You partner looking at the opposite sex??

[A_Kendergirl]

You can find studies to support nearly any view that you choose to take. I'm not about to spend my day looking for it, because in the end you will still find porn to be the downfall of America, and I will still find porn ok so long as it's not in excess.

For you, it may feel it's equivalent to letting another woman into bed with us, for me, it's not even close. Trying to explain to you why I feel that way would be about as useful as banging my head into the wall.

My part in this conversation is at an end. Don't kid yourself that I "skipped over" your post...I read every word, thought about them, and disagree with them being used as a generalisation (they do apply to a small number of people). I just know well enough that nothing I say would change your mind.

To everyone in general: Set the boundaries that are OK for you and your life and stick to them. Don't be a sheep, control your own life. I think as herpers, we all have a general understanding of what it's like to follow your own path.

 

[handsomeRob]

Why would we allow that into our household? because we are human and some of us want to. a lot of us smoke regardless of the risks to our health. however, how about we all just make Griz here happy? lets just get rid of all porn and give him his utopian world.

 

[nicolai]

Kudos to you for knowing that not everyone feels the same.

I will second that!!!!


I think I am going to go rent a movie!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Griz]

I am all for each and every one of us being able to live our own lives. That is what makes this country so great and I, just like numerous other people on here would do, would die for that right.

Unfortunately, those same rights sometimes goes against what I believe to be morally wrong and out right dangerous. Does that mean that I would dare press those views upon you so that you have no choice but to live by my views? No, not in a million years.

However, my postings were intended to be more thought provoking in nature. I know that none of you will take the time to actually look at the statistics as that would require work and you are not to that point yet. At some point, pornography is going to hit home with you in a very hard way and at that point in time you might just have the inkling to educate yourself. My personal preference is to educate myself BEFORE I fall into dangerous situations but then again, to each his/her own.

Come back and read this thread in a few months and see if you have a different take on it. The fact remains is that your points are very hypocritical in nature and completely uneducated. I do not mean that as a slight. It's simply an observation.

Griz

 

[handsomeRob]

griz, not everybody bases their beliefs on facts. there are many of us that deal in opinion alone. grits taste like watered down cornbread. there that was my opinion. you and others may think theyre delicious. does that make me a hypocrite because i made a decision based on my opinion and not statistical fact? no it doesnt. drugs. drugs are bad (mmkay) and i dont do them. however if other people want to fine by me. as far as the come back in a few months and see if what you say is true well let me say someone was saying exactly the same thing you are now about 20 years ago and it hasnt changed my views so far. oh well time to go to work.

 

[Griz]

griz, not everybody bases their beliefs on facts. there are many of us that deal in opinion alone. grits taste like watered down cornbread. there that was my opinion. you and others may think theyre delicious. does that make me a hypocrite because i made a decision based on my opinion and not statistical fact? no it doesnt. drugs. drugs are bad (mmkay) and i dont do them. however if other people want to fine by me. as far as the come back in a few months and see if what you say is true well let me say someone was saying exactly the same thing you are now about 20 years ago and it hasnt changed my views so far. oh well time to go to work.

Rob, you have proven my point exactly. What good is an opinion when there is no merit to it's foundation? None, that's my point.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

However, my postings were intended to be more thought provoking in nature. .
Griz

Thought and open debate is what makes each of us strong, and I would hope that each of you will feel free to continue to post your opinions in a mature and non abusive manner.

I have already said that I do not, personally, look at porn. However, I feel that morality in thought and speech should not in general be legislated, and that the choices are up to the individual.

These sorts of debates allow each of us to examine, or re examine, what is important in our lives and for this reason alone, the well thought out posts in this thread are valuable to all who read them.

 

[Griz]

Thought and open debate is what makes each of us strong, and I would hope that each of you will feel free to continue to post your opinions in a mature and non abusive manner.

I have already said that I do not, personally, look at porn. However, I feel that morality in thought and speech should not in general be legislated, and that the choices are up to the individual.

These sorts of debates allow each of us to examine, or re examine, what is important in our lives and for this reason alone, the well thought out posts in this thread are valuable to all who read them.

Let me add one brief comment to this. I do not want anyone here to think I am sitting back in my cushioned office chair and judging you. Truth be told, when I assess who I call friends and who I do not, there is a lot more to a decision then this one simple subject. I respect most all of you for various reasons, most of which is due to the input you have made on so many posts in years past.

I do not want anyone to walk away from this thread thinking that Griz, he's such a such and such. I believe pornography is wrong and that it ruins lives. Plain and simple. You guys obviously have other feelings towards this. What I want is for each of you to intellectually think through the pornography issue, study the statistics, and it is my hope that you will come away rather perplexed at how large of an issue it really is.

Shanti enjoys some porn in her life. So be it. But, it's the pathway that pornography leads us down and the millions of lives it has affected that I want you to be aware of. Do not stick your head in the sand or simply walk away from the thread because you feel like your points are not getting through. I am hearing your points but they are emotional points not logical one's.

Anyways, if nothing else, I hope this has led to some additional insights.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

I do not want anyone to walk away from this thread thinking that Griz, he's such a such and such. I believe pornography is wrong and that it ruins lives. Plain and simple. You guys obviously have other feelings towards this. What I want is for each of you to intellectually think through the pornography issue, study the statistics, and it is my hope that you will come away rather perplexed at how large of an issue it really is.

Anyways, if nothing else, I hope this has led to some additional insights.

Griz

Griz,

I hope also, as I have taken time to consider your thoughts, that you have taken time to consider mine. While legislating actions are one thing, one point I have tried to bring forth in all this is that in speech and thought, choice can be more appropriate than legislation;
and in fact, in my opinion, a studied choice creates people who are stronger than those who obey by rote.

There will always be temptation. There will always be right and wrong. And the line between right and wrong is often not easy to determine.
The easy way to deal with hard choices is to cover them up, throw a tablecloth over them and pretend they are not there. By not facing our difficult choices, we prevent the opportunity for growth.
Thought and choice, either way one decides, that is the way to go, in my opinion.

 

[Griz]

Lucille, don't ever let it be said that I do not appreciate who you are. I do. While I will vehemently disagree with certain decisions, where minors are brought in, I do respect you and most of your decisions. Always have.

Griz

 

[A_Kendergirl]

Let me add one brief comment to this. I do not want anyone here to think I am sitting back in my cushioned office chair and judging you. Truth be told, when I assess who I call friends and who I do not, there is a lot more to a decision then this one simple subject. I respect most all of you for various reasons, most of which is due to the input you have made on so many posts in years past.

I do not want anyone to walk away from this thread thinking that Griz, he's such a such and such. I believe pornography is wrong and that it ruins lives. Plain and simple. You guys obviously have other feelings towards this. What I want is for each of you to intellectually think through the pornography issue, study the statistics, and it is my hope that you will come away rather perplexed at how large of an issue it really is.

Shanti enjoys some porn in her life. So be it. But, it's the pathway that pornography leads us down and the millions of lives it has affected that I want you to be aware of. Do not stick your head in the sand or simply walk away from the thread because you feel like your points are not getting through. I am hearing your points but they are emotional points not logical one's.

Anyways, if nothing else, I hope this has led to some additional insights.

Griz

LOL Running myself into brick walls is an activity I avoid. I know there are people out there that hear and agree with my side, just as there are people that agree with you.

Nothing in my point of view of porn has changed in at least 10 years. I'm not going to suddenly change it one morning 6 months from now.

Sometimes the way you feel is more important than what logic and "fact" say. Had I followed logic, and not my heart, I likely never would have even dated my husband (long story there) - and that's not a decision I would take back for the world.

I, myself, am a rather complicated person...I can't even figure myself out sometimes...mostly because I don't always follow the logical path (but sometimes I do). I met and dated my husband online - but I caution other who are thinking of doing the same. I have only "been" with my husband, where as he and many of my friends have been around the block more times than they can count, and I don't think any less of them. I don't drink (not only because I'm currently pregnant) because it makes me sick (literally); when I was able to drink and not get sick I RARELY did it because I didn't like to feel "different"...but again I have no problems with anyone that does. I watch porn about as often as I drink, it's rare and I find enjoyment in it, but it's down right dull to see it all the time. I've never once smoked, or done any sort of drug - for very similar reasons that you have...but many people I know have done them in the past and they are still my friends (I tend not to hang out with those that are currently involved with either on a regular basis). In short, the reasons I do or don't do something are very personal choices (and rarely, if ever, because some study says it's bad), and I don't begrudge others that same choice.

We're not so different Griz, just our paths and reasons. Both are valid. It's just a bit insulting to say age and lack of knowledge have anything to do with how I feel. I'm sure that the way you feel is how you've felt for years, why would it be any different for me? Because I haven't been around as long? These choices I made for my life were done YEARS ago, so long ago I can't even recall when (and if) I ever felt differently. While a lot of people don't know who they are and run around lost for their teens and a lot of their twenties, I was never that person. I do see a disturbing trend in my views of teenagers...when the heck did they get so young and annoying? So in away I do know where you're coming from there.....doesn't mean I like it any better.

 

[ZX11]

I never said I agree it is ok, nor did I agree it is the downfall of America.

The fact is Porn is out there, it is mainstream and all that choose to veiw aren't deviants, not all deviants veiw it.

It is a personal choice, one that I say is ok, if all involved say its ok.

This thread was started because two people in a relationship agree it is NOT ok, yet, one still does.

In this case, no it is not ok.

The wife, in this case, has no appreciation for this material , the husband does. Each has their own reason for their veiws { we all have for ours here }, but the bottom line is that porn was not permitted.

So, are we really here to debate porn and the industry that did NOT push its way into the home, or whether or not the husband is justified in bringing it into the home?

If, as agreed, it is not allowed, then there was no justification. Period. Violating the agreement is a violation of trust. I am not saying he is a bad guy, he just did the wrong thing.

Rapist, child molesters, murders and the like were all around long before any type of media, porn included. Every country has had their share of each and every country became what it is today despite of having these people. Just because it is mainstreamed today doesn't mean all of the countries are going to collasp and sink into the bowels of earth.

There are two paths for each of us. The rightous and the unrightous.

If we don't want our kids in the sex industry, the education is in our hands. The decision is in theirs.

Movie producers make two kinds of programs. They leave the choice in our hands.

It is not my call to tell folks what to watch or judge them by their choice. To each his own.

 

[Griz]

Shanti, my age comment was not meant to be a negative. Most of us were 26 at some point and I can tell you that I am a far wiser man now then when I was 26. With age comes wisdom but you also get those darn gray hairs! However, that wisdom allows you to see things in a different light.

You guys choose not to stand up for or against pornography. Rather, you feel that if it's between consenting adults (so long as it's does not involve your own children) then it's ok.

I see the worlds problems as having too many people who are not willing to make a stand for wrong and right. With regards to pornography, I have drawn my line in the sand and will not cross that. I know first hand what it can and does do to men especially. I have witnessed friends who were driven to some very dark places due to the intoxicating flavors that pornography allures you with. People can make the comments that it does not affect their lives but they are fooling no one.

At some point, people have to stand for what is right and wrong in this world. I cannot stand complancency and I, for one, will stand for what I believe is right.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

Lucille, don't ever let it be said that I do not appreciate who you are. I do. While I will vehemently disagree with certain decisions, where minors are brought in, I do respect you and most of your decisions. Always have.

Griz

Thank you. However, and this is no criticism of you at all, I think you do not realize how studied and thought through some of those decisions are. To me, life is a bundle of competing rights, and I place minors in very high regard. Yet freedom of thought, and of speech, is also central not only to our American way of life but to the very foundation of the Christian ethic. Choice is central.
The courts, with some great minds pondering just these choices, have decided that access to children of internet use is incumbent by parents, and the ideas of whatever nature brought forthwith from the internet should not be reduced to the level of play in a sandbox because children exist.
I say that if you value the family, if you value freedom of thought, if you value your right to think, you must not yield these to legislated rules and must instead shoulder personal responsibility.
I took good care when my children were wee ones to carefully monitor what they saw and read. I found unfortunate surprises in my life; I walked in one day and saw what one of my sons was watching on cable, and he was older then, but I physically ripped the entire cable out of my home and it has not been back since.
I had an unfortunate experience with a church official sent to guard my family, so unfortunate it cannot be repeated here but the safety of myself and my family remained uncompromised because I would not permit his actions.
I think that parents must look to the safety of their children everywhere and not be lulled by the fact that a certain site, a certain official, a certain person is involved. Parents must be vigilant, always.
I have not watched more that an hour or two of TV a year for many years: America lets the TV babysit their children and I personally think that reading, interaction, and doing things together are more the way to go. There MUST be more parental responsibility than there is in some cases, now.
Griz, do not trivialize this responsibility with sleight of words, it is too important: there must be diversity of ideas, and choice; and there must be safety for children through parental involvement. Neither should be legislated away, Griz, we will give away our heritage as human beings should we give up either our ideas or our children.

 

[Griz]

Understood, but Lucille, you ripped the cable box out of your house, why? To protect your children. That is exactly the reason why I do not have television in my house. It's the exact reason why we home school our children. They are too important to take lightly.

But, this site is a private institution and therefore it is a dictatorship by it's very definition. I do not view that as a negative thing either. However, with said dictatorship comes certain responsibilities. You and I both know that we cannot rely on all parents to do the right thing. So, when there is the opportunity to use your magic wand to ensure that a certain deviant posting is not seen, then I think it is your obligation to do just that.

Trust me Lucille, I do not for one moment believe that I can right all of the wrongs out there. But, there are opportunities in which I can make a difference and God forbid if I pass one by. You have already deleted one "under 18" posting on this particular thread alone thereby reinforcing the fact that children do view this forum. That is one reason why my words have been as strong as they are. My hope is that since the thread remained that therefore my words would too and that might just make a difference to the under 18 reader.

You and I both understand the magnitude of what lays in front of parents these days and there is no place for complacency. We should act when the need arises and I still feel that you failed in that responsibility. But, it was not my call to make, now was it?

I will not shelter my children from what reality is. After all, they will be living in it all too soon. However, when I know that the likelihood of parental involvement will be non-existent, I will react in a manner that will rid that problem of the opportunity to present itself. And that was my goal in that particular situation.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

I think you have not read my post Griz. I will respond, at some future time, when the impact of what I have written has had time to be appreciated. I think there is a balance here, and you do not understand what I have written on the primacy of choice.
I ask that you wait to respond. These concepts are too important for sleight of words or for any heat of escalation. It is worth the time to wait, sometimes rereading and reflection will bring new facets forth that were not previously appreciated.
I too, will reread your posts.

 

[Griz]

Lucille, I knew your stance even before the thread in question arose. I have long studied (for lack of a better word) your postings and I believe I know how your thought processes work. I have always admired that. Trust me, your posting above was not lost on me.

Griz

 

[Lucille]

By implying that I have in any way not weighed the rights of children, you misunderstand my analysis.

On a lighter note, you may be one of the few extant that will seriously say they understand the thought processes of a woman...

We will talk more, later. I find that even when we have differences, we have respect for one another. If all the disagreements on this board could be met with such thought and quiet dignity, it would be a better place.

 

[Griz]

By implying that I have in any way not weighed the rights of children, you misunderstand my analysis.

That's where the misunderstanding is taking place. I would never do you the disservice or insult of implying that you would not weigh the rights of the children. I think too highly of you to ever imply that.

However, where I think we differ is the weight in which we assign to those children vs the right of freedom of speech. I would rather err on the side of caution knowing full well I might be trampling on the 1st for that particular individual.

Griz

 

[shrap]

Well to answers Nicolai's original question.... Relationships are all about trust and honesty. If you don't trust one another then you have no business being in a relationship with each other. You are just going to make each other miserable and you will never truly be happy.

So with that being said..... My girlfriend and I do not get upset about each other taking a peak at another person when we are out. In fact we joke about it. If she busts me taking a long look she often just says, "you wish buddy" or "in your dreams", while giving me a playful elbow in the ribs and we laugh about it. I do the same with her when I catch her doing it. I am not worried about her cheating on me or her worried about me cheating on her, if we were we would not be in a relationship with each other.