Whose to blame for sexing mistakes?

[The BoidSmith]

This is something that has been bothering for a while. In some TOS the buyer has a period of time to determine the sex of an animal he bought for the guarantee to be in effect. Who is the one that needs to know to accurately sex the animal, the seller or the buyer.

Let's assume I don't know how to sex. As a buyer, am I supposed to line up a proficient person to sex my animal upon arrival? I paid more already because the animal was advertised as female for example. Am I supposed to go through the trouble and maybe the expense of having to verify if the seller knows how to sex?

In my opinion the seller should be held responsible to ensuring that what he advertises was what it was, regardless of the time elapsed. Furthermore, if I was sold a male instead, raised it to maturity, and provided both parties can recognize the same animal a year down the road, I still believe the guarantee should be in effect.

Best regards.

 

[dwedeking]

The seller makes his TOS to cover the length of time that they wished to be held responsible for sale. As a buyer you need to read the seller's TOS and figure out whether that TOS is acceptable to you. There is a level of risk for both the buyer and seller in any transaction. The TOS sets the levels which are acceptable to both parties.

So as a buyer that wants a life time guarantee on the animal's sex, ask for it in writing or find a seller that has that as a standard stipulation of the deal. If all (or large portion) of buyers demand certain conditions then the market will adapt to handle that demand.

I have an issue with the buyer deciding after the fact what a seller's TOS should be. I also have an issue with buyers that don't even look until after the purchase.

 

[The BoidSmith]

So as a buyer that wants a life time guarantee on the animal's sex, ask for it in writing or find a seller that has that as a standard stipulation of the deal.

Daniel,

I understand what you are saying but now that you are into ball pythons let's use them as an example.

A dealer has a 100% hetero for baby albino female for $800. You know males go for $250 but you pay the premium because you need a female. Let's assume you don't know how to sex a snake (as probably the majority of herp keepers).

One month later a friend helps you out and determines the "she" is a "he". You contact the seller and he says you had one week to determine the sex. He made the initial "mistake" in determining the sex but it is you that are now stuck with a $800 male. Who of the two is at fault. The seller for not knowing how to properly sex an animal or the buyer for having trusted the seller and the original ad?

Bear in mind this is just an opinion. Wouldn't you agree that a person that is in the business of selling animals should be responsible for what they sell no matter what? A health issue is a different thing, probably 24-48 h guarantee is more than plenty.

But should a sexing mistake that was clearly the sellers fault be transfered to the buyer? He is puting a time limit in his TOS so the buyer can double check if the seller's sexing skills are up to par? Doesn't that sound odd?

Regards.

 

[Clay Davenport]

The fact is mistakes do happen occasionally when sexing snakes. This is particularly true of some species more than others. Given enough time, everyone will at some point missex a snake. The more you produce, the higher this possibility is.
It's not necessarily a matter of not knowing how to do it properly, mistakes happen. Some species have overlapping scale counts on the probe depth. Sometimes it's a matter of accidentally putting the wrong label on a cup, not hard to do when you're caring for 100 hatchlings.

I believe it is unrealistic for a buyer to expect a lifetime guarantee of the correct sex. Frankly, if you are unable to sex a snake nor do you have anyone handy who can, I'm not so sure you should be undertaking a breeding project in the first place. What do you expect to do with the hatchlings, just sell them as unsexed? (I use "you" in the general sense, not directed at you personally Alvaro.)
Breeding reptiles isn't particularly difficult for most people. This results in every Tom Dick and Harry who keeps a pair of something to decide they'll breed them, often without bothering with the related necessary knowledge. I'm not going to be held responsible indefinately for the lack of initiative on the part of the wannabe breeder who makes no effort to acquire a means of sexing his snakes.

The problem I have is this. Say a buyer takes a snake and never bothers to sex it. Two years pass and due to lack of breeding activity, he finally locates someone to sex the animal and they determine it to be the opposite sex from what they purchased.
What is to happen now? The buyer is obviously not pleased, he has wasted two years on his breeding project.
The seller cannot be expected to replace the animal with an adult of the opposite sex that is ready to breed. The buyer will probably not be much happier with a replacement hatchling of the correct sex, since he still has two years more years to wait.
If a refund is requested, should the seller be expected to refund the value of the adult animal at the current market rate, or the purchase price paid two years before?
I see nothing feasible that will fully satisfy the buyer.

I do have a time limit on my guarantee of proper sexing. I have so far never had anyone report back to me that I made a mistake, but it's bound to happen eventually.
I used 7 days sort of as an arbitrary number when writing up the terms. In the instance you outlined above, of course I would go ahead and replace the animal if possible, or refund the money, but if the buyer decides to wait two years before contacting me, then I'm sorry, at some point the buyer has to assume responsibility for his animal. I'm not a nursemaid. I have no problem with those who lack knowledge, as long as they are actively trying to remedy that situation, but someone who is content to be lacking in a basic skill of reptile keeping doesn't benefit from much sympathy from me.

I can understand people keeping lower end animals not bothering learning how to sex them. At the same time however, a responsible prospective breeder of lower end animals should not be maintaining a single pair in my opinion either.
Those who are hoping to breed the higher end animals, where single pairs are common, or there is a significant price difference between the sexes should learn to probe. There's really no excuse for not doing it.
I want everyone who buys a snake from me to be completely happy with the purchase. At the same time however, I am not going to be shackled to every sale indefinately, just waiting for someone to show back up in 2 or 3 years or more claiming I sold them the wrong sex.
Unless it's a high end het or something for which there would be a reason for me to retain pictures of the animal with a record of the buyer, there's no chance of my recognizing it anyway.

 

[The BoidSmith]

I believe it is unrealistic for a buyer to expect a lifetime guarantee of the correct sex. Frankly, if you are unable to sex a snake nor do you have anyone handy who can, I'm not so sure you should be undertaking a breeding project in the first place.

Clay,

I certainly understand that mistakes happen, and they can and should be corrected. A similar argument to the quote above could be made with regards to the seller. If one is unable to sex a snake properly (or misexed by mistake and not stand behind it) should one be selling sexed snakes? It is the seller that's offering a product. He is not offering a "most likely" female, he states is the proper sex and pricing it accordingly.

Regards.

 

[dwedeking]

Excellent post Clay. That covers the major points.

Daniel,

If you are spending that type of money on a snake shouldn't a vet visit be a priority within the health guarantee time frame (especially if your not experienced) since this is an investment purchase. Have it sexed while you are there.

Also an as example. We produce bearded dragons in the thousands each year. It would be difficult to keep pictures of each one for 1, 2 ...4 years in any type of filing system that would be easily workable (or cost efficient). What about someone like Rich Z that produces the large amounts of corn snakes every year? Your talking about a full time employee just to cover paperwork. I'd rather put that man power focus on customer service or animal care.

On the subject of TOS. For us this is our protection. We commonly go beyond our stated TOS to satisfy the customer. But when we smell something funny with a complaint this gives us a clearly stated line we can fall back on.

This is my stated point of view as a seller.

As a buyer I check when they come in (now that I know how to sex snakes). Before I knew I'd grab someone that knew how to do it and have them double check. Just like I do with every product that UPS delivers so I can get any issues resolved right away.

 

[Seamus Haley]

I can see both sides of the argument...

On the one hand, if an animal is sold using specific terms and a specific description, any aspects of the description which are false would then become misrepresentation of the animal for sale. While it's certainly hoped that the misrepresentation was inadvertant, there are some species which are easier to make a mistake on and, as Clay said, eventually it's inevitable when a dealer is selling a certain volume.

On the other hand, there is a certain responsibility on the part of the buyer as well, to verify within a reasonable period of time that the animal they purchased is actually the animal they recieved. While there are some genetic traits which can't be verified until the animal is of breeding age, sexing really isn't such a difficult thing and, as was stated, anyone who can't sex the type of snake they are keeping really has no business needing to know the gender. There are thousands of small time hobbiests who make most their purchases in their local shops and may try out an internet sale or two to boost their collection from two animals to three... The majority can't sex snakes but they don't NEED to sex snakes, they just want a family pet. If someone chooses to undertake the responsibility involved with adding to the captive population, they also choose to accept the responsibility for doing so in an educated and appropriate manner. Can't do that without knowing the basics of reptile reproduction, at least a primer for the genetics involved with whatever species they choose to work with and simple things such as sexing.

Personally I've always been more of a consumer than a seller, having sold very few animals online (Er... six as of this date, all to the same individual) but I have worked with the public on and off in assorted retail situations so I can see both sides. I feel, simply as an opinion... that there should be a reasonable time frame worked into the TOS of any seller who's going to be moving animals and using their gender as a description, I also feel that this should be a slightly longer period of time than is given for health (poor care can cause health to change, Gender really shouldn't in most species). A couple months for someone to verify, by themselves and/or with an outside source doesn't seem unreasonable, unless a seller makes a regular habit of deliberately misrepresenting gender to jack up a price, but there really does need to be a finite and agreed upon limit to just how far a seller needs to go to babysit a customer. While the best of the good guys will go extra steps or work with a buyer outside of a guarantee period (If an animal keels over dead the day after a guarantee ends, most sellers would be sympathetic) given reasonable justification, there is a point that's simply too much, too far, too long after the fact.

 

[dwedeking]

BTW, In reviewing our TOS (an ongoing thing we do) I've spent time researching other companies TOS standards in and out of this industry. Every other industry and large corporations have limiting statements in their liability clauses. If you ship a package via UPS you have a set period of time to report damage. So if I order something and it sets in the box for 3 months until I use it. I then find out UPS broke it in transport I'm SOL. Also most companies limit their financial liability to the amount of the sale (so no offspring, no feeding charges etc).

 

[Clay Davenport]

If one is unable to sex a snake properly (or misexed by mistake and not stand behind it) should one be selling sexed snakes?

In my opinion there's a definate difference between standing behind your animals and being chained to any given sale for the lifetime of the snake.
What exactly do you consider an adequate means of backing up a determination of sex?
Do you feel if after two years I should refund or replace an animal I made a mistake with?
If so, what should be the refund amount, the purchase price, the current value of that animal, the value of an adult of the opposite sex?
What about the snake itself, is it returned?
If returned does the buyer just lose the cost of raising the snake for those two years?
If a replacement, then what age?
What about after 5 years, in the case of some species which take a longer time to mature sexually?

I feel that if after a failed breeding attempt they take the snake to someone and discover it was missexed, then they most likely had that ability when the snake was still a hatchling. Why wait? If the sex of the snake is of utmost importance, then the buyer should feel compelled to take any steps necessary to ensure he did indeed get what he paid for regardless of who sold it to him. The more expensive the animal the more this is true.
If the issue were the genetics of a het, then there's a big difference there as that cannot be determined without breeding. The sex however can.

Two or even three months down the road if a mistake was discovered in my sexing, I would have no problem refunding or replacing the animal if I had others available. Much longer than that though and it's time for the buyer to assume some responsibility.

If someone is going to be breeding snakes, then they need to either be able to sex snakes themselves, or have someone readily available who can.
I refuse to hold the hand of prospective breeders for years to come when they just want to breed the snakes and put no effort at all into learning the related skills that I feel are required of any breeder.

 

[bpc]

Plain and simple if the sex matters and one is buying/paying extra, based on sex, they should be able to determine sex upon arrival. If they can't do it themselves, they should hire someone to do it for them. But cmon, it's not that hard to learn how to do it. If you're doing all the research required to breed animals, certainly part of that research would be how to determine sex.

 

[WebSlave]

Interesting. This exact thing happened to me several years ago when I was working with Pueblan milk snakes.

I had sold a girl a "pair" of babies, and a couple of years later when she went to breed them, discovered that the female was actually a male. Oops! Now of course she was not happy about that, but what do you say to her? I certainly was not going to surrender one of my breeding sized females to her in exchange, and certainly was not going to refund her the price of the animal PLUS the feed and maintenance over the last couple of years. So I just started off the conversation asking what she wanted to do about it, with those caveats understood. What we agreed to was that she would meet me at the following show (I think this was at Expo when in Orlando) and pick out whatever she wanted off of the table as a replacement. I don't think it really satisfied her, but she did realize that there is a limit to what someone can and will do in a situation like that.

Missexing happens to everyone, regardless of experience level. However for a new purchaser, this fact is not really driven home until they reach the point where they are actually sexing their own animals. Most do not realize that this is not as simple as looking at a blue or red dot on the snakes' head. Any interruption or lapse in concentration can do it. When I sex my snakes, it is normally because I need to do so before the show coming up the following weekend, so necessarily I am in semi-panic mode trying to sex several hundred babies and doing this 3am in the morning. This is about a worst case scenario as you can get for concentration. I have caught myself popping a snake as a male, but writing the female sign on the ID tag. I don't catch all of them, certainly, when I am doing it. I have also found deli cups sitting on the tables at the show preparing for opening of the show and noticed that the name label says it is a male yet the penciled in notation on the ID tag says it is a female. I just grabbed the wrong label by mistake. I have had people ask me to verify the sex of an animal at a show, so I pick up the "female", and even a quick glance at it visually tells me it is a male. Popping embarrassingly verifies that fact. Heck, I learned a long time ago to ALWAYS write the sex of the animal in pencil!

Anyway, this just happens. People buying snakes (or any animal where sex is not obvious to determine) need to realize this and verify the sexes themselves of the animals they receive. But this in itself will introduce yet another problem. When you have an inexperienced buyer sexing the animals they just got from you, telling you that YOU were wrong, how do you resolve this problem? What happens if you get it back and you find that you actually did sex it properly but the buyer made a mistake? I doubt anyone will think such a scenario is unlikely to happen.

What can be done about it? Nothing much except verify the sexes of the animals you sell as many times as you can. I sex the babies when I mark the deli cups, and I also try to sex them all prior to shipping them out to a customer. Even with this, I am certain mistakes still get out the door. Even with such a miniscule percentage of error of 1 out of 100, with 3,000 snakes going out you STILL have 30 errors that someone is going to be unhappy about. Get REAL anal about it, and check and recheck the sexes, maybe cutting that by half, you STILL have 15 pissed off people somewhere, sometime per year.

When I pop the babies, I try popping them three times at a sitting if they appear to be females. Meaning, three tries without a pop means it is a female. Now the scary part of this is that in some instances, I have had babies not pop on tries one and two, but pop on try number three. How many of those that did not pop on the three tries might have popped on the fourth try? But when do you stop trying? When you have crushed the tail to a pulp? This is fraught with potential error anyway, because in most cases the act of sexing a snake is trying to prove a negative. Everything we do is basically saying "well it doesn't appear to be a male, so it must be a female." Truthfully, the ONLY 100 percent guaranteed accurate way to determine if a snake is a female is if it lays eggs it is a female. Probably.

 

[Neil Gubitz]

No matter how "professional" you are, or how long you've been in the business.... EVERYONE missexes animals at one time or another.... it happens all the time (as I did with Davy's snake).... About two years ago, I had an adult pair of Meller's Chameleons.... about a month after I got them, the Male just up and died.... I called one of the larger wholesalers in the business and asked him to send me another Male Meller's.... he said, "No problem".... One week after I recieved him, I called the seller and told him that his "male" just laid 33 eggs!!.... We had a good laugh over that.... I kept the female, and just bought another male.... It happens....

I think that your guarantee should stipulate where your "cutoff" point is (as far as the sex goes).... I give a 7 day guarantee for sex.... EVERY BUYER should sex their animals as soon as they get them in (if the sex is that important), they should also sex them TWICE by TWO separate individuals.... and even then, how do WE (as the seller) know that they sexed them correctly??....

It's going to be a problem forever.... we (as sellers) have to put a time line on this.... a month or two down the road is just too long a period to honor a guarantee on sex....

Now, If the seller GUARANTEES the sex.... then I think your "normal" guarantee is null and void, and the animal should be replaced no matter how long it takes (if the sex you gave was wrong).... and that's only if you can PROVE it is the same animal....

When I sex a snake.... anything that "pops" is a male.... anything that doesn't "pop".... GETS PROBED!!.... As Rich said, it is very possible for a snake to have enough muscle control to keep his hemipenes inverted when trying to "pop" them.... probing is the only true method to guarantee the sex, by an experienced person.... any novice could possibly break the "wall" and think it's a male.... you better KNOW how to probe, or you could seriously damage the animal....

Neil

 

[WebSlave]

Probing is not foolproof either, unfortunately. If you use a probe that is too big, the male will probe as a female because the probe will not be able to be fully inserted. Another issue with probes is that generally speaking, any probe that is small enough to work reliably on a small baby colubrid is also plenty sharp enough to cause some damage if the user is not extremely careful. If a customer of mine, with minimal experience, said he/she probed a baby corn as a male, I would be a bit concerned about it, wondering if the snake was injured in the process.

Heck, for that matter, I have personally watched people trying to pop baby snakes by turned them over on their backs in their hands, and bending the tail 90 degrees downwards from the spine to try to pop the hemipenes. This radical bending of the spine of a baby snake certainly cannot be without some sort of damage, I suspect. I keep the lower body of the snake as straight as possible and the tail fully supported on my pointing finger while roll squeezing the tail towards the vent with my thumb. This keeps bending of the spine down to virtually nil.

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Last week one of my male corn snakes laid 30 eggs (20 slugs, bummer). OOOPs!

I purchased that corn from someone I trust as a Female.
I was learning to sex them, so a friend I trust sexed several of my snakes. He sexed that corn as a Male.
I was still hoping it was a female so I put it with a proven male and hoped for the best.
Well~ 10 good eggs and 20 slugs~ I'm now sure it's a girl!! (Hope for a better show from her next year!)

I purchased 1.1 high end het BPs in 2002. I live in fear that the breeder did or did not correctly sex them. Obviously mistakes happen (Referance the male corn snake laying 30 eggs) ~ but I can't bring myself to probe the animals. I know how now, I'm confident sexing all of my other animals~ but not those two. What if I make a mistake? What if I damage these animals??

I bought them as 1.1 I beleive they are 1.1 If they are not~ wow am I gonna be upset!!

 

[NEWReptiles]

Plain and simple if the sex matters and one is buying/paying extra, based on sex, they should be able to determine sex upon arrival. If they can't do it themselves, they should hire someone to do it for them. But cmon, it's not that hard to learn how to do it. If you're doing all the research required to breed animals, certainly part of that research would be how to determine sex.

I agree, if you plan on dumping alot of money on a high-end animal, you should be able to sex it yourself of have it sexed by a 3rd party that is trusted.

 

[Seamus Haley]

It occured to me when reading the replies that I would have to differentiate between proven and unproven animals as well.

If I buy an unproven animal and there's a gender listed I should make certain as a buyer to verify the gender within a reasonable period of time. I also believe this period should be longer than health/live arrival guarantees since there's nothing a buyer can do to modify the gender of the snake however there does need to be a cutoff point...

If I buy a proven pair... or even an individual animal listed as proven... it had better be the gender advertised and there had better be some kind of ability to return it for compensation if it turns out to be incorrect. While I can see making a mistake popping or probing (Heck I've done it myself from time to time) I can't see a mistake when a pair of animals was observed copulating, then fertile eggs or live neonates were produced by one of the animals. I suppose there could be a snafu with the labeling or some feed cards could get switched around but... Even if I don't verify the gender for a year or more (Don't know why this would be the case but...) I'd expect the dealer to make 100% good on the error.

 

[Wilomn]

So far all is sound and sensible.

What do you do when you buy snakes that are carrying a specific trait that you want to breed for and it turns out that your pair, 1.1, is actually a pair, 0.2 or, even worse a pair of 2.0?

I was in this exact situation this year. I've mentioned it in another thread but it seems to have relevance here as well. I sold a pair of snakes whose father was a hypomelanistic individual. He's the only one like him I've ever seen.

I sold them to a good guy with a lot of snakes of his own. Somehow I either sent him a mislabled snake or mis-sexed the snake when I sent it but, he wound up with 2 females.

Had these just been normals with no special genes I would have offered some sort of deal on a replacement. However, since these were purchased specifically to try to reproduce hypomelanistic animals this is not your typical sale such as is made to someone picking up a couple of corn snakes.

I have not produced these snakes in the last two years. An airconditioner malfunction and 110 degree weather killed my adult females. They had just eaten two days prior to the heat and had bellies full of rat. That was a very sad day.

I still have the male and a couple of his daughters that I will breed next season and I will then send a male out at no charge.

In the future I will include as part of my TOS the statement that sexes must be verified no more than 30 days from reciept of animals.

I think this falls outside the normal sale that most of us deal with but still needs to be considered as lots of us produce hets of one thing or another.

If it's covered in the TOS and everyone knows what they are supposed to do then we are all covered. As Seamus and Rich said, we all make mistakes with neonates on occasion.

For sales of adults or sub-adults there really is NO reason for mis-sexing them. Although mistakes can and will happen, sorry Cheryl, if you put that little limit in the TOS then no one has any reason to complain.

Wes Pollock

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

No need to applogize for not agreeing with me Wes. (Well maybe not~ I'm pretty sure I'm always right~ but I could be wrong! LOL!)

I actually do agree with y'all, I was just trying to point out why someone maybe would not check the sex on a pair. I said I would be very upset if I don't have a 1.1.........and I will be if that is the case, but I've known all along that if I don't have a 1.1 it will be my fault for not having the nerve to double check them. Frankly~ I trust the breeder I purchased them from to have sexed them correctly more than I trust myself not to damage them if I were to try to probe them. I'll know next year. Luckily, I still respect the breeder as much today as I did 1 1/2 years ago when I purchased them, so I still beleive they are a 1.1 pair of hets.

 

[Wilomn]

Sorry, Cheryl, I thought you were referring to one of the snakes that I sexed for you. I thought I had made the mistake.

Now I'm confused. Surprise surprise.

Just for clarity, mine if no one elses, was the one that laid eggs one of the ones I thought was a male?

thanks,
Wes

 

[Cheryl Marchek AKA JM]

Yes, but I wasn't going to mention that.

Really~ It was the Amel that wouldn't quit biting you. I'm suprised you didn't just yank her in a knot and be done with her!

on the 24th she laid 20 slugs and 10 good eggs~ I'm just as glad she is female.

The 1.1 I was mentioning not having the nerve to probe are the het pieds from Kahl. I beleive he sent me the right sexes~ but when you probed the female you said it was questionable but your were almost sure female~ I am still beleiving she is going to be a female next year when I breed her~ or I am going to be very upset!

Since your visit I have gotten much more confident in sexing them myself. I even popped all of my own baby corn snakes last summer! But I just can't bring myself to risk damaging that het pied by "Violating her with a sharp stick" (Thats what Scott calls it, and he won't watch when any of the snakes are being "Violated"!)