WTH Rich!

[WebSlave]

Rich, I realize this thread is pretty antagonistic. That is why I asked if anybody contacted you about it. I hold no hard feelings against you, I was simply trying to inform you why I know the release of captive corn snakes is bad for local ecology, genetics, and the welfare of the animals themselves. I am actually a wildlife biologist getting my PhD at the University of Georgia. I understand the impacts of the reptile trade better than most.

I am relieved that you have sold all your animals instead of releasing all of them. Thank you for doing that. While I really can't approve that you released some animals into the wild for a variety of reasons, I understand you did it because you felt you were doing the right thing. However, euthanasia is sometimes necessary. In the future, if you or any of your friends consider releasing captive animals, please contact the Florida Fish and Wildlife Commission. They are known for being level headed and helpful, and they can certainly provide you with facts that you may not accept from an moderately anonymous online person such as myself.

I apologize for the lack of professionalism in this thread. However, the reptile community in general is defensive right now and rightly so. If you ever get into reptiles again, please know that there are a few people who can look at a situation objectively and give you sound advice.

Thank you. Honestly, I would like to hear the facts and see the evidence you have that proves what I have highlighted above. So far, no one has been able to provide that, so rather then have this all based on speculation and guesswork, please help us all out by detailing some FACTS about this matter. Personally, I would really like to see it.

 

[snowgyre]

I don't have access to full scientific journal articles without being at the UGA campus, but here are several peer-reviewed, published abstracts that are of note.

Professional worries about genetic integrity of captive breeding/release of endangered species (note particularly the concern over preventing the expression of potentially deleterious, non-adaptive phenotypes [such as albinism, leucism, and other common 'morphs' that can increase depredation rates on local populations]). While corn snakes are not endangered, the concerns over genetics are the same.

Rapid loss of genetic variation in large captive populations of Drosophila flies: implications for the genetic management of captive populations. This shows that captive populations of organisms often do not have as diverse genotypes as their phenotypic variability may lead us to believe. In terms of corn snake releases, we could be hurting local corn snake genetics by releasing captive animals.

Giant Galápagos tortoises; molecular genetic analyses identify a trans-island hybrid in a repatriation program of an endangered taxon. Several individuals of a highly endangered species had to be removed because of a single genetic contamination event. Although corn snakes as a species are not endangered, this shows that subspecies can be severely compromised by a single release event.

Summary of amphibians and reptiles introduced into Colorado. I wish I had access to the full article here because it seems like a fascinating read, but you can see there are a number of citations about genetic contamination in the introduction, so this has been a topic of considerable thought in the scientific community for a while.

These are merely a few examples that I found with a 5 minute search on Google Scholar. The information is there for anyone to peruse and makes for very interesting reads. However, the consensus among the scientific community is that introductions of captive animals, even when necessary as with endangered species, can have profound negativity implications on genetic integrity.

 

[snowgyre]

Please note that the bold type above are links. You can click them to see the abstracts, although you have to go to a college campus that pays for journal fees to have access to the full articles.

 

[norsmis]

Just out of curiosity, who is it that is trying to make this molehill into a mountain which will then be much more likely to catch the attention of HSUS, etc? Quite frankly, those forces could care less about the releasing of corns in their native habitat. It's not an argument they could really ever win any PR points over. It will have no front page appeal to anyone. It is YOU who is trying hard to give them the ammunition they need by making your opinion appear to be some sort of majority consensus and a rallying point. Look at some of the posts here and see what I mean.

So yeah, go ahead and make this into the mountain that avalanches down on YOUR head. If that is what you want to do, then by all means do so.

As for my losing some respect because I did what I felt was best for those animals I had in my care, I guess that's the way it is. There will always be opinions to the contrary about everything I do, no matter what it is. Imagine the shock and dismay from some factions had I stated that I threw every snake that seemed to be unhappy with being in captivity into the freezer. Then had I taken some animals to shows and given them away, people would be bitching that I was crashing the market by doing that, since the people who took those freebies might not buy an animal from THEM as a result.

Actually at one time I used to take problem feeder corns to shows and sold them dirt cheap, marking them as such so people knew what they were getting into. And you know what happened? Some unscrupulous dealers at those shows would buy them and put them out on their own tables marked up in price and marked as "newly hatched" to unsuspecting buyers. So was that a GOOD alternative for me to do with those problem feeder corns? I didn't believe so, so I stopped that practice once I determined it was going on.

I really don't have any interest in trying to make any effort to try to please everyone with what I do. I will do what I feel is best, regardless of the fact that it might piss off some and lose me someone's respect in the process. That has always been par for this course.

Rich you will do what you want, I have no illusions that my input will change your mind about it. Hell thats what makes this country great; we all have the freedom to do what we want. I jsut dont understand the point of POSTING it on an open forum.
And yes, I am denouncing what you did loudly and clearly for everyone to see. Why bring attention to it? Because I am sure if I found the post, you can bet your behind the people who want to shut this hobby/industry down are looking for just this type of info to make "examples" of. I want them to understand this is not common practice for EVERYONE who breeds snakes to release them into the wild if they dont make good captives.
Do you think the HSUS and PETA types will explain to the general public that you released corn snakes into their native ranges? I would bet my retirement they wouldnt. It more likely come out that one of the biggest snake breeders in the country is releasing snakes in Florida which is causing more and more damage to the fragile ecosystem there.
Again, I understand my opinion means absolutely nothing to you. But do us, the ones still in this hobby/industry, a favor and stop posting threads about you releasing them. Whether you want to admit it or not, it can come back to bite us all in butt sooner or later.....

 

[Helenthereef]

Captive native vs captive exotics

From an ecological standpoint it's surely a different thing to release a native species (in this case Cornsnakes) than to release an exotic (e.g Burmese Pythons).

From a political standpoint in light of the current constrictor-keeping furore based in Florida, it may be unwise to add fuel to the fire of obviously non-discriminating legislators.

 

[Twizted Paths]

No it's called making an example out of someone who should have known better.....I don't think we as an a reptile community should be viewed as people who just sweep stuff like this under the rug....

There should be post here from everyone that reads this thread stating how they disapprove of Rich's doings

EVERYONE needs to step up and let Rich and people know this is unacceptable?

Unless we stand together and let people know we WILL NOT tolerate this type of behavior, we are going to lose our right to keep any kind of snake.

People need to step up and let Rich now this is unacceptable.

I am bringing it to light here so people know that there are some of us out there who will not tolerate this type of careless behavior. There are some of us in this hobby who will call people out for doing stupid things no matter who they are.

I don't care that it was Rich that did it anymore then if it was some kid across the street from me. I care that my damn boas are on the chopping block and We are giving Bad press to Ourselves.

There Already was a place this was being addressed in full and enough bloody official attention was already on it.

He is OUT of the business and has NO MORE snakes. This thread doesn't affect him At All. It does bring more negative scrutiny down on us when we Least need it though.

 

[R. Eventide]

From an ecological standpoint it's surely a different thing to release a native species (in this case Cornsnakes) than to release an exotic (e.g Burmese Pythons).

Not necessarily. Desert tortoises are native to where I live, but it is illegal to release ANY desert tortoises into the wild, whether they were captive-bred or wild-caught. The reason is because there is a respiratory infection that occurs in captivity that could spread to the wild population and possibly decimate it. No, there may not be any dangers to wild populations of corn snakes by releasing captive corn snakes, but I wouldn't want to take that risk.

Yes, I realize Rich has sold all his snakes and this isn't an issue for him anymore. However, people need to be aware that releasing captive animals into the environment--whether they're native to the area or not--is irresponsible at best.

 

[snowgyre]

Yes, I realize Rich has sold all his snakes and this isn't an issue for him anymore. However, people need to be aware that releasing captive animals into the environment--whether they're native to the area or not--is irresponsible at best.

I agree. For every person we have willing to admit they have released "native" captive animals into the environment, there are probably a few more contemplating it. To me, it was an honest question as to how releasing a native species could be damaging in any way. That is why I provided evidence why this is a bad idea.

I really wish people weren't so eager to lunge for the jugular in chats like this. So much angst could be avoided and we could more easily fulfill our true task as a forum: education.

 

[Twizted Paths]

I really wish people weren't so eager to lunge for the jugular in chats like this. So much angst could be avoided and we could more easily fulfill our true task as a forum: education.

Exactly.

If this had been an educational discussion then it would have been great. Instead, all I see it being is spreading a pointless at best, self harming at worst fight from one forum to another.

 

[norsmis]

Exactly.

If this had been an educational discussion then it would have been great. Instead, all I see it being is spreading a pointless at best, self harming at worst fight from one forum to another.

Then you have blinders on.....

 

[deborahbroadus]

Then you have blinders on.....

There are no "blinders" on the people that are attempting to be reasonable that I can see. However, those spreading this information from forum to forum seem to not realize that:

1. This information is after the fact.
2. Nothing that is posted will alter events that have already happened.
3. Rich has NO MORE ANIMALS.
4. This post does not hurt him in the least


Who has the blinders??

 

[Twizted Paths]

Then you have blinders on.....

I am not blinded by my own inflated sense of self righteousness, nor do I allow myself to be herded by a mob mentality.

 

[norsmis]

There are no "blinders" on the people that are attempting to be reasonable that I can see. However, those spreading this information from forum to forum seem to not realize that:

1. This information is after the fact.
2. Nothing that is posted will alter events that have already happened.
3. Rich has NO MORE ANIMALS.
4. This post does not hurt him in the least


Who has the blinders??

Which is my point exactly. Do you still have animals? Would you like to keep them? Maybe you have heard about this little thing going on called S373?
You people need to wake up if you see nothing wrong with this....

 

[norsmis]

I am not blinded by my own inflated sense of self righteousness, nor do I allow myself to be herded by a mob mentality.

Inflated sense of self righteousness??? Maybe you should talk to Rich about that.
Mob mentality? Maybe so. When the hobby I am passionate about is under fire and people do stupid stuff like I rally the troops.... Sorry if that bothers your sense of peace....

 

[bcherps]

Hey All,

Since this is after the fact, and never happened I will only add a portion of my opinion. I am going to skip the basic ecological problems (captive health, strengthened bacteria/fungi/viruses, inbred genetic issues, and habitat selection of corns from miami versus okeetee being released in tallahassee). We seemed to hint on some of them.

I am also going to skip the why not give it away aspect. Sometimes(usually early morning before coffee) due to the world treading on me I feel propelled not to help others.

But do you know what would most likely happen in tallahassee. Once the corns ate the local population of rodents they would start to dispurse and abruptly get run over, beaten with sticks by children- minorities- rednecks-and old northerns.


Yes, I do not agree with the idea of letting stuff go in any fashion-captive-exotic,domestic-even most peoples kids should be kept on leashes in my opinion.

However, no pet reptile we could ever release would be as harmful to the environment as asphalt paving.

The Corp of Engineers assaulted the everglades for decades and although dramatically changed some life form flourished, we have a pretty good population of iguanas in south florida but groomed azealas in cul de sacs are not in any way going to be extinct, we have had a burm problem for a decade and all I have seen them do is clean up the feral cat problem in the areas they reside. But do this for me, go out into the middle of a Wal-mart parking lot, look down and see how much flora and fauna there is there (no smart ass comments about billions of microscopic organisms!!!!).

Thanks
ben

 

[Twizted Paths]

Inflated sense of self righteousness??? Maybe you should talk to Rich about that.
Mob mentality? Maybe so. When the hobby I am passionate about is under fire and people do stupid stuff like I rally the troops.... Sorry if that bothers your sense of peace....

I merely said what I wasn't, sweetie plum. You're choosing to get your knickers in an even tighter bunch.

This kind of mindless over emoting & senseless spewing strongly reminds me of peta and hsus propaganda and seeing people in my hobby acting in the same fashion does indeed disturb my peace.

Why don't you try going back & actually reading the words I've been typing with some vague sort of objectivity instead of merely quoting them.

Here, I'll summarize for you ~ Two wrongs do not make a right.

No matter how well intended the wrongs may be.

snowgyre ~

Thank you for the abstracts.

bcherps ~

You're too right. I don't even have to go to wal mart, they decided since a portion of our metroparks here was so popular they should pave it over so more people could enjoy what is now a parking lot.

 

[WebSlave]

Inflated sense of self righteousness??? Maybe you should talk to Rich about that.
Mob mentality? Maybe so. When the hobby I am passionate about is under fire and people do stupid stuff like I rally the troops.... Sorry if that bothers your sense of peace....

Sheesh, Hey kettle! You are black!

So just who the hell do you think YOU are bub? You got some sort of cornered market on absolute truths or something? You got some sort of PROOF that releasing corn snakes in their native range will be detrimental to ANYTHING at all? Do you have any FACTS at all to support what to me looks merely as some knee jerk emotional ranting and raving from some eco-fanatic? Quite frankly, I HAVE thought of all the issues and did as much research as practical and in MY OPINION, nothing I did was damaging, nor was likely to be damaging to anything nor anyone at all. Except maybe the local population of prey might not be too happy, but I'm sure that will be balanced out by the predators higher on the food chain, so it pretty much evens out in the big picture. YOU, however, merely have an opposing opinion, not some word of God on your side, so cut the blathering accusations and derogatory innuendos. Or else show me some PROOF that you are basing your argument on instead of just saying you HAVE to be right and I HAVE to be wrong, all the while waving your arms about looking like a damned fool.

I got news for you fella, HSUS, PETA, SPCA, and the like don't want anyone to have animals at all, period. It makes no difference what you do with them or how they treat them. So if you would rather make a mountain out of a molehill and further divide everyone with your baseless blathering, then you just go ahead and do that. If anything, you are helping to show to those forces how easily this industry can be divided and conquered by simply pulling their strings with emotional issues to get some chicken littles to do all the ground work for them.

So can it bub. If you think I am going to allow you to use my own site so you can take antagonistic potshots at me, you're a LONG way from reality.

 

[norsmis]

Sheesh, Hey kettle! You are black!

So just who the hell do you think YOU are bub? You got some sort of cornered market on absolute truths or something? You got some sort of PROOF that releasing corn snakes in their native range will be detrimental to ANYTHING at all? Do you have any FACTS at all to support what to me looks merely as some knee jerk emotional ranting and raving from some eco-fanatic? Quite frankly, I HAVE thought of all the issues and did as much research as practical and in MY OPINION, nothing I did was damaging, nor was likely to be damaging to anything nor anyone at all. Except maybe the local population of prey might not be too happy, but I'm sure that will be balanced out by the predators higher on the food chain, so it pretty much evens out in the big picture. YOU, however, merely have an opposing opinion, not some word of God on your side, so cut the blathering accusations and derogatory innuendos. Or else show me some PROOF that you are basing your argument on instead of just saying you HAVE to be right and I HAVE to be wrong, all the while waving your arms about looking like a damned fool.

I got news for you fella, HSUS, PETA, SPCA, and the like don't want anyone to have animals at all, period. It makes no difference what you do with them or how they treat them. So if you would rather make a mountain out of a molehill and further divide everyone with your baseless blathering, then you just go ahead and do that. If anything, you are helping to show to those forces how easily this industry can be divided and conquered by simply pulling their strings with emotional issues to get some chicken littles to do all the ground work for them.

So can it bub. If you think I am going to allow you to use my own site so you can take antagonistic potshots at me, you're a LONG way from reality.

What I expected from you Rich. You want to ban me because I have an opposing opinion, go ahead.

 

[norsmis]

I got news for you fella, HSUS, PETA, SPCA, and the like don't want anyone to have animals at all, period. It makes no difference what you do with them or how they treat them. So if you would rather make a mountain out of a molehill and further divide everyone with your baseless blathering, then you just go ahead and do that. If anything, you are helping to show to those forces how easily this industry can be divided and conquered by simply pulling their strings with emotional issues to get some chicken littles to do all the ground work for them.

Which is my problem with what you did. Gives them more fuel for the fire.

How am I dividing anyone? Because I said you were wrong for doing it and POSTING it????? If you were some Joe Schmo who let go a few corn snakes it wouldnt be a big deal at all.
I am not going to beat my head against the wall over this. Whats done is done and you obviously see nothing wrong with it. Enjoy your retirement.

 

[WebSlave]

What I expected from you Rich. You want to ban me because I have an opposing opinion, go ahead.

No, I will ban you if you continue to be an antagonistic asshole on my site. I really don't care about baseless, factless and emotionally grounded opinions. Heck, I will still entertain them as long as people can discuss them like rational adults. But for those people who will use such disagreements as an excuse to "get even" because of some apparent slight in the past, or just simple blatant jealousy because of my success in this field and recent retirement, well screw them. They aren't using my sites as a platform for their verbal sludge.