Witblits dragons - true patternless beardies

[witblits]

Hi guys.
I was asked to start this topic here. So here it goes...
We have bred a new morph. At first we thought it was anomaly but then more hatched and we consistently atched them from one pair of dragons. Have a look at our website www.witblitsdragons.com and go ahead with asking the question.
I have updated the site but if you do not find what you need to know then please ask.
This is a brand new morph. Most likely the rarest morph comercialy available today. They are truly patternless unlike leucistics and other hypo dragons. They hatch paternless and stay patternless!
Can I just ask that the price not be discussed here. PM regarding that. Yes they are expensive but that is because there are only 16 of them in the world.
I have been arguing with three people via pm about this morph. If you have negative comments please do not post it here to spoil everyone else's fun. Keep them to yourself or pm me. Thanks.
Enjoy!

 

[nick_c]

I'd like to congratulate you actually. I think as long as they are healthy and genetically sound, all is a go. If they are to be continuously out-crossed and bred properly the future holds no bounds. I will definitely be getting my hands on this morph. They are stunning and congrats again!

 

[angie.h]

I also think that they are unique.....they don't look like a common leucistic to me. In 16 years of attending reptile shows I've never seen one like them...time will tell what comes from these bloodlines. Thanks for posting them.

 

[SouthernDragons]

Jacques,

I wanted to know how long have the Japanese been working with these "witblits" and are their patternless related to your animals?. I recall coming upon they're sites, and seeing these purple lavender patternless juveniles on their websites a few years back. I really like them, I already imagine solid red/yellow/orange animals.. Are there any other exciting morphs overseas that we have yet to see or hear about? (albino, piebald, dalmation, etc..)

Good luck

 

[spyder79]

The japanese line has been around a little longer than the witblits. The japanese line is called silverbacks. Josh has information on them.

 

[dragonluver83]

...

The right place to post glad i found it. Also glad it took some time to find/post it b-cuz if i posted last night after i was done reading this in the for sale section i probly would have said something that would have gotten me in trouble!!!
But the ignorance in that thread was overwhelming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Not only the insults of there dragon/price for the dragon, but also being *ignorant to the fact of, what did an old school bearded dragon look like??? Dont know??? i'll help you it was a ugly brown, beige what have you. If you dont know what i mean, pick up a book!!! What did the first hypos look like??? I dont think they were red and orange and citrus yellow, do you??? 5 years ago when the translucent gene was introduced to the states, what color were they???? Ugly brown dull yellow. There was no colored translucents, heck the gene itself was such a weak gene, most translucents couldnt be sold because they wouldn't even live that long!!! Or looked to healthy to sell...
My point being, there is more to work with then what you are looking at! for instance what if the dragon was red where its brown? all red, no markings on its face/body nothing? and it would still have that white lining the lower part of the face and sides.. how would that look?? what if it was a red translucent? all translucent even the face where its suppose to be white, and it has solid black eyes. What if it was a leatherback all orange and white lining. and so on..... There is soooooo much to work with and *some* of you are shooting it down without looking past what you see!!! And thats why some of you wont make it or put some awesome bloodlines together. This is not about putting two dragons in a cage and letting them breed. If it is to you then you probly buy your dragons from the flea market or pet store and that's ok. But this is about an enitre different morph and something new to work with.

I think its great! and i love it! cant wait to receive my first hets and full blooded witblit. I like them the way they are, but i am looking forward to doing much more with them.

Think about how much there gonna go for in the states and for how long... Its a recessive trait. its going to take awhile to get far with this animal (bloodline wise), and take awhile before they are being produced left and right. By the time the public can get there first one most breeders will be coming out with the hypos and the translucents and leatherback gene in the witblits. So how much will they cost and for how long??? Lets take it in and understand the gene before we start trashing it...

Plus lets not forget the grand its gonna cost to get the animal her. (export)

 

[spyder79]

never once seen a ugly dragon. The only people that see a low color dragon or "normal" dragon and think it is ugly are people that are only breeding for money. If you breed for cash and not for the strengthening of the lines of these animals then you dont have a place in the hobby. There are far to many people that see dragons and see dollar signs instead of pets.

Not to mention it is a matter of taste. I personally am not into the trans line or the leather line as in all honesty they are genetically inferior. I try to keep my mouth shut on topics like this but the practices that are behind getting some of these more "extreme" morphs are one of the things that are lowering the size, strength, and longevity of the captive bearded dragon outside of australia. The witblit is just another example of this in my opinion.

Now go ahead flame me and tell me how I do not know what I am talking about but everything I said above is true. Thanks yall have a great day and enjoy your discussion on this thread.

 

[chris allen]

Brian, I agree with you. Kind of sad to see things the way they are in the bearded "business" which used to be a great hobby.

I do think there is a lot of potential with this new morph, but I'm not certain how many people are looking to drop that kind of cash on a bearded dragon.

 

[dragonluver83]

never once seen a ugly dragon. The only people that see a low color dragon or "normal" dragon and think it is ugly are people that are only breeding for money. If you breed for cash and not for the strengthening of the lines of these animals then you dont have a place in the hobby. There are far to many people that see dragons and see dollar signs instead of pets.

Not to mention it is a matter of taste. I personally am not into the trans line or the leather line as in all honesty they are genetically inferior. I try to keep my mouth shut on topics like this but the practices that are behind getting some of these more "extreme" morphs are one of the things that are lowering the size, strength, and longevity of the captive bearded dragon outside of australia. The witblit is just another example of this in my opinion.

Now go ahead flame me and tell me how I do not know what I am talking about but everything I said above is true. Thanks yall have a great day and enjoy your discussion on this thread.

Pardon me before i get picked apart, not an ugly dragon. But a dragon that is not preferred to a highly colored dragon. I do believe some/most people/breeders are trying to achieve a dragon that has a higher color or a different morph. but as you can easily scan through the classified section and see yellows, oranges, reds, hypos, and translucents. But where are you normal (Inland or Coastal) bearded dragons that you love so much??? Nothing is wrong with the old school dragons. but thats just it. there referred to old school dragons. there not a desired dragon, compared to something with color. when you go to buy a car are you gonna pay the same price for two new cars but one is a 1988 and one is a 2000 model which one is going to be most likely picked or desired?

Brian, with all respect, you dollar sign theory *breeding for cash* is b.s. i wont bring no names in it and i will only use my self as a reference, but i breed high end animals, so your saying i am only seeing dollar signs??? i dont think that is true. I also think there are many others that have good prices on there animals.. and there are some that have animals from where they are 6 inches to 18 inches ready to breed because they want 2 grand for the darn thing. As a matter of fact i seen my "high end animals" go for cheaper than the normal colored dragons. and i seen other high end animals go for cheaper than "normal colored dragons"

And your size theory.... I do recall seeing Steven "Blood bank dragons" with a 600 gram translucent... Thats suppose to be one of the harder genes to work with... But there was nothing small or weak about that dragon.

you've been flamed.

Brian, I agree with you. Kind of sad to see things the way they are in the bearded "business" which used to be a great hobby.

I do think there is a lot of potential with this new morph, but I'm not certain how many people are looking to drop that kind of cash on a bearded dragon.

Chris when you say kinda sad meaning what? like seeing the older normal dragons being faded out of the picture???

 

[spyder79]

first off i was not directing my comment specifically at you though it seems you took it as such. I was making a broad statement. And your weight reference for a single dragon that bloodbank had is just my point. That is what the only one you have heard of that big. Years ago the average was 450-500grams and 20+ inches and it has slowly went further and further down to where now many people have full grown "healthy" adults that are 16 inches and in the 300 gram range. I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do. Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior. Your post was in no way a flame it just shows your difference of opinion. Goes back to a PM you and me exchanged where I said I never plan to breed trans or leathers and you said that you have to stay with the times. I personally think there will always be a place for large bodied nicely colored "normals" as they are called and the miniturized "designer morphs" will be the ones the eventually go back to taking the back burner.

 

[dragonluver83]

first off i was not directing my comment specifically at you though it seems you took it as such. I was making a broad statement. And your weight reference for a single dragon that bloodbank had is just my point. That is what the only one you have heard of that big. Years ago the average was 450-500grams and 20+ inches and it has slowly went further and further down to where now many people have full grown "healthy" adults that are 16 inches and in the 300 gram range. I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do. Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior. Your post was in no way a flame it just shows your difference of opinion. Goes back to a PM you and me exchanged where I said I never plan to breed trans or leathers and you said that you have to stay with the times. I personally think there will always be a place for large bodied nicely colored "normals" as they are called and the miniturized "designer morphs" will be the ones the eventually go back to taking the back burner.

Why would i not think you were directing towards me? you said.

"The only people that see a low color dragon or "normal" dragon and think it is ugly are people that are only breeding for money."

I was the one to call them ugly no one else. so thats exactly why i took it the way i did. i also breed "high end bearded dragons" you said high end dragon breeders only do it cause they see dollar signs. I among others dont see dollar signs cause if we did we wouldnt sell the animal for just under half of market value. *** when i say market value i mean what the big time breeders market there high end animals for.*** trying to clarify market value. its not like theres a book or something.

An personally I think it depends on the type of animals you breed. i have a "normal" dragon from 02' he eats great, healthy as a horse and is just at the 20 inch mark. and 400-420 grams... He is not a morph het for anything nothing!!! Just a inland bearded dragon. and he's not that big. So i think it depends on the bloodline your working with. Also if you breed smaller animals you will get smaller animals. if you breed bigger animals you get bigger animals.. animals meaning bearded dragons. and after breeding normals sandfires red gold what have you. i noticed that the smaller the breeders the smaller the babies... Also some clutches have baby dragons that get real big and some that dont get big at all. Commonly known as "runts"... So to say as the time goes on there getting smaller cause of the morphs is not really a fact or even a good point...
I also breed the belgium line of bearded dragons. Those animals are remarkable eaters and breeders. they lay alot of eggs and there not 24+ inches and 500+ grams. They are a shorter stocky animal that doenst get really long.
IMO I dont like big bearded dragons... Some want the really big sizable long german giants and what not. Me personally i like the "smaller sized dragons". They dont eat as much, they dont need the extra room. they dont leave a big mess like bigger dragons( poo ). PLus when you have a real long male and a shorter female how are you going to get them bred? or a short male and a long heavy wide female? Not going to be easy.

Its a unique theory about the old dragons coming back and the high end dragons going to a back burner. but the fact is your "normal" dragons almost dont exist anymore (which does kinda suck).. But everything is crossed to this and has this gene etc. Some have like 6 or more names because thats how many different genetics its bloodline carries. But as far as bringing back the "normals" i doubt it.

 

[chris allen]

It's hard to explain what I mean, lol. Its a feeling actually. Its just different than how it used to be. Its a different ball game now.

There is no doubt the quality of bearded dragon is different. Good and Bad.

 

[spyder79]

Why would i not think you were directing towards me? you said.

"The only people that see a low color dragon or "normal" dragon and think it is ugly are people that are only breeding for money."

I was the one to call them ugly no one else. so thats exactly why i took it the way i did. i also breed "high end bearded dragons" you said high end dragon breeders only do it cause they see dollar signs. I among others dont see dollar signs cause if we did we wouldnt sell the animal for just under half of market value. *** when i say market value i mean what the big time breeders market there high end animals for.*** trying to clarify market value. its not like theres a book or something.

An personally I think it depends on the type of animals you breed. i have a "normal" dragon from 02' he eats great, healthy as a horse and is just at the 20 inch mark. and 400-420 grams... He is not a morph het for anything nothing!!! Just a inland bearded dragon. and he's not that big. So i think it depends on the bloodline your working with. Also if you breed smaller animals you will get smaller animals. if you breed bigger animals you get bigger animals.. animals meaning bearded dragons. and after breeding normals sandfires red gold what have you. i noticed that the smaller the breeders the smaller the babies... Also some clutches have baby dragons that get real big and some that dont get big at all. Commonly known as "runts"... So to say as the time goes on there getting smaller cause of the morphs is not really a fact or even a good point...
I also breed the belgium line of bearded dragons. Those animals are remarkable eaters and breeders. they lay alot of eggs and there not 24+ inches and 500+ grams. They are a shorter stocky animal that doenst get really long.
IMO I dont like big bearded dragons... Some want the really big sizable long german giants and what not. Me personally i like the "smaller sized dragons". They dont eat as much, they dont need the extra room. they dont leave a big mess like bigger dragons( poo ). PLus when you have a real long male and a shorter female how are you going to get them bred? or a short male and a long heavy wide female? Not going to be easy.

Its a unique theory about the old dragons coming back and the high end dragons going to a back burner. but the fact is your "normal" dragons almost dont exist anymore (which does kinda suck).. But everything is crossed to this and has this gene etc. Some have like 6 or more names because thats how many different genetics its bloodline carries. But as far as bringing back the "normals" i doubt it.

you have your opinions and i have mine I see no reason to get into a arguement over it nor do i plan to entertain any arguements to that effect. I know what i meant by my post and you can take it however you want.

 

[dragonluver83]

"I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do.

i don know how to pull small quotes so this will have to do for now

I dont understand when you say " decided to purposely keep them alive" so to purposely keep them alive they would have to doing something extra to keep them healthy and thriving. Those animals are healthy and thriving all on there own, and did you see the breeders? normal plain jane dragons that look like they can be found in the wild, correct???

****"Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior."

What are you talking about??? So after they hatch how would nature kill them off? Like i said theres nothing more keeping them babies alive than any other baby in that clutch. There healthy thriving aniamls.

 

[dragonluver83]

you have your opinions and i have mine I see no reason to get into a arguement over it nor do i plan to entertain any arguements to that effect. I know what i meant by my post and you can take it however you want.

Dont take offense to it. this is a discussion forum and thats what were having. We can continue this in a pm if you'd like.

 

[spyder79]

"I do not think I have seen a single trans break into the 20" range as of yet and that is due to the translucent gene (just as this witblit/silverback gene and the leather gene) are actual genetic deformities that breeders have decided to purposely keep alive for reproduction cause it will make them a few extra bux. You know that as well as I do.

i don know how to pull small quotes so this will have to do for now

I dont understand when you say " decided to purposely keep them alive" so to purposely keep them alive they would have to doing something extra to keep them healthy and thriving. Those animals are healthy and thriving all on there own, and did you see the breeders? normal plain jane dragons that look like they can be found in the wild, correct???

****"Nature would not allow animals such as this to live, natural selection would kill them off soon after hatching because they are genetically inferior."

What are you talking about??? So after they hatch how would nature kill them off? Like i said theres nothing more keeping them babies alive than any other baby in that clutch. There healthy thriving aniamls.

perhaps they are thriving now. But when the translucent gene first popped up it was a severly deformed line. In nature animals like that would die off immediately due to not being able to hunt on their own due to a weakened state. Humans choice to try to keep the line going and succeeded but in the real world no they would have never taken hold. Because in nature only the strongest and healthiest survive and the translucent line and leather lines and these new witblits just arent that. its ashamed we dont have any aussie members chiming in here cause they could deffinantly comment on how these lines wont pop up in the wild populace because they are genetically inferior. I still dont understand why you are taking this so personally. I havent attacked you and there is no reason for your to be so defensive towards me. Honestly im done with this thread i do not have the time or energy to argue with you over my opinions.

 

[dragonluver83]

It's hard to explain what I mean, lol. Its a feeling actually. Its just different than how it used to be. Its a different ball game now.

There is no doubt the quality of bearded dragon is different. Good and Bad.

Being new to some things i was just wondering what was different. I didnt know what it used to be like.

Here's a question for you or for anyone else that can truthfully remember.. When translucent dragons were introduced to the states, do you remember what the cost of those guys were and what year they were being sold?

 

[spyder79]

Being new to some things i was just wondering what was different. I didnt know what it used to be like.

Here's a question for you or for anyone else that can truthfully remember.. When translucent dragons were introduced to the states, do you remember what the cost of those guys were and what year they were being sold?

they first popped up in the early 2000s Josh is a originator of the line here in the states and im sure they were well over a grand though i dont remember their prices. The originals of the line, however, were severely deformed and had extremely high infantile death rates.

 

[dragonluver83]

perhaps they are thriving now. But when the translucent gene first popped up it was a severly deformed line. In nature animals like that would die off immediately due to not being able to hunt on their own due to a weakened state. Humans choice to try to keep the line going and succeeded but in the real world no they would have never taken hold. Because in nature only the strongest and healthiest survive and the translucent line and leather lines and these new witblits just arent that. its ashamed we dont have any aussie members chiming in here cause they could deffinantly comment on how these lines wont pop up in the wild populace because they are genetically inferior. I still dont understand why you are taking this so personally. I havent attacked you and there is no reason for your to be so defensive towards me. Honestly im done with this thread i do not have the time or energy to argue with you over my opinions.

Still not arguing or really taking it so personal with you Brian. you seemed to have some other knowledge and i was interested in hearing it. But you are saying that all these genes are weak and bad or not stable. But you also say you dont have any of these lines. so without hands on experience how can you give an option like that? These are animals i have been working with for some time and i am just giving my option also, but its a hands on option. i am sorry if i upset, we have had pleasant convo in the past an hope to talk to you later...

 

[spyder79]

you are right i do not have hands on knowledge of these dragons because i chose not to. I do however know of their origins and remember when they hit the market (prior to being forsale).

oh and i did PM you some reading materials. may help clear things up.