Inquiry William Wohlers?

[wohlerswi]

Justin that is nice. I do not know Dustin like you do, and with the threats and all the other sort, no I do not really trust Dustin. Ill take your word for it. I told Dustin I would fix the issue with some sort of proof, and he didnt ever get back to me. I was completely transparent with everything involving that girl including what she produced for me and what she didnt produce for me too. didnt produce this girl, and I never once quit my open communication with Dustin. I told him what she produced for me well after she layed. If I was trying to scam anyone would I have done that? Would I have given Dustin all my personal info? Would I have kept my communication going with him?

If she isnt a het Im truly sorry, I did not produce her. I can only go by what was told to me by the seller and the paperwork that was supplied to me with her. The paperwork I gave to Dustin. I was going to make it right with just a little proof. She is a het, I know she is. Dustin just needs to breed her again and he will see. He acts like Im a crook when he cant deny Ive been in constant contact with him and have been truthful with what she produced for me. I have a negative trader rating because of Dustin thats the only reason. Now seriously not addressing this situation anymore.
Will

 

[wohlerswi]

I only sold her and a few other animals to raise funds to open our retail store. I cant remember off the top of my head what I bred her to but I believe is was a firefly het pied or a fire het pieds or something. Recessive wise it atleast had pied genes, but I told dustin the only nice thing I got out of the clutch (half of which went bad) was a vanilla firefly.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

Why didn't you get pictures of the pairing, ovulation, laying, and the eggs hatching since they came from a friend and its such a norm to do that. I mean it was a joint project so you say. I had originally planned to breed this girl to MY lavender but plans changed! I would have never got my lavender had I known.

 

[wohlerswi]

I have told you MANY times Dustin it wasnt a joint project. I loaned Josh my pied the year she was produced, I do not know what all he bred him to. They weren't joint projects, and I never claimed them to be. I ended up buying him from her when she was an adult, does that make it a joint project? Your lying again Dustin because I never claimed that. Josh is my friend and I got paperwork with her, why would I have asked for pictures of the pairing and so forth? is that custom when youre buying animals because Ive never had that done for me. but if you want a refund based on genetics then you better damn well show pics to suppose what you claim right?

 

[Lucille]

I have done numerous transactions with customers online for over 15 years, and my customers are always happy.

I searched your name here for those numerous good guy posts that all those customers must have left, not a one showed up. Perhaps I searched the wrong way?

Again, it's just me, but if I saw two different complaints of bad hets, I would not be buying hets from this guy any more until customers lined up and told stories with proof, of proved out hets.
There's simply too much competition and too many proven good guys listed right here on Fauna with stuff to sell, to waste precious time with critters you are not sure of.

 

[wohlerswi]

Lack of good guy threads makes me a scammer? Well what about my lack of bad guy threads? Same damn thing. Look me up on kingsnake to see how long Ive been around. People dont post on BOI for most transactions unless prompted by the seller and that is classless. Its not my fault most people dont post good or bad.

I havent sold 2 shady hets either. Clays female produced visual albinos for me. Why would I say that on a cheap animal and then turn around and tell Dustin his didnt produce any visuals (on an expensive animal) for me if Im not telling the truth? I dont care what you have to say Lucy, you are welcome to your opinion even though its jaded. Good luck

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I never asked for a refund Will, I said I'd send the girl back so you could prove her and you could send me something in replacement of equal value. I've never threatened you other than with calling the authorities which yeah I did threaten that mostly to try and get you to contact me back because you didn't respond for around a week or more when I first let you know the het girl didn't prove out. I gave you CASH and a decent amount of it for this girl so of course I was pissed when she didn't prove. And you definitely said it was a joint project between you and josh.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers ([email protected])
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5/14/13
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To: [email protected]
[email protected]

I still have the vanilla but not the other girl, I sold her almost immediately after placing the ad. I have one person that wants the vanilla but want me to hold until they can pay next week so she is still available. thanks
Will

William Wohlers
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5/15/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Hey Dustin,
I could do that. What did you have in mind ? thanks
Will


Re: Message about: Adult female low expression vanilla double het for lavender albino and pied CHEAP! from [email protected]
William Wohlers
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5/15/13
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To: Dustin B.
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She comes from Josh Wolfe of Rare Creations. You can look him up on the BOI, he comes with stellar reccomendations. She also does come with paperwork. If you look on the ad, my camera is in the shop getting repaired. So I dont have any pics of her at the moment but if she isnt sold by the time my camera is fixed I wil definately take some. Ive had a lot of interest on her, just no one commit so far. thanks
Will

William Wohlers
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5/15/13
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To: Dustin B.
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I coud do that for you. So $300 down and $1300 by 60 days from now? That would work for me, and Ill go ahead and consider her sold. Do you mind sending the payments through paypal as a gift and not as payment for services? That way paypal doesnt take out there usual crap fees lol. You can still notate on the "gift" what the payment is for. Talk to you soon and my paypal is [email protected]
thanks
Will

William Wohlers
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5/15/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Hey Dustin,
Sounds good buddy. I got the payment. I dont mind doing it that way at all, most people just dont want to spend the extra money. Anyway Ill stuff her for you, and you let me know when you have that next payment together. Thanks again man
Will

Hey Dustin,
Sorry bud I never recieved an email yesterday. I did finally get my camera back so as soon as I get home tomorrow Ill shoot you some pics. Sorry I havent sent them before now, I actually didnt get my camera back until the day before we left for memorial weekend. We ended up spending the weekend and the beginning of this week at the in-laws lol. Anyway Ill get home tomorrow afternoon and snap some pics. Sound good? thanks again
Will

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Hey Dustin,
Im getting home real late and all the lights are off now in the snake room, so Ill shoot you some pics of the girl in the light tomorrow. I did however take a pic of the genetics guarantee from josh. Josh laminated it so it was hard to get it at an angle that didnt glare but I think I did a good job. Let me know that it shows up well on your end. Talk to you soon, hope you like her, she actually has gotten even lighter since I got her. I havent looked at the paperwork in months. All her patches are outlined in almost a blonde color, and she overall has a much whiter appearance now. Talk to you soon.
Will

ps I hope you werent in the hospital for anything serious?

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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Three days stay from a stomach bug, yikes! That must have gotten pretty bad. Ive never had an overnight stay in the hospital and Im hoping to keep it that way lol. Im off all day today so Im gonna start working on those pics pretty soon. I have to take some for another lady today too. So Ill talk to you soon. Glad youre feeling better.
Will

more coming

 

[dustinNMpythons]

at this point I made a dispute to paypal because I called GCR to find out if they even ever made a vanilla lavender female because it said GCR Vanilla Lavender on the paperwork and they told me they never had. I can't remember what all we talked about at this time because he always deleted the rest of the email when replying or maybe its just the way his phone replied to emails, not sure.

[email protected]
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5/30/13
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[email protected]

----------------------------------------------------------------------
PayPal dispute: Item not received PP-002-391-506-626
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Dear Dustin Brown,

You have opened a dispute for the payment you made to The Honey Hole on May
15, 2013 (Transaction 9PB881585U981183C) indicating that you did not
receive the item you purchased.


----------------------------------------------------------------
Transaction details
----------------------------------------------------------------

Seller's Name: The Honey Hole
Seller's Email: [email protected]
Seller's Transaction ID: 5UE85786R8055554P

 

[dustinNMpythons]

Shortly after I knew I wasn't getting a refund or anything so I just said screw it I'll try and prove her and hopefully didn't get screwed over.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Do what? She is most definately what I say she is. What kind of red flags are there? This is the craziest thing I have heard. I dont know who Josh got his female from but the paperwork does say Gulf Coast. Maybe Josh was only referring to the line of vanillas that she comes from. Im going to try and get in touch with Josh on this matter but if I had anything to hide why would I have sent you a copy of the paperwork first and foremost?
Will

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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Also I have her held for you as you requested on a non refundable deposit. You can pay the balance as agreed or forfeit your deposit which is what we agreed upon. Now that you have buyers remorse/ cold feet doesnt mean I should lose out on my time of holding her. I wish you would have contacted me about this, and we can both talk to Josh rather than sending me a nasty email. Like I said before I have nothing to hide, and why would I have sent you copies of the paperwork? You can obviously tell its legit paperwork reguardless if GCR ever produced a vanilla lavender. Josh made an error on the year he signed on the paperwork and had to hand correct it (you can see it at the bottom) so wouldnt it be possible that he made an error on where he got the mom of this vanilla? Maybe the original female came from GCR and he produced the vanilla lavender from her? I dont know with out trying to contact Josh about it, which Im going to.

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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I would expect you to try and confirm details, but I would also expect you to talk to me about it as I would be in the same boat as you. Like I said I purchased her from Josh and this is the paperwork I got. I also know I loaned Josh my pied when his male wasnt wanting to breed, and have seen with my own eyes the vanilla lavender mother. I dont know why Josh would lie about anything. I have done a lot of business with him, and everything has always been what it was sold to me as. This is a holdback from the clutch (a clutch we split in 2009 because of my breeder loan) and I know for sure what clutch she came from. The only thing I didnt witness was if the clutch infact came from the vanilla lavender because I wasnt there when she laid. Ill be tracking Josh down about all this mess, and Ill be getting back in touch with you. Of coarse I want to figure this out as much as you do.
Will


To: Dustin B.
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She is being sold as a female vanilla (which you can obviously tell she is) double het for pied and lavender. She is being sold as produced by Josh Wolfe which she was. She has nothing to do with GCR except to establish her line on her paperwork from Josh. She is 100% being honestly represented, with everything she was sold to me as. You cannot say she is being sold as something she isnt, as my friend you have no idea. You are going by one red flag that you raised. Which I do understand your concern but that doesnt mean I am not honestly representing her as she was sold to me.
Will

 

[Lucille]

William Wohlers

To: Dustin B.
[email protected]
Do you mind sending the payments through paypal as a gift and not as payment for services? That way paypal doesnt take out there usual crap fees lol.
Will

Sending Paypal payments is not only unethical as it deprives Paypal of its living, those who send payments that way have no recourse if something goes wring.

 

[Lucille]

Sending Paypal payments

as a gift

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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I specified the deposit would be non refundable, when is a deposit ever refundable? That would mean I held this snake for 3 weeks for you, took a loss, and have to return the deposit? But since you already contacted paypal for a refund I dont know why we are even still talking about this. The deposit is non refundable as specified. Im going to repost the snake for sale, and try and get in touch with Josh in the mean time. When I talk to him, if you still want the girl and she is not sold then you will still have the option of purchasing her, but other than that I dont know what to tell you. Ive been trying to do whatever you need in this situation .
Will

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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Its not fraudulent when that is what came with the snake and this is how it was sold to me. If I was misrepresenting her why would I be open to rectifying the situation or even atempt to, and why would I have spent the time looking for the paperwork pulling it out, taking pics to satisfy you etc if I was being fraudulent. Sorry bud, but Ive been trying to work with you and rectify the situation. If I was fraudulent do you think I would even be interested in figuring this out for you? This is something that Im going to get to the bottom of, but that doesnt mean you get a refund. Like I said if you want her, you can still have her down the road for the balance owed but since you have no interest in getting the female now this can only be attributed to you not being able to pay, and trying to come up with a slick way of trying to get your non refundable deposit back.

Will

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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Oh I will cause I need to sell her as much as you want her. I seriously am trying to figure this out. I spent a lot more on her than I am selling her for and that would mean a huge loss if she wasnt double het. It has to be a simple mistake in the paperwork, human error. It happened at the bottom on the date as you can probably see in the pics so I dont know why it would be far fetched to think he typed the wrong info. The only thing that is in dispute is where the mother came from, as I saw the mother many times with my own two eyes. I can send you pics of my pied who fathered the cutch, and my lavender lavenders which come out of the same line (acquired from Josh). I know that doesnt prove anything but maybe helps prove my honesty. I am a very open and honest person, and it really bothers me when someone says otherwise. Remember I have a stake in this too as I bought her from someone else.
Will


You filed a claim with paypal when you should have come to me from the beginning. You filed a claim with them saying you never recieved your item. That is fraud by your definition because you were not finished paying for your item in order to recieve it. Correct? The refund was stated as always is non refundable, you still have a $1300 balance in order to recieve the snake you put on hold.

Here is a picture of a lavender I produced last year from a pair of double hets from Josh Wolfe. I didnt even get a genetics guarantee on that pair. But I did produce a lavender and two pieds from the pair before I sold them. Also a pic of the pied father that I loaned to Josh, and a pic of a pastel het lavender from 2010 from the same female that produced this vanilla (I know it doesnt rally prove anything but you can go in the subscript of the pic and see when it was taken, and when it was named showing you I have had these genetics from him proven in my collection for a while).This seriously could have been handled a different way, and if something in fact did turn out to be bad we could have handled it at that point. Before you were required to make anymore payments.



Wil

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Dont threaten me with a BOI when I havent done anything but offer to rectify the situation since you want the snake and I need the funds. The reason I am acting like you are wrong is because you completely mishandled the situation. You should have come straight to me, and let me look into things before filing a claim with paypal. You also jumped the gun accusing me basically of being fraudulent when Im just selling an animal that I didnt produce. Selling it as I bought it, with genetics guarantee and everything. It put me on the defensive because I havent done anything, and up until I recieved that first email from you I thought we had a good standing relationship. You out of the blue send me that email, when we had just talked the morning of and everything was fine. It caught me off guard as well as upset me because my reputation is everything. And Ive been very upfront and honest with everything you ever need.
Will

William Wohlers
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5/30/13
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Dustin,
You apparently need to reread my emails or maybe you just dont understand. Im not saying it wouldnt be fraudulent on Josh's behalf if she didnt prove out. Im simply saying you want to accuse me of being fraudulent and I am honestly representing an animal as it was sold to me. I have no doubt that she is 100% double het like I have already stated and like I have a written guarantee on. I have proven out many hets from Josh, I know Josh, and I know Josh well. I dont know that once you get this animal, you are going to take care of it. What does that mean? Nothing but leading your mind further and further from the facts.You are jumping to conclusions all because the man I purchased her from made an honest mistake on the paperwork. He only forgot to put the word "stock" at the end of the sentence. Im sure it was an honest mistake. You are freaking out because of that. Why would I assume she is anything but what I payed for and have a written guarantee on? You should have emailed me before filing a claim with paypal. You should have asked me if I knew anything about it, and if we could somehow get intouch with Josh to see what the deal was, and at that point if you werent satisfied you could have asked for your money back. You didnt give me a chance for anything in the matter, you automatically jumped the gun and started thinking "oh no Im being scammed" when that is far far from the case my friend. Everything after falls in your hands. I say its about wanting a deposit back because you didnt offer me a chance to say or do anything. Off gate you filed a claim with paypal. Im sorry assumed or not, a deposit is nonrefundable. I did state it, maybe you missed it, but have you never made payments on an animal before? You broke our deal so there for you dont get the deposit back. That is how every transaction gets handled when its payments. You claim fraud but unless this animal is proven otherwise she is absolutely 100% a double het. Omission of a word, or a simple mistake doesnt constitute fraud. Its very obvious he made a mistake at the bottom and hand corrected it. He must just not have caught the other mistake. Its human error. Simple as that, and you should have contacted me first.
Will

William Wohlers
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5/31/13
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Hey Dustin,
Sorry for the late response I just got to the hotel. My work takes me away most weekends. Ill be back tomorrow evening and Ill take pics for you but I dont have any adult lavenders at the moment. Just the couple I produced off the hets. I have to feed tomorrow when I get home anyway so I dont mind switching all the basement lights on. I sent Josh an email hoping to get him to resolve this issue for us. Havent heard anything back so I dont know if it is still a valid address, but Im trying. I completely see your side of the issue. I have from the beginning. I just was trying to get you to understand I am honestly representing this animal as it was represented to me. I felt attacked in the situation really, like you were straight up calling me a fraud. There would be nothing fraudulent on my behalf if she didnt prove out, but I do understand that I would still have to answer for our transaction if that ever happened. Also I do have a reputation to uphold. A very solid one. I sell a lot of animals I produce at shows, and locally, and a few on the net. I have many repeat customers that I am sure look on the boi threads to see if I have ever had any bad dealings. Just cause I havent had any positive feedback posted about me, I also havent had any negative feedback and Ive been on kingsnake for over ten years. I just dont sell a lot online, cause of this reason really. Its much better in my opinion for everyone, if you can meet face to face and conduct business. That still doesnt mean I dont have a reputation to uphold. There are a lot of guys that have massive collections with lots of hidden gems that dont use the internet at all. That doesnt mean certain animals dont exist, it just means they arnt nessarily public with the information. Talk to you soon
Will

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Hey Dustin,
Got home, and took some pics of her for you. Hold off to send the next payment for a couple days. I really want to hear back from Josh, as I have been thinking a lot about this. I really want to reassure you, and thats why I want to wait a few days and see if I hear back. Either way I have a clutch of her eggs incubating so I should in the next 40 days or so know for sure that she is a double het. I just really want to make sure we have a good transaction. Let me know what you think. I took pics of her head spot, clear belly, and a couple of her so you can see. She just ate a medium rat today if that gives you an idea of how big she is now. Talk to you soon
Will


ps I would have taken pics sooner, but I really dont have a camera phone. Im working with one of the old school samsung flip phones lol Every smart phone I have purchased I have cracked the from screen rendering it usless within the first week of purchase, so I just went back with my old tried and true phone

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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6/03/13
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That sounds good Dustin. I havent heard anything back from him still. I tried two different emails I had for him, but no response. If you want to just procede as planned that sounds good to me too. Im glad we were able to work everything out. She really is a super animal, and you will definately be happy with her. What are you planning on pairing her with? Congrats on the baby too! Hope it arrived healthy?
Will

William Wohlers
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6/04/13
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Good Im glad to hear everything went well and the baby is healthy. Congrats, seriously big congrats. Ill talk to you soon. Ill see if maybe I can come up with anything to pair her with for you too. Sometimes I run accross killer deals and might be able to get a lavender for you or something.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/07/13
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Cool, thanks man. What ever you did this time it worked lol. Still no word from Josh but I sent another email, so we'll see.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/12/13
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Yes. I sold her quite a while ago. I still havent heard from Josh so I think that is a dead end for the moment. If you want to go ahead when youre ready and make a payment that would be awesome. Anyway Ill talk to you soon and Ill keep trying to find other outlets for Josh
thanks
Will

William Wohlers
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6/13/13
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Cool that sounds good Dustin. I dont know how old he is but he appears to be mid 30's to early 40's. Originally when I first met Josh he told me he use to do business with Dan and Colette Sutherland (snake keeper), so I asked them about him in an email. Dan got back with me, and didnt have anything bad to say about Josh so that is the reason I originally started doing business with him but that was some years ago. I dont know if he sold snakes to them or traded or maybe just purchased but my experience has been good with him ever since. Even at the height of his snake breeding and selling he never had a website or anything. I actually met him at a couple reptile shows and he had some real rare things at the time. Hows momma and the baby doing?
Will

William Wohlers
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6/13/13
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Cool that sounds good Dustin. I dont know how old he is but he appears to be mid 30's to early 40's. Originally when I first met Josh he told me he use to do business with Dan and Colette Sutherland (snake keeper), so I asked them about him in an email. Dan got back with me, and didnt have anything bad to say about Josh so that is the reason I originally started doing business with him but that was some years ago. I dont know if he sold snakes to them or traded or maybe just purchased but my experience has been good with him ever since. Even at the height of his snake breeding and selling he never had a website or anything. I actually met him at a couple reptile shows and he had some real rare things at the time. Hows momma and the baby doing?
Will

William Wohlers
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6/13/13
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I actually originally met Josh back then. He purchased one of the first male clowns that hit the market (first time I saw one in person and I still think its my favorite morph and makes some of the best combos). I think he actually produced his first hets in 2003. I dont remember the year but I remember him bragging to me thoroughly that he made over $100,000 in sales off just het for clowns that year. Its all about having money at the right time. I believe his father passed away suddenly and he got a healthy life insurance settlement from it which allowed him to buy into the original morphs very early. Im glad the wife and baby are doing well. I hear the first 6 months can be ruff until they learn to sleep through the night. It sounds like you are handling it well though.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/13/13
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I would never want to be like Kevin lol. He has a great collection but he can be a shady character sometimes lol. There is always the future though. If you stick with it and keep after the newest morphs that come out you can be ahead of those guys in ten more years. It scares me thinking of how the ball market will be in ten years though. Its already going the way of the cornsnake. I miss the days when pastels, ghosts, albinos and pied were the only morphs out there. I remember drooling over Peter Kahls pieds for $30,000. Man that was a long time ago. It just isnt as exciting as it use to be cause we are producing new crosses and morphs multiple times a season now. It kind of takes the wind out of the small guys sails, when they are the first to produce a new combo, it just is commoplace now and people dont get as excited as they use to. Anyway talk to you soon
Will

William Wohlers
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6/15/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Wow, I wasnt expecting that. Thanks for paying in a very timely manner. I am heading out tomorrow for work, and wont be home til Wednesday morning, but I can ship on Wednesday for Thursday delivery if that works for you? I think you are right about the super dwarfs. Retics are hot, and they have been for a while. Almost like the first 5 years of the ball market. Once they start getting more of that sd blood into the sick combos like the cow I think a lot more people are going to be open to retics. They have a huge amount of eggs compaired to balls so I am pretty surprised at how well they have held their value, but it seems like people are hatching out gold mines in single clutches. I think retics are a good thing to invest in, and will continue to be for quite a while. There are also some real rare colubrids still comanding high prices, and some lizards too. I remember ten years ago when you seriously couldnt give away monkey tailed skinks (a smoking animal went for $75), but since they closed import to them about 7-8 years ago good god! I saw a proven trio the other day for almost $10,000 for the group! Lizards always seem to go in funny cycles, but are always good sellers.
Anyway let me know how that works and Ill talk to you soon.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/18/13
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Hey Dustin,
Could you send me your address and phone number again in case I dont have it handy for tomorrow? thanks
wILL

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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6/20/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Hey Dustin,
Im showing she made it. Let me know how you like her and if she is safe. I didnt feed this week cause I didnt want her to regurg in shipping so she will be ready for a meal. Feed her medium rats no problem. Anyway let me know I hope you like her.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/20/13
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To: Dustin B.
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Sounds good Dustin. Im glad she made it and is doing well. Ill let you know what I hatch for sure and Ill keep my fingers crossed you hit the vanilla dreamcicle. Im willing to bet it is going to be a killer combo. Anyway talk to you later.
Will

William Wohlers
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6/27/13
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Hey Dustin,
I bred her to a firefly het for pied poss het for lavender. I produced it too so I know its genetics for sure. Im hoping for the vanilla firefly pied but really praying for vanilla firefly dreamcicle but I dont know if I could even tell lol. Anyway good luck with her man, talk to you later.
Will

Thats all for the actually acquisition of this girl, at this point I felt like all the red flags were misunderstandings and that she was legit but the breeding proved otherwise unless that very small percentage chance of her just not proving which I admit later on that it could have happened but is a very small chance

 

[dustinNMpythons]

I don't have the original email I sent him because he only responded to the second one I sent after I finally said I was going to start a BOI and everything.

William Wohlers
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8/29/14
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To: Dustin B.
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Damn Dustin, jumping the gun. I hardly get to this email, and I just now got both of your emails. I didnt do anything wrong. I purchased the snake the exact same as you did. I told you when I got eggs from her this year that I didnt get any recessives off of her. I didnt commit any kind of fraud, and if you want to settle this then you better watch what you say. I do not take kindly to threats. I have honestly represented that animal the same way it was to me. You even received the same paperwork that I got with her. Now do you want to slow down and start over? A little more respectful this time?


On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:21 PM, Dustin B. <[email protected]> wrote:


Will, you never emailed me back when I emailed you to let you know that girl you sent me didn't prove out. I'd like to talk to you to find out what your going to do to help me but if you don't return my emails in going to contact the FBI to let them know you committed mail fraud and I'll let them know all your information as well because I have your business address your home address as well as contact info to prior customers of yours and all the emails that we exchanged for evidence because i saved them. I will also be starting a BOI. Please get back to me before i start the process.

Dustin


William Wohlers
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9/01/14
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Dustin it wasn't a joint project. He used my male for a number of things. Because I loan him a male as a friend doesnt mean it was a joint project. No one else got burned by my hets. That was a possible het animal I bought at a show. Even the guy that bought it said she probably is a het he just doesnt want to waste the time on it at this point. Im not in the business of hurting people. I never claimed that because I didnt produce it I wouldnt make it right. I said I wouldnt be refunding your money, but I obviously am trying to make it right by talking to you about it. Like I said I could have been done with the whole thing as soon as you threatened me. Lets not argue about the FBI we are going to have to agree that we disagree on that situation. You are trying to prove genetics on a snake, anything can happen. I have bred het to het numerous times and got a whole bunch of hets. It does happen Dustin. The likelyhood is small but it does
happen. Where did you get your lavender? Does it have any pied genetics? It is possible that the albino lines arnt compatible or even Josh had what he thought was a lavender? There are many possibilities, it doesnt have to be that I was ill intended right?

William Wohlers
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9/03/14
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Visual to het always has the ability to get nothing. I dont know where you are getting that from. Visual to het means each egg has a 50% chance of being a visual or a het. So of coarse you can have shit odds and every single egg you hatch turn out to be normals. Just because one parent was a visual doesnt mean anything. It just means your odds are greater for getting more visuals 50% chance instead of 25% chance. The only way to guarantee you dont get an entire clutch of hets is to breed visual to visual then ever baby will be visual. You are confused on the visual to het outcome though. I dont know where you would get that?

Anyway I am on the road for school this entire week. I'll be back Saturday night. I'll go through the racks then and see what we can work out. I didn't breed any pythons this season with our move and all. The only animals I bred were colubrids. I cooled them all down still so I could get a break. Are you interested in anything other than balls? Will


On Monday, September 1, 2014 9:12 PM, Dustin B. <[email protected]> wrote:


Yes het to het there's a possibility of not getting visuals but not visual to het. There will always be visuals in the clutch if one parent is visual. My lavender boy is a lavender there's no question about that. And when it comes to lines every lavender line is compatible so that wouldn't be the case either. I don't care how it happened or who made it I just want to know how your going to fix it. If you give me something of equal value I will send this girl back to you and you can try proving her out.

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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9/04/14
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Dustin you continue to be incorrect. I realize you think she isn't a het because you do not understand genetics. It does not mean 50% of the clutch to be visuals. It means EVERY SINGLE EGG has a 50% chance of being a visual. Then with your logic, what if a female lays only one egg? By your reasoning that one egg would HAVE to be a visual? Who decides that? With one egg, that egg still only has a 50% chance of being a visual.

When you breed het to het, a quarter of the babies will be visual and every other egg will be 66% possible het for the visual. Its not you have a 66% chance on the entire clutch. That just doesnt make sense. I have a bachelors in Biology with a strong emphasis on genetics, and you are just wrong.

I'm still not convinced she isnt a het either. I assume your lavender doesnt have any pied genetics? You say all lavender lines are compatible, but that hasnt actually been proven. That's not what I was saying anyway. I was saying that maybe Josh's animal was some other form of albino and looked lavender, or maybe yours looks lavender but in fact is not. There are many factors that could lead to why you didnt produce any visuals. I just produced a clutch of greeri from a hypo male het for white bred to a double het for white hypo female (I know she is double het for sure because I produced her) and every single baby in the clutch was a normal het hypo possible het for white. These things happen all the time. Its genetics its not a guarantee.

Ill get back up with you Saturday. In the meantime sent me over those pics of her breeding, her laying eggs, and of the clutch that hatched.
Will


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 12:43 AM, Dustin B. <[email protected]> wrote:


Actually your only partially right it means 50% of the entire clutch would be visual which coming from a 9 egg clutch is damn near impossible to not even get a single visual. I only breed ball pythons. Just get back to me when you can

 

[dustinNMpythons]

William Wohlers
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9/08/14
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To: Dustin B.
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You don't know genetics Dustin. I'm not trying to start a pissing contest or a war, but things you have said show you don't know what your saying. The percentage refers to every single egg, not the clutch as a whole. When you said you bred a visual to a het and didnt produce any visual so she is not het 100% for sure because het to visual you HAVE to produce at least one visual: right there you obviously don't understand genetics. Not trying to be mean, or nastly. But you are trying to get a refund for something based on its genetics, that you dont completely understand. You hardly have a reputation either. You have a bunch of people that you have purchased from, but few that have purchased from you. When you blow up and turn into a hot head, you come off as unintelligent Dustin. I have a stellar reputation, and have been in the business a long time my friend so don't even begin to try and make yourself believe your reputation is 100X mine. That makes you sound silly.

Now I'm not going to be fighting with you anymore. Like I said Im trying to help you, because you are a customer of mine. Not because I have to and not because the animal I sold you is anything other than what you purchased it as. Now can I get those pictures of the proof you said you would send me?

I'm sure you are aware I cant just take your word for it. You could have easily produced some amazing animals from her, and are just trying to turn around now that you produced what you needed, and trade her for something else. Not saying you are doing that, but I am explaining why I need those photos. Even if she didnt produce a visual for you this year, I know she is still a het. Like I said many times. I have proven many animals I received from Josh. I know she is 100% a double het, and you just hit bad odds on her this year. Just because you had a bad year doesnt mean you should jump ship with her and the project.
Will


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 1:46 PM, Dustin B. <[email protected]> wrote:


I've been breeding ball pythons many years don't tell me i don't know genetics. My reputation is 100x what yours is. Out of 4 eggs visual to het you should get two visuals and two hets by the odds but it doesn't always work out that way. I've made clowns, lavenders, caramel glows and tons of other recessive stuff so I have real world experience stop trying to bull shit me with your i have a degree in Biology, because I don't care. And actually it's a lavender 100% het for pied and for 9 eggs to have zero visuals that's damn near impossible. I'm not arguing about the subject anymore because it's just a pissing contest at this point, bottom line is the female you sold me didn't do what she was supposed to out of 9 eggs. could she be het... possibly but it's a tiny tiny tiny chance at this point.

Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2014 10:09:37 -0700
From: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Snake
To: [email protected]

Dustin you continue to be incorrect. I realize you think she isn't a het because you do not understand genetics. It does not mean 50% of the clutch to be visuals. It means EVERY SINGLE EGG has a 50% chance of being a visual. Then with your logic, what if a female lays only one egg? By your reasoning that one egg would HAVE to be a visual? Who decides that? With one egg, that egg still only has a 50% chance of being a visual.

When you breed het to het, a quarter of the babies will be visual and every other egg will be 66% possible het for the visual. Its not you have a 66% chance on the entire clutch. That just doesnt make sense. I have a bachelors in Biology with a strong emphasis on genetics, and you are just wrong.

I'm still not convinced she isnt a het either. I assume your lavender doesnt have any pied genetics? You say all lavender lines are compatible, but that hasnt actually been proven. That's not what I was saying anyway. I was saying that maybe Josh's animal was some other form of albino and looked lavender, or maybe yours looks lavender but in fact is not. There are many factors that could lead to why you didnt produce any visuals. I just produced a clutch of greeri from a hypo male het for white bred to a double het for white hypo female (I know she is double het for sure because I produced her) and every single baby in the clutch was a normal het hypo possible het for white. These things happen all the time. Its genetics its not a guarantee.

Ill get back up with you Saturday. In the meantime sent me over those pics of her breeding, her laying eggs, and of the clutch that hatched.
Will


On Thursday, September 4, 2014 12:43 AM, Dustin B. <[email protected]> wrote:


Actually your only partially right it means 50% of the entire clutch would be visual which coming from a 9 egg clutch is damn near impossible to not even get a single visual. I only breed ball pythons. Just get back to me when you can.