldn't buy a reptile from neither & I DONT recommend it either As the many time's I've been into the Petco & Petsmart their Bp's just look sick as there not thriving right most are having shedding problems its just not good) I have seen the price's drop some on other reptile's/animals although


SCAMMERS.... Alot of them comming out of the wood work I can post a pic of a Peid female sitting on the clutch and even a Clutch of Pieds and tell you Pieds $500 for males $550 for females and never even have a clucth of Pieds
( I WOULD NOT DO THIS IM USING THIS ONLY AS A REFRENCE DO NOT QUOTE ME ) How Copy and paste with a little Picture editing. 30 minutes of work or less and with my fake clutch of 6 all males I made 3k Nice turnaround you think. Thats why I dont care if you have the picture or not Im only going to deal with Individuals I know will be here tommorow to help me if there's a problem. Im sure there's more I can add but its early and I aint had no coffee

IMHO Some morphs will be dropping in value Spiders being one of the few. IMHO I belive we may see Spiders going for as close to 100.
Dominant genes Just dont keep their Value as the Ressive genes do.
Desinger Morph Combo's You just have to have the right Clients to get them sold @ market price

 

[AbsoluteApril]

the people who want to blow out their babies should just sell them to wholesalers.

this is a good point. I'm sure this depends on the species as well, but with hets you only get the price of normals and half the time, the wholesalers/petstores don't want 'more normals'. Also some people probably don't understand just how low the buy prices are at some wholesalers/pet stores so when they find out, it's still a better deal to them (the seller trying to dump animals) to dump them at 50% market price to the end user (just using that % as an example). Sure, they make more than selling to the wholesaler but then they just devalued everyone else's retail sales as well.

Anyways, good discussion, keep it going.

 

[Gloryhound]

I'm just going to throw a log or two on the fire here. No I don't like the big price drops either, but nobody ever told me if I bought Morph X and Morph Y I would be selling babies for thousands of dollars in a year or two.

If you will not buy from someone who has not been around for a couple years and you tell others not to do this as well and if this was my first year breeding and selling you are telling me I should sell at whole sale prices to a flipper, that way I don't hurt the value of your animals. If the new breeder does that though they never get their name out there and thus are forced to continue to sell their animals at whole sale rate.

If I can sell morph X at $300 dollars on kingsnake or $200 whole sale even though others are selling it for $400 on kingsnake I should sacrafice my potential profit and not start working on a client base, getting references, and maybe even get a good guy post on the BIO all to protect the value of yours and others animals.

Now I don't have a business degree, but my math skills and basic understanding of business are saying not to go the wholesale route. Also if we live in a true supply and demand economy, someone selling an animal that much lower than what others believe the market to be, are not hurting the value of your animal. Then again if the supply of lower price animals keep me or you from selling, maybe supply and demand is working!

Ultimately I think a lot of the large price cuts are due to the other thing being talked about and that is scammers. Scammers have destroyed trust in the reptile industry. New names don't have a reputation to sell with their animals, so they have to use price to draw in customers early on and gain that trust.

 

[WingedWolf]

Actually, what pet stores don't want a whole lot of is ball python morphs. John Q Public has no understanding of why a ball morph would be worth more than a normal, and doesn't care to pay the extra. So, only a few morphs ever turn up in pet stores--and they are generally low-end morphs.

Pet stores want normals. They want lots of normals. They sell lots of normals. I never worry about selling my normals where I am, because if they don't sell directly, the few good pet stores around here will buy them.

I personally don't have an issue buying from an up-and-coming breeder, as long as they have a 'clean record', and nothing looks fishy. I wouldn't be plunking down 10 grand with them over the internet...but then, if they're new, they probably don't have anything worth that much anyhow.

Very low prices from a new breeder actually look fishy to me. It's one thing to come in on the low end of the market--it's another to come in WAY under market.

 

[hhmoore]

I've purchased from newer people before...and, probably more often than not, been somewhat disappointed. Unfortunately, it can be difficult to know who's new vs who's new to you. I don't participate on a bunch of forums - I don't have the time, or desire. While my name is recognized on this site, when I advertise on KS I'm just another face in the crowd to most shoppers. Because of some bad transactions last year - I will no longer deal with people I don't know, unless they are recommended by people I trust...internet connections won't cut it without SOLID references. The only exception to that, for me, is if I can examine the animal in person and take it with me.

Some of the pricing issue IS supply and demand...but, under ordinary circumstances, (IMO) that wouldn't result in the massive reductions that have been happening. That is due to the people. Now, I believe that people can price their animals however they want...but that doesn't mean I have to agree with their strategies. Where I see it being a problem is that people are slashing prices before they even try to sell, and that sets off a sort of chain reaction. Joe Newguy looks at what people are selling (fill in the blank) for, decides he doesn't want to get stuck with the 5 he has, and prices his at 25% less to move them quickly. Pete Downthestreet checks ads and sees Joe's prices, and knocks another 10% off when he posts his own ad. Jenny Fromtheblock has a couple to sell, so she undercuts Pete....then T. Otalnewb comes along and puts his up at the same price. A week later, T. Otalnewb still has his (_______), so he drops the price...and does so weekly until they sell.
Why is that a problem?
Because I said so...
Well, actually, it's because of the response it instills in potential buyers. Too many people don't go out and buy these days, and the problem isn't just the economy. Sellers have trained buyers to wait, by showing them that all they have to do is sit on their wallets for a little while and better prices will come. The other thing that they have learned is that they can get away with making ridiculously low offers...it might create some ill feelings along the way but, eventually, somebody will jump at the chance to get rid of their (______).

Don't get me wrong - I think its great that more and more people are interested in reptiles...but, as I've said for years now, I think that the online world leads people to start breeding them way too soon. Breeding used to be the culmination of years of interest and learning. People had good experience with what they were breeding, and many (if not most) had experienced some bumps along the way that helped them deal with the offspring they produce. Today, lots of people jump into breeding within a year of getting their first snake. How many times do we see "breeders" posting questions about basic husbandry issues, or feeding problems? Sure, they read a bunch of stuff online, and can spout off caresheet requirements...but some of them are clueless. How many new-ish breeders overproduce, just because they have animals available to breed? I just don't think people should be in such a rush to start breeding their animals - but that is my personal opinion, and I don't have any unrealistic expectations about it catching on.

 

[gsrept]

Harald i totally agree with you. well put

 

[AbsoluteApril]

I must spread some karma around before giving it to Harald again...
darn

Sellers have trained buyers to wait, by showing them that all they have to do is sit on their wallets for a little while and better prices will come. The other thing that they have learned is that they can get away with making ridiculously low offers...

two very good points here! well heck, the entire post was good.

I'm just going to ramble here and throw up a train of thought, looking for others opinions or ideas on these subjects. Using as an example, albino and het boas; albinos started dropping pretty darn fast after about 2000, about $200 a year every year... now they are what I would consider pretty cheap (~$300) and I see hets being sold in pairs for ridiculous low prices ($150 shipped or lower), cheaper than buying a normal from a pet store. So what do you do? Do you hold prices at a steady level and hope others do the same? Keep lowering until they've all gone the way of the corn snake (sorry corn snakes! but $30 snows/corns are "less expensive morphs"). How do you stop the tide? Should there even be a base line or just all drop as low as they go?

I like the idea of keeping prices up, not speaking as just (an occasional) breeder but for the simple fact that these are exotic pets and their care, upkeep and caging requirements are quite costly.
(of course fish are somewhat cheap as well but that's a whole other subject)

 

[garweft]

I guess that's the good thing about breeding corns and other colubrids. It doesn't matter if you drop prices since nobody is going to buy them anyway...

I'd rather have a $200 corn on my table that won't sell, than a price dropped $50 corn that won't sell....