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When to cull, need advice please

Congrats, Craig!! Glad to hear that she's eating for you. Other than the occasional fast, she should be good to go now!
 
good news Craig! You know seeing a cinnamon doesn't surprise me. Not sure if it is just me but I notice that cinnies are a little slower eaters, just as pastels are a little nippier. One of my best feeding snakes that I had to assist feed a handful of times was a cinny. Hopefully she takes off now for you.
 
I'd go with the "never cull" a slow eater. I haven't had any go past 5-6 assist feeds before they start to turn round. If I ever felt the need to stop assist feeding (and I haven't yet) I would give them to someone else to keep trying. There are plenty of us out there who would glady do it.
 
stevek said:
If I ever felt the need to stop assist feeding (and I haven't yet) I would give them to someone else to keep trying. There are plenty of us out there who would glady do it.
Click to expand...

But there are some snakes that will simply be non-feeders...what kind of life are you providing a snake that will not eat on its own? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.
 
I'm referring to assist feed not force feed. I have never had to deal with a force feed situation. Personally, I would still try to find another person willing to keep trying, rather than make that call myself.
 
But who are we to say some snakes will never eat on their own? Here's a question I'd like to add. What is the longest time anyone has assist fed? Has any one assist fed a BP thesnakes entire life?
 
stevek said:
I'd go with the "never cull" a slow eater. I haven't had any go past 5-6 assist feeds before they start to turn round. If I ever felt the need to stop assist feeding (and I haven't yet) I would give them to someone else to keep trying. There are plenty of us out there who would glady do it.
Click to expand...

So you haven't been in a situation where you have had to assist feed longer, congrats. I really hope it stays that way for you. As much as I love my snakes and want to see them thrive that may not always be possible. Four plus months with no feeding response is not typical and not something I am willing to allow to go on longer.

I was contacted by someone looking to take the snake off my hands. There is no way will I ever allow a problem snake to leave the collection like that. It is my responsibility to do the right thing for that animal. In this case if she continues to do well she will most likely be given to a local child as a pet for free, where she will not be bred.

RobNJ said:
But there are some snakes that will simply be non-feeders...what kind of life are you providing a snake that will not eat on its own? There has to be a line drawn somewhere.
Click to expand...

:iagree:
 
Is there anything wrong in breeding an assist fed BP? I don't think it's genetic. And has anyone had to assist feed a BP long enough so it was of breedable size?
 
stevek said:
Is there anything wrong in breeding an assist fed BP? I don't think it's genetic. And has anyone had to assist feed a BP long enough so it was of breedable size?
Click to expand...

The idea behind breeding(in a perfect world) is to breed selectively. If you have a snake that needs to be assist fed for a prolonged period of time, that snake is perhaps not a good candidate to breed healthy, strong snakes in the future. In the wild, snakes that won't eat will not survive and therefore will not breed, and that is what keeps ball pythons a thriving species. In captivity, a snake that will not eat can be assist fed until they finally do start feeding, and they may even become a fine feeder, but does not make them a good candidate as a breeder...by breeding weaker snakes, you're diluting the gene pool.

I've never had to cull to date, but I've decided that should any snake I breed go 4 assists and not feed on their own after, they'll be put down. It's not fair to the snake and not fair to the hobby/industry to be so persistent until they finally get the hang of feeding.
 
RobNJ said:
The idea behind breeding(in a perfect world) is to breed selectively. If you have a snake that needs to be assist fed for a prolonged period of time, that snake is perhaps not a good candidate to breed healthy, strong snakes in the future. In the wild, snakes that won't eat will not survive and therefore will not breed, and that is what keeps ball pythons a thriving species. In captivity, a snake that will not eat can be assist fed until they finally do start feeding, and they may even become a fine feeder, but does not make them a good candidate as a breeder...by breeding weaker snakes, you're diluting the gene pool.

I've never had to cull to date, but I've decided that should any snake I breed go 4 assists and not feed on their own after, they'll be put down. It's not fair to the snake and not fair to the hobby/industry to be so persistent until they finally get the hang of feeding.
Click to expand...

I hope I did the quote thing right. Of course we all want to breeding strong healthy snakes and do what we can to keep the gene pool healthy. BUT who's to say an assist fed snake is not healthy once it starts to eat on his own? Is a BP that started to eat on his own after 6 assist feeds any less healthy than a BP that started to eat after 5 assist feeds. Any less healthy than a bp that was never assist fed? Why is a snake that was assist fed as a baby not a good candidate for breeding?
 
stevek said:
Why is a snake that was assist fed as a baby not a good candidate for breeding?
Click to expand...

Because in the wild, the strong survive. We are defying Darwinism by letting the weak reproduce. At least that's why I think they aren't a good candidate.
 
We are defying Darwinism by producing Morphs. A premature baby (human) would normally die on his/her own. They will mature to be perfectly healthy adults and produce 100% healthy offspring.
 
Focal said:
Because in the wild, the strong survive. We are defying Darwinism by letting the weak reproduce. At least that's why I think they aren't a good candidate.
Click to expand...

:iagree:

And, if you want to keep a snake on life support until it decides to eat on its own, that's up to you. I for one would not be comfortable putting my name on an ad for a snake that said, "slow starter, was assist fed 6(or 8, or 10, or 15) times, but should make a perfectly fine breeder."

A few assists, fine, but doing it until they take food on their own regardless of how long is either selfish or you're just not decisive enough to do what's right by the animal and/or potential future owners...both negatives for this hobby. And I can see the other side, the so-called moral dilemma, but there's no way to ensure where that snake will end up or that it will in fact be kept in a pet only home.
 
stevek said:
We are defying Darwinism by producing Morphs. A premature baby (human) would normally die on his/her own. They will mature to be perfectly healthy adults and produce 100% healthy offspring.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of humans that should not be reproducing as well.
 
Focal said:
Because in the wild, the strong survive. We are defying Darwinism by letting the weak reproduce. At least that's why I think they aren't a good candidate.
Click to expand...

:iagree:

I don't breed balls but when I breed boas, in addition to color/pattern, what helps me pick my keepers for future breeding is how strong their feeding response is. It's up to us as breeders to pick the best, strongest stock to propagate the species in captivity since 'natural selection' doesn't come into play.

edit to add:
RobNJ said:
There are plenty of humans that should not be reproducing as well.
Click to expand...

haha yeah I agree completely but was worried how it might look with the way I wrote it up... you said it much simpler than I did
 
Back when I use to browse craigslists for snakes, I came across a pastel and inquired about the price on her. She was a fair deal and come to find out was het for albino. I sent him an email asking when we could meet up and while I was waiting for a response, I went back to craigslist to browse some more. I found a new ad burning the seller of this snake from the actual breeder. Come to find out, the seller was over this breeders house the night before and was offered a free pastel female because it had been X amount of days and would not eat. This person was told by the breeder that they could have it if they wanted to work with it under the condition that they kept it, but instead listed it for sale the very next day. I emailed the breeder and found all this out ... the seller was unethical and a liar. Even the "het albino" part was a lie.

This is the reason why I would never give a non-feeder away. To many people are fly-by-night and just flat out shady in this hobby. Unfortunate but true.
 
Are you saying that a person who was a premature baby should not be breeding?

I can agree with keeping deformed snakes out of the gene pool, absolutely, but again where do we play GOD and decide if 5 assist feeds is too much? and yes, any snake I did sell would be disclosed as being assist fed, even it it was only a single time.
 
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