Why do people....... More.....

[Ssthisto]

As far as proof of evolution existing...lets take a look at foxes for a moment...there was a man awhile back ...years ago actually...trying to do something with foxes (I don't remember exactly what) that included breeding them in captivity. After only a few years, traits that had NEVER been seen before in foxes started showing up...unusual colors, spotting patterns, changes in temperament (i.e. getting more tame)....this PROOF of evolution right before our very eyes...

I've read a bit more on this particular experiment - it was a scientist who wanted to find out if they could breed foxes that were less likely to stress in fur-farm environments, and which would be more readily handled. So they bred from a group of animals at a fur farm in Russia that showed the least stress at being around humans, and the most 'tame' behaviours.

In breeding for the behaviourally calmest, they started getting floppy ears, odd colour patterns and most crucially white spotting patterns - that last being the most crucial because it ruined the animals for their original purpose (Farmed fox furs). So, in that respect, by selecting for one trait (behaviour) they inadvertently discovered other 'latent' traits or new mutations - and yes, you're exactly right, it IS proof of evolution at its most basic, in a very very short time period.

 

[Gregg M]

Marcia, I think that what you are talking about is unprovable by science and religion...... There are too many things that are out of the reach of understanding...... Also, everything in existance has a perfect mathamatical equation...... Mathamatics is just the universal language to figure out what is going on...... I believe in what can be explained And in what I see before me...... Things that truely give life...... The sun is in the center of life...... Without it, we do not exist but other life forms will..... We are just a more advanced animal here on earth...... I guess it makes people feel good about living to think we are more than that...... There is no meaning to life..... It just is...... Life is good and I do not need to believe there is more to be happy with it...... So is there more??? no one knows for sure and we will not know until our time on earth is done.....

 

[Manhattan Herps]

bible does not mention dinosaurs, or cavemen because they have nothing to do with the word of god, therefor, are not important, the bible was written by man, in the eyes of god, some of you should actually take a few mionutes out of your day to read small parts of the bible. as you get deeper into it you will see points being made, that relate to todays events, mainly whats going on the the middle east...

as for so many different languages and races..read about babel in the bible and it will make sense..to those of you who would actually understand it

 

[surfrkidts]

I just have to post this because I think it fits our little topic here. I do beleive in the creation theory and also in evolution. I beleive that dinosaurs walked the earth also, and has anyone ever looked up "the christian science". its a blend of the two and some of you might enjoy it. anyways, heres what i came to post (sorry if its long):

The university professor challenged his students with this question:

Did God create everything that exists? "

A student bravely replied "Yes, he did!"

"God created everything?" the professor asked.

"Yes sir," the student replied.

The professor answered, "If God created everything,
then God created evil since evil exists, and according to the principal
that our works define who we are, then God is evil."

The professor was quite pleased with himself and boasted
to the students that he had proven once more
that the Christian faith was a myth.

Another student raised his hand and said,
"Can I ask you a question professor?"

"Of course," replied the professor.

The student stood up and asked,
"Professor does cold exist?"

The professor replied "Of course it exists.
Have you never been cold?"

The students snickered at the young man's question.

The young man replied, "In fact sir, cold does not exist.
According to the laws of physics, what we consider
cold is in reality the absence of heat. Everybody or
object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits energy,
and heat is what makes a body or matter have or transmit energy. Absolute zero
(- 460 degrees F) is the total absence of heat.
Cold does not exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel
if we have no heat.

The student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"

The professor responded, "Of course it does."

The student replied, "Once again you are wrong sir.
Darkness does not exist either.
Darkness is in reality the absence of light.
Light we can study, but not darkness.
In fact we can use Newton's prism to break white light
into many colors and study the various wavelengths
of each color. You cannot measure darkness.
A simple ray of light can break into a world of darkness
and illuminate it.
How can you know how dark a certain space is?
You measure the amount of light present.
Isn't this correct? Darkness is a term used by man
to describe what happens when there is no light present."

Finally the young man asked the professor.
"Sir, does evil exist?"

Now uncertain, the professor responded,
"Of course as I have already said. We see it every day.
It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity to man.
It is in the multitude of crime and violence everywhere
in the world. These manifestations are nothing else
but evil."

To this the student replied, "Evil does not exist sir,
or at least it does not exist unto itself.
Evil is simply the absence of God.
It is just like darkness and cold, a word that man
has created to describe the absence of God.

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens
when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat
or the darkness that comes when there is no light."


The professor sat down.

 

[Vince]

very nice

 

[reptilebreeder]

bible does not mention dinosaurs, or cavemen because they have nothing to do with the word of god, therefor, are not important, the bible was written by man,

Why would caveMEN and Dinosaurs be unimportant and have nothing to do with God, yet the same thing could be said about all kinds of stuff and things that are mentioned in the bible. Everything that is brought up about things that aren't explained or brought up in the bible is blown off by those simple explanations (excuses)

you get deeper into it you will see points being made, that relate to todays events, mainly whats going on the the middle east...

Man has applied every conflict, series of events, and era, to what the bible says "is going to happen" since day one of knowing about the bible. Every event can be interpreted any way someone wants to, to fit the "criteria" as written. If I had a dime for every time events were applied as directly relating to the coming armaggedon........I might not be a millionare as the saying goes, but I'd have a reptile collection that would be among the top collections ever.

 

[Vince]

One more thing, If man did indeed originate in the middle east as claimed god.... Then why can't the palentologist find proof of a migratory path from eden? These are not scientist remind you, but people who dig up bones.
There is a obvious migratory path in africa to every where else in the easter world

They figured this out with carbon dating.

Oh again if evolution is not real, please explain these Link one Link two
Anyone care to think where chimps would be be if oliver mated? He probably would have helped them evolve more, as to be constantly walking all the time shows more evolved hip, like what seperates walking man from ape......

carbon dateing is very flawed. that chimpo is crazy , On the show about him they said that there is reason to belive other chimps walk like this all the time.

 

[reptilebreeder]

OTOH, I think I heard it from a comedian......."if we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?" kind of makes you want to go..............hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

 

[Bringerofdoom]

Very simple john, if you refferr to some of the charts i posted, you see that we evolved from a walking man ape (Australopithecus africanus), chimpanzee's wich we are closet to developed from the same walking man ape. 6 million + years of independant evolution from them, made 2 completle different looking people. Again this is why science had proven we were closest to chimpanzee's over apes.

its been recently found out that the hippo is related to the whale if evolution is not real, please explain that one..

Oh, and vince. Reguardless of oliver, whats your thoughs on Bassou? He's proven to be a man. Look at this link (Homo habilis) Or this one (Homo Erectus) And this one (Homo Archaic) Looks almost the same head and bone type structure right? That is way before homo-sapien came....

Look at this You can see our head slowly come to be from looking at the oldest apelike skulls to the present modern man skull in the homonids.

My last post i swear.....

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

evolution

Marcia, I think that what you are talking about is unprovable by science and religion...... There are too many things that are out of the reach of understanding......

Yes, Gregg! That is where Faith comes in! Like I said, our little pea-brains cannot conceive or comprehend all of God's works, and science is our tool to help us try to understand. Won't it be great when we finally do evolve enough to use our entire brain, and not just a tiny percentage of it?

 

[Vince]

I agree that Bassou looks alot like any of those that you listed. but how did it pop up out of homo sapians? very strange, maybe we all shared the gene pool some where in the past. or maybe he is a product of interbreeding? I do not really know anough about evolution to say I do or dont belive in it.

hippos are really related to whales? I would love to read about that if you have a link. I know that whales used to live on the land. I always thought it was odd how whales and dolphins have five fingers inside those flippers.

 

[Vince]

woops , just found the link. thanks I will enjoy reading it.

 

[StinaUIUC]

John (Reptilebreeder), that was gone over already...in a nutshell....If animals can't exist as multiple related species...why are there multiple apes?... We did not evolve from apes...we and the other higher primates evolved from a common ancestor and developed differently...if we aren't related to apes please explain how we have about 98% of the exact same DNA as chimpanzees.

To those who have been here through the entire thread or read the whole thing...please excuse the backtrack...

 

[Bringerofdoom]

Sorry again, i just realized something. In the map where i detailed where i think were some origin points points of man could have been. Oddly enough one of them is morocco, Exaclty the same place Bassou was found in the wild.......

Another interesting spot Is congo, where oliver was captured in the wild and sold to its owner. Again these are true signs of evolution, dismissed for various reasons, Because "certain sources" want direct proof, when they themselves depend on a total belief for their theory to work.

This is the last update. I will post the link to a page where i will detail all these things i am going over, when i am done. Ill even try to contact true evolutionist to see if my thoughts are viable. I'm going over a larger theory, where i point out every detail of human evolution. Even how our races came to be the colors they are now.

 

[reptilebreeder]

John (Reptilebreeder), that was gone over already.....

.

Sorry about that StinaUIUC (I always forget to look at everybody's name before I reply), the last time I checked the thread it was about anthropomorphism (sp?) and Geckos, next thing I know I'm in the middle of this. I'll try to backtrack to see where I got lost.
As you may have guessed from my two posts (the one you are addressing, and the other one where I made statements pertaining to the bible), I'm on the fence, just pondering questions from both sides of the issue, advocate if you will.

in a nutshell....If animals can't exist as multiple related species...why are there multiple apes?... We did not evolve from apes...we and the other higher primates evolved from a common ancestor and developed differently.....

Sure, I can understand that, using reptiles as examples, since that's what we're all into; The Western Rattlesnakes were 13 subspecies, a bunch of work was done and many of them are being elevated to species level (for the sake of my argument, I won't get into the lumper vs. splitter issue), but the proposal is/was that certain of the subspecies have diverged enough, to become species. In the end though, they are all still snakes, I wonder if they will ever turn into something else? I realize that we are talking about years in the tens of thousands? vs hundreds of thousands?, but in this same mind set, with the common ancestor into multiple species statement, it just seems like there would be another line (or more) of animal between us and the chimp, a near human, or different kind of higher level primate. (If that animal bringerofdoom is talking about is similar to this line of my pondering, maybe It will help my thought process, when I go back through this thread completly.)

.if we aren't related to apes please explain how we have about 98% of the exact same DNA as chimpanzees....

Really, if I could explain that I wouldn't be an agnostic Actually, I thought there was some smaller type primate that we were closer to DNA wise, maybe it is just a type of chimpanze. Been a while since my college science classes, I'm going to refresh my memory, gotta find where I hid my notes.

To those who have been here through the entire thread or read the whole thing...please excuse the backtrack...

also please excuse my jumping in earlier and posting something that had already been addressed, before having read this rapidly expanding (evolving ) thread. I will read the whole thread now, before I post again. Dial-up so who knows when I'll be back.

 

[Ssthisto]

God did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens
when man does not have God's love present in his heart.
It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat
or the darkness that comes when there is no light."

However, there's a problem with this. According to the bible and the myths that go along with it, God most certainly DID create evil - God created the group of angels that later disagreed with him on how the universe should be run, God cast them down, God let them retain their powers, and God even took up his wayward angel Lucifer's challenge to do evil things, cruel things, to a faithful worshipper - Job. God placed the tree of Knowledge in the Garden of Eden - and if God is all-knowing and all powerful, God must certainly have known that the serpent would tempt Man and that Man would be weak - and God let it happen anyway.

Vengeful God/Loving God - it's the paradox in itself. If God is all-powerful, then God is not interested in preventing evil. If God is not all-powerful, then I could understand him giving Man free choice.

 

[Ssthisto]

OTOH, I think I heard it from a comedian......."if we evolved from apes, how come there are still apes?" kind of makes you want to go..............hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

Why? I don't know if you're being sarcastic here and implying that the comedian is being daft - or if you're implying that it's a valid point.

If I descended from my grandparents, why do my grandparents' other grandchildren, my cousins, still exist?

That is the EXACT question that is being asked when one says 'If we evolved from apes, why are there still apes?' When it is phrased in that manner, I hope it's pretty obvious how ridiculous the question is. Evolutionarily speaking, the great apes extant now are 'cousins' - not 'grandparents'.

 

[Ssthisto]

John (Reptilebreeder), that was gone over already...in a nutshell....If animals can't exist as multiple related species...why are there multiple apes?... We did not evolve from apes...we and the other higher primates evolved from a common ancestor and developed differently...if we aren't related to apes please explain how we have about 98% of the exact same DNA as chimpanzees.

I'm just pausing here. What do you/others mean 'animals can't exist as multiple related species' ?

Of course they can.

Dogs/Wolves/Dingos/New Guinea Song Dogs - they're all Canis lupus subspecies. Go a little further 'back' into the family tree, and you get Wolves/Foxes/Jackals - and they're all clearly related, they're all canids. Then go a little further, and you get 'carnivores' - felines/canines/ursines/mustelids.

For that matter, what about the (OBTopic) other geckos with eyelids? Eublepharis macularius isn't the ONLY gecko with eyelids - and the others are pretty similar in habits and habitat, but exist across the globe, with some isolated subpopulations.

Humans most certainly did evolve from a type of now-extinct -ape- (Yes, that's the word that, if the animal existed today, would be used to describe it) that is a common ancestor with today's chimpanzees and bonobos.

 

[reptilebreeder]

John (Reptilebreeder), that was gone over already...in a nutshell If animals can't exist as multiple related species..why are there multiple apes?... We did not evolve from apes...we and the other higher primates evolved from a common ancestor and developed differently...if we aren't related to apes please explain how we have about 98% of the exact same DNA as chimpanzees
I'm just pausing here. What do you/others mean 'animals can't exist as multiple related species' ?

Of course they can. .

She knows that, and I think she knew I knew that, so it was asked rhetorically. Actually, maybe not rhetorically, as she actually asked and answered it in the same paragraph you quoted.

 

[riverjop]

So the man said to God whats a million years to you?

God said a second!

Then the Man said to God whats a million dollars too?

God said a penny!

Then the Man said to God will you give me a penny?

And God said sure you'll just have to wait a second!