What's with the price crashing?

[hhmoore]

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

There may have been a time when it was as simple as that...but I don't believe that it is necessarily the case now. Sorry, but I'm just not a proponent of the drop the price til it sells technique.

 

[Gloryhound]

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

There may have been a time when it was as simple as that...but I don't believe that it is necessarily the case now. Sorry, but I'm just not a proponent of the drop the price til it sells technique.

Now days you have to take into consideration the majority of the people buying are looking based on price making what Paul says for them true, but Mr. Moore thinks a lot like me and a selective crowd that is willing to pay well above market to get a top notch animal. I do have to say though that more people talk this game than actually play it.

Also a sellers price exists. I just hatched out a Lemon queen bee clutch and ended up with 0.1 Lemon Pastel, 0.1 spider, 0.1 Lemon Bee, and 0.2 Queen bees. You can bet I am keeping one of the Lemon Queen Bees. We have a helper that has agreed to indentured servitude one day a week for the year to get the other Queen, the spider was sold before it was completely out of the egg, the lemon pastel is an awesome looking pastel that we want to hold back to see the difference between it and our blond line as adults. The Lemon bee is what I believe is a high quality bee, but you have to sell something once in a while. She will probably be listed for sale at a later date, but she isn't going to be sold off as one of these $400 to $450 super dirty bees that have a pastel in them that probably by its self doesn't look much brighter than a normal. No, once she has 3 meals, she will be on the expensive side of bees and if she doesn't sell my heart will not be broken.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

if they don't sell for a price, during a time period you're ok with, they weren't worth that price...

I disagree with this as well...

The price drops witnessed that last few years are due to people mass-breeding and not being able to handle holding onto animals until they sell for a reasonable price...Instead wanting instant gratification of cash in hand and dropping public prices to wholesale prices...

 

[KelliH]

I've been heavy in the leopard gecko market for more than 12 years and it's the worst it's ever been right now. It's mostly a case of supply and demand (too many people breeding leopard geckos); mix that with a crappy economy and you get we are dealing with now. I don't see it getting much better, ever.

 

[paulWTAMU]

Who decides what something is worth though? I can claim a normal ball or leo is worth 500 dollars because it's just that awesome, but the market as a whole will laugh at me. Just because you as a seller feels an animal is "worth" X amount doesn't make it so.

The price drops witnessed that last few years are due to people mass-breeding and not being able to handle holding onto animals until they sell for a reasonable price

2 things: I agree with that statement. Too many people seem to be breeding with the attitude that they HAVE TO SELL RIGHTNOWOMG! And lots more people are breeding. This leads to a glut of supply--and let's face it, the average kid buying a ball or king doesn't really care too much about if it's a really pretty one or not. So if he's got 10,000 to choose from...he'll probably go on price, service, location. That's as true of morphs as regulars; how many albino balls were bred last year do you think? Or spiders? Or Pastaves, Bumblebees, etc? I mean hell, bumblebees are a double codom. You can get them 1st generation. Demand isn't increasing as fast as supply. Hence price dropping. Yeah I'll pay a bit more for really nice animals but if you want me to pay double going market rate...or even 50% above...probably not happening.

What I see as the downward pressure on prices:
Overbreeding (more some species than others). How many thousands of ball pythons and boas and leos and beardies were bred last year? Even basic morphs and basic combos.

Bad economy: if I don't have the money, I can't spend it. Period. I don't have 5,000 right now, so I'm not buying any 5,000 dollar snakes. No matter how good a deal that is.

Oversaturation of morphs (in some species). how many ball and boa morphs are there? How many choices do I have if I just want a neat looking ball? If there's umpteen dozen morphs (and god knows how many combos) that may decrease what morphs sell for.

 

[The BoidSmith]

The other thing to consider is those that do this as their main source of income vs. those that do it for fun and have a "real job" elsewhere. Their reptile endeavor is then subsidized by their real job, and like with any subsidy they can withstand lower market values without a need to drop their prices.

 

[hhmoore]

Paul,
I am absolutely in agreement about perceived values.
Here's an example of the situation I was talking about...
Let's say I breed a pair of snakes, and get a litter of 20+ babies. done that They're pretty nice looking, and have the potential to be homozygous for their color/pattern morph; so I review the current pricing, and price them accordingly - with the average ones being right in the competitive mix, and the best ones being priced higher (say at, or slightly above, the the advertised pricing for "comparable" specimens). done that, too
My ad is up, and I see somebody post an ad for $10 less than my cheap ones (these aren't expensive animals here)....what are you going to do - happens all the time. A couple days later, that same person drops his price $15. A week later, another person jumps into the mix at just a couple dollars lower; then the first guy redoes his ad to include shipping in his price. I pull my ads, because I'm clearly not going to sell my animals in that environment, but the competition continues. A couple months later, there are only a few people advertising these snakes - and I'm confident that mine are better than most of what I'm seeing. Prices seem to have settled at around $25 less than where I had started my cheap stuff (but, frankly, those "ugly ducklings" have blossomed, so I still think they're worth the original price)...but there doesn't seem to be much acceptance of a tiered pricing scheme. I can accept that perhaps my pricing on the better quality (probable homozygous) snakes was a bit optimistic; but current trends seem to indicate that they are worth no more than visual hets, and I disagree with that.
At this point, I'm in a no win situation. I can practically give away great snakes, and contribute the problem...or I can say screw it and not put them back on the market, knowing full well that the prices are not likely to rebound (especially with spring babies right around the corner, and the whole cycle about to repeat itself). Odds are that as they mature, and the color comes in, I will get a better price; but that will obviously be offset by maintenance costs. I don't HAVE to sell anything. I am not reliant on these sales to pay my mortgage or put food on my table. I have space to accommodate these babies for at least two years, even factoring in other animals I will breed during that period.

I am, perhaps, one of the people that both confirms and denies your statement because my acceptable period of time is not as limited as many people's. Less than half of the litter I've been referring to would sell within a month at my desired prices; so one could argue that they are not worth my price...but I am confident that they are worth more than the market trend, and that discerning buyers will recognize that as the snakes mature a bit. (The whole thing would be pretty easy if I was willling to sell off the cream of the crop right off the bat, compromise on the mid range, then figure out what to do with the lower end animals later - but THIS year, I wasn't willing to do that)

 

[paulWTAMU]

but there doesn't seem to be much acceptance of a tiered pricing scheme.

I've noticed this in the hobby as a whole and it kind of saddens me.


I would say in your case, if you're willing to wait then no they haven't been to be worth less than your asking; you're willing to hold on to them rather than lower your price so they're still worth it to you...even they're not to buyers. But if you have to move them in 3 or 4 weeks...then yeah, they're only worth what you can get people to pay.

 

[hhmoore]

I'm one of those guys that breeds because I enjoy dealing with the babies, and watching them mature. When the time comes to sell them, they'll go....they always do.
It's kind of funny, in a way - some species I routinely keep around for 6-12 months before I even think about advertising them; some species and morphs I'm less enamoured with, I push out the door as soon as I can manage it. (With the group above, I wasn't all that happy with the appearance of about 1/3 of the babies - that's how they came to be advertised in the first place. I'm really glad that I pulled the ad, when I did, though, because I'm really enjoying watching them develop. The way their colors are developing is pretty impressive, and I can't deny a that a few of them have really surprised me. Too bad their appearance varies so much over the course of a day)


(had to edit to correct one statement: sometimes I do start selling even my favorite species more quickly, despite my enjoyment...the babies just come at a time when I am stretched to my limits, so I have to reduce the workload; and at times it is strictly a business decision - ie feeding 50-100 baby bullsnakes for 6 months just isn't worthwhile from a cost perspective, and its not like they change in appearance much as they grow.)

 

[greg19]

hi'Kellih,I have'nt been in the lizard buiss in a while.I used to do water dragons and green and brown basalisk beardies etc.The problem I had was everyone wanted top notch reptiles for nothing.Their were times I had to sell for nothing because no one wanted to spend alot of money,and this was 10 years ago.Now with the problems in the economy I could'nt imagin what it feels like.I guess like kids in school going thrue fads reptiles go thrue popularity contests,up one day down the next,but here lately it seems all are going down,G' lets hope not.the balls im working with could produce a new morph like the world of reptiles has never seen.Thats all I need is for everything to come crashing down.

 

[scorpy]

I suspect there was a reptile bubble brewing and it finally burst. Back then everyone was willing to pay a higher price because they think it was an investment. You can see that in ads, that many sellers were trying to sell their snakes as an investment product by telling you that you can breed this or morph that, so the mark up is justified.

So what has happened is that since everybody was buying as "investment" everyone became a breeder. And at one point everyone is trying to produce the next holy grail but suddenly everyone is making the same product. And then they eventually realized this investment price is not sustainable since everyone already has a ton of collection themselves trying to breed their own.

The only way to sustain the price of this hobby is to neuter/spay all reptiles like in the dog trade so the products don't overpopulate/oversaturate.

 

[hhmoore]

There's more to it that that. It wasn't too long ago that people just kept (or hoarded, lol) reptiles. Every Joe, Mike, and Suzy wasn't jumping right into breeding; and the ones that did breed usually had several years of experience under their belts. They also started on a smaller scale. More recently, it seems that breeding is some rite of passage; and people can't wait to get through that barrier. I understand that there will always be new names coming on the scene, and a new name doesn't mean an inexperienced person....but, when you can track the progression from new snake owner to 1st time breeder with 20+ snakes over the course of 10-18 months; it's pretty obvious. Heck, I've seen total newbs jump in with both feet and produce more babies in their first season than I do - good for them, on one level (if that's what they really want to do)...but those are very often the people that are undercutting everybody to get rid of their animals. Luckily, many of those are the proverbial flash in the pan...but they do their damage, and sell off to the next person in line.

I know I'm not the only person that limits my production according to their perception of what they can take care of, and what they'll be able to sell; so the concepts can't be that difficult.

 

[Gloryhound]

For ball pythons I know currently a solution to the price crashing exists, but we as a hobby are not going to like it. And the second reason I don't like it is it involves that dirty three letter word, "TAX". Levy a tax on imported wild caught or captive hatched ball pythons of somewhere in the neighborhood of $100 to $200 dollars each animal. Pet stores will be buying up the normals breeders make left and right and the low end morphs as well causing the value of captive collections to increase significantly.

Not that I really want to see them do that, but it is a solution I think a lot of ball python breeders as well as other animals would like to see.

 

[hhmoore]

I don't think that would have the widespread benefit you think, as a relatively small percentage of pet stores would suddenly be buying from local breeders.

Obviously, there are strong arguments in favor of reducing the importation of WC and CH babies....but taxation or any other form of government regulation is going to be a tough sell to hobbyists because we're already battling against forces trying to limit our options. Start a tax on imported WC and CH BPs, and it will quickly become imported WC anything; then, it will include imported CB stock....and within a few years they'll be looking at domestic sales. Of course, that is assuming we don't lose on other fronts first.

 

[paulWTAMU]

, and it will quickly become imported WC anything

if i thought it would stop at imported anything I'd be all for it. I don't favor a total ban but the trade in cheap disposable pets horrifies me. 20 for an ig or sav? *shudder*

 

[WebSlave]

I've been heavy in the leopard gecko market for more than 12 years and it's the worst it's ever been right now. It's mostly a case of supply and demand (too many people breeding leopard geckos); mix that with a crappy economy and you get we are dealing with now. I don't see it getting much better, ever.

It was quite a while back when we saw baby leopard geckos selling for $3 each. It's worse than that now? If so, OUCH!

Back then when we saw the prices drop that much, Connie just decided to stop breeding her leopard geckos and basically keep them for pets. She kept some of the colonies together and we did get a few babies each year, but it was rarely more than two dozen, which mostly got sold to local pet shops. Of course she would keep a few special babies each year, but she kept them in separate cages and never set up new colonies. She just enjoyed having them around as pets and didn't feel the need to breed them to try to make money off of the offspring. Just on the cricket bill alone, we were losing money on the leopard gecko colony every year, but what the heck. She just loved the heck out of those critters, so that made it worthwhile.

When we retired from the business, I told her she could still keep her geckos if she wanted to, as I know she was REALLY attached to them. This is no exaggeration when I say that she had most of them puppy dog tame. It was hard on her, but she did decide to give them all up. And I know she misses them often. But we have been planning on doing some travelling during retirement, and it would be tough trying to find someone to take care of them while we were gone. We have a healthy population of green anoles around here and she talks to them all, so I know she is trying to use them as sort of replacements for her geckos.

Seriously, you CAN keep reptiles as pets without feeling that you MUST breed them. People do that with cats and dogs all of the time. So unless you really have a good solid reason to breed them, then don't.

 

[Wraith]

There may have been a time when it was as simple as that...but I don't believe that it is necessarily the case now. Sorry, but I'm just not a proponent of the drop the price til it sells technique.

Exactly. There is no reason to drop a price if it doesn't sell right this minute (or even this week, etc.). People complain about others crashing the market but then if they are also participating in the price drops then they are contributing to the problem just as much as the low ballers are. It's one thing to drop the price if something doesn't sell in 4-6 months, but to drop the price after only a couple of days is ridiculous and only hurts everyone.

My partner threw a fit over prices I set on some of our animals last year.. swore we'd NEVER sell them if we priced them too high compared to other people especially during a recession like this. I felt we had quality animals with good genes and I fairly priced them as such and I stuck to my guns on that issue.

I refused to let my partner drop our prices on our animals simply because "everyone else" wanted to quickly drop prices on their animals "to make a quick sale". I refused to be insulted by the cheap low ballers telling us they'd buy our animals if only we'd drop our prices by 30-40% in order to match the prices of similar animals sold by others whose genes were not comparable to the genes of our animals! Did we lose some "early sales" because of that.. yes. But in the end we GOT the prices we wanted and our customers were happy with what they got.

 

[scorpy]

Tax is not a solution for WC balls and morph balls aren't even competing in the same market. One is normal goods and one is luxury goods.

 

[The BoidSmith]

Tax is not a solution for WC balls and morph balls aren't even competing in the same market. One is normal goods and one is luxury goods.

It seems that with today's job market and wages, maintaining any pet will soon become a luxury.

 

[paulWTAMU]

sorry scorpy but pretty much any pet is a "luxury good." One may be a lower end luxury (i.e. nonessential, non utilitarian) good but they are all luxuries. It's like saying Hershey's isn't a luxury but imported belgium chocolate is.

And I'm all for pretty much anything that removes WC anythings from being super cheap disposable commodities. I do want WC animals available, I just hate seeing WC/farmed igs for sale for 20-30 bucks at Petco or the corner petstore knowing 9 out 10 or better are going to be maltreated and die horribly. And the morph breedings probably are having an impact on the normal market; if nothing else (particularly with balls) there's a lot of codom morphs so you'll wind up with visuals het nothing in a clutch.

The only real solution is to get people to stop thinking they need to breed just for kicks but that'll be hard/impossible. I mean hell, breeding your animals is FUN and rewarding. I still remember the 1st time I bred pictus geckos I never even sold the offspring.

Part of that'll come when people that just have them as pets aren't looked down on; I think there's definitely an attitude in the hobby that people that have several snakes as pets but don't breed aren't as serious or as good as keepers as people that breed. It seems to be viewed as a sort of rite of passage. And to some extent I understand that--you've demonstrated husbandry sufficient to allow them fulfuill their whole life cycle after all, but I think we're also shooting ourselves in the foot long term and increasing the supply to the point where it will drag prices down to laughable levels. In some species it's happened already; what do normal or albino corn snakes sell for wholesale now? 3-5 bucks? I mean they retail for like 15 at LLL...crap, there's more and more reptile rescues springing up and when you look at what's available in them it isn't things like retics and burms even; it's balls, boas, corns, kings, igs; 4 of those are CBB in vast numbers...