Bad Guy Yvonne Carpenter - Boas By Satyra

[reticguy76]

one needs to think of ibd like aids or parvovirus in dogs. it works like a virus. when a person has aids or a dog has parvo, they dont die of that disease, they die from secondary diseases (ie, pneumonia, other infectious diseases) because the primary disease (parvo, aids, ibd, feline leukemia, etc), depletes the immune system, and they die of secondary infections and such. once there is exposure of any kind, the existing "healthy" animals are at risk. not enough is known about ibd for any veterinary professional, including myself, to say it can only be spred through fluids, or from handling, or from the respiratory tract. the fact is, ibd is still being researched. its not even fully known how it is acquired (ie, from mites, certain species, etc)

 

[sally-dog]

one needs to think of ibd like aids or parvovirus in dogs. it works like a virus. when a person has aids or a dog has parvo, they dont die of that disease, they die from secondary diseases (ie, pneumonia, other infectious diseases) because the primary disease (parvo, aids, ibd, feline leukemia, etc), depletes the immune system, and they die of secondary infections and such. once there is exposure of any kind, the existing "healthy" animals are at risk. not enough is known about ibd for any veterinary professional, including myself, to say it can only be spred through fluids, or from handling, or from the respiratory tract. the fact is, ibd is still being researched. its not even fully known how it is acquired (ie, from mites, certain species, etc)

Right, but would you, knowing you had snake die from what is highly suspected to be IBD, start buying animals? Selling them? Breeding them?

 

[reticguy76]

oh, absouletly not. if i even slightly suspected ibd in a snake i obtained, i would take it to my work, throw an ultrasound on it and get liver aspirates, and send it out to a reptile laboratory veterinarian. what people dont realize is that ibd is non-specific disease. basically, when you look at a slide of organ and/or blood cells, inclusion body cells are cells (so to speak), that are abnormal and that are not able to be identified as a specific cell. if you look at reptile medicine books and publised papers, you can see that ibd has been tentatively diagnosed in many animals, and not every "ibd positive" animal has identical "ibd cells". at this time, its a non-specific disease. if you look at a blood smear of an hiv patient, those inclusion or infectious cells have a specific size, shape, color, number of cells, etc.

all that being said, if i obtained a snake, and it had "ibd like symptoms and died, that is highly suspect to me. once an infected (or potentially infected) animal is introduced into a home or facility, the resident snakes (boas and pythons, and i believe they think kingsnakes may be at risk also for ibd), all become at risk.

 

[sally-dog]

oh, absouletly not. if i even slightly suspected ibd in a snake i obtained, i would take it to my work, throw an ultrasound on it and get liver aspirates, and send it out to a reptile laboratory veterinarian. what people dont realize is that ibd is non-specific disease. basically, when you look at a slide of organ and/or blood cells, inclusion body cells are cells (so to speak), that are abnormal and that are not able to be identified as a specific cell. if you look at reptile medicine books and publised papers, you can see that ibd has been tentatively diagnosed in many animals, and not every "ibd positive" animal has identical "ibd cells". at this time, its a non-specific disease. if you look at a blood smear of an hiv patient, those inclusion or infectious cells have a specific size, shape, color, number of cells, etc.

all that being said, if i obtained a snake, and it had "ibd like symptoms and died, that is highly suspect to me. once an infected (or potentially infected) animal is introduced into a home or facility, the resident snakes (boas and pythons, and i believe they think kingsnakes may be at risk also for ibd), all become at risk.

Thanks for that info.

 

[reticguy76]

it will be so helpful and relieving, when they finally find good, hard consistencies with ibd. unfortunately, there just isnt a ton of research done and known on reptiles, at least in physiological and internal medicine realm

 

[Drew Zaun]

it will be so helpful and relieving, when they finally find good, hard consistencies with ibd. unfortunately, there just isnt a ton of research done and known on reptiles, at least in physiological and internal medicine realm

Sounds to me like plenty of room for a series of publications

Now all you need is a few grants to get you going.

 

[reticguy76]

haha. ive been contemplating studying for a degree in laboratory herpetology. i do tons and tons of reading and studying on reptile/amphibian medicine. ive been in small animal emergency medicine for my entire veterinary career, with a "special interest" in reptile/amphibian medicine (as there is no certification or specialization degree in reptile.amphiban medicine yet). id love to one day join the reptile medicine research team (as it were), and contribute to proving theories and such

 

[SakaraGT4]

You def. should pursue that Ryan... Even if it is just a side "special interest" thing...

And I, obviously, understand the concern about the health of the animals... As I stated, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with any of my animals and that there hasn't been since that one, hopefully, isolated incident with the BCL...

But, I have decided to hold off on my projects for this year simply to INSURE to the community that there is no issue... By next season, it will have been 2 years since the BCL incident and provided that there are no issues with ANY animal until then, then there should be no issues... And even though I believe that there is no issue, NOW, I would rather wait and INSURE it to everyone else then have a bunch of babies that no one wants due to "possibilities"...

I feel that that is the best thing I can do as of now... well, including not getting anymore animals, but the hubby already told me I can't anyway because we don't need anymore, but that's besides the point... IF my vet can find someone around here to do the live tissue biopsy that isn't like, several hours away, I will look into the live liver biopsies as well... I believe there may be one about 45 mins in Salado that will do it, but if not I will have to look into College Station...

I still do not feel that my collection, Yvonne's collection or any animal that has been around any of them are in danger... But I would rather prove that to y'all then get harassed about it this season.


As for the topic of this thread... I still expect Yvonne to respond back about the issue of the money owed... Whether it be here or privately... Either way is fine... The topic here has just gone a little... off topic... So yea... Her choice... But I still expect payment

 

[Tim Cole]

haha. ive been contemplating studying for a degree in laboratory herpetology. i do tons and tons of reading and studying on reptile/amphibian medicine. ive been in small animal emergency medicine for my entire veterinary career, with a "special interest" in reptile/amphibian medicine (as there is no certification or specialization degree in reptile.amphiban medicine yet). id love to one day join the reptile medicine research team (as it were), and contribute to proving theories and such

Actually, there is a certification program...http://www.abvp.com/categories_reptileamphibianstudy.htm.

I only know about it because my vet has mentioned it.

 

[amercnwmn]

And I, obviously, understand the concern about the health of the animals... As I stated, I do not believe that there is anything wrong with any of my animals and that there hasn't been since that one, hopefully, isolated incident with the BCL...

You already stated you had 3 or 4 snakes DIE since that snake, they just allegedly did not show signs of inclusion bodies in tests you claim to have done.

But, I have decided to hold off on my projects for this year simply to INSURE to the community that there is no issue...

Well it's a START, but IMO that should have been done the DAY you realized you had a sick snake, not a YEAR later.

By next season, it will have been 2 years since the BCL incident and provided that there are no issues with ANY animal until then, then there should be no issues...

No, it will be ONE year, since you claim to have lost 3-4 other snakes SINCE then. Without further testing of your snakes in your collection, it would be reckless IMO to sell/give away any snakes.

And even though I believe that there is no issue, NOW, I would rather wait and INSURE it to everyone else then have a bunch of babies that no one wants due to "possibilities"...

Well I'm sooo sorry you had to put your plans to breed/sell snakes on hold this year in order to potentially spare others a LOT of heartache and money, it should have been done LAST year, IMO.

I feel that that is the best thing I can do as of now... well, including not getting anymore animals, but the hubby already told me I can't anyway because we don't need anymore, but that's besides the point...

Your husband shouldn't have to tell you NOT to get snakes if you've had a sick one.

IF my vet can find someone around here to do the live tissue biopsy that isn't like, several hours away, I will look into the live liver biopsies as well... I believe there may be one about 45 mins in Salado that will do it, but if not I will have to look into College Station...

That would be advisable.

I still do not feel that my collection, Yvonne's collection or any animal that has been around any of them are in danger... But I would rather prove that to y'all then get harassed about it this season.

Your audacity astounds me.. You refer to "harassment", while some things I will admit were petty that were brought into question, YOU brought them into question.
It shouldn't be about proving anything to me, or anyone else, it should be about the welfare of YOUR animals, YOUR collection and anyone you sell to.

As for the topic of this thread... I still expect Yvonne to respond back about the issue of the money owed... Whether it be here or privately... Either way is fine... The topic here has just gone a little... off topic... So yea... Her choice... But I still expect payment

I agree, and I think it's been clarified repeatedly what you and she BOTH need to do.

Since you are correct and the issue of IBD is NOT of real relevance to this thread, I started a new one on the BOI that you should probably be made aware of. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1159305#post1159305

Your potential buyers SHOULD have been made aware of these things WHEN IT HAPPENED, BY YOU. NOT a YEAR later by accidental search of your screen name and putting two and two together.

Just because YOU THINK your collection is healthy does not guarantee it is, ESPECIALLY with something as obscure and dangerous as IBD.

I'm done with this petty arguing. The facts are there.
Sorry this got drug out on a thread where you are trying to recoup a loss, but things like this do tend to pop up when one has to research facts on their own.

I hope you and Yvonne can come to an agreement.

 

[reticguy76]

its a good thing to hold off, just in case. the bad part is that you may have boas (or your snakes in general, but mostly the boas), that may not show signs/symptoms for a long time or never at all and just be a host, but could pass it on to offspring (although that method of transportation is not confirmed either).

when ibd is suspected, be it in one animal or an entire collection, there are basically three options: do not breed at all, do not breed for at least 12-24 months (while the whole time never puting any animals together and keep them as separated as possible), or humanely euthanize +/- sending off each animals blood, organ samples off to be individually tested. its really a double edge sword when dealing with something inconsistent and non-specific as ibd.
the last option is usually the medicinally recommended way to go. but not usually that popular (weird, haha)

also, to my understanding, its not even fully known what 100% kills ibd or how long its stable out of the reptilian body, which makes it tough. boas are prone to it, for symptoms and for host qualities. almost like rotties and pitbulls are way more prone to parvovirus than other breeds. so you never really know, where ibd came from or anything if you have to deal with it

 

[reticguy76]

Tim, thank you for that link. i have known the vet board has been working on getting certification availability in reptile/amphibian medicine, but havent really been following as of late. looks like it might be back to the books, hahaha

thanks again

 

[zzzdanz]

I'm still lost on what IBD has to do with the money that is owed to the OP...And now we'll have another thread just repeating what has already been said in this 1.

 

[sally-dog]

I'm still lost on what IBD has to do with the money that is owed to the OP...And now we'll have another thread just repeating what has already been said in this 1.

Nope. Looks like the tables have turned and the OP is someone a lot of people would never consider buying from now that the evidence has been put forth. Go read that other thread.

 

[amercnwmn]

I'm still lost on what IBD has to do with the money that is owed to the OP...And now we'll have another thread just repeating what has already been said in this 1.

IMO I felt it shed light on a person who started this thread with NO PROOF against the other person. Ashley is claiming she is owed $897 on just a "VERBAL AGREEMENT", and we are expected to trust her word.

When "petty" little things started popping up, they started to paint a picture of questionable credibility.

The IBD thing should not have gone as far as it did here, I agree. The purpose for the 2nd thread is a "heads up" to anyone who may have purchased animals during this time frame.
Would you want to know if you were potentially buying a snake from someone who had MEDICAL PROOF of IBD in their collection and proven laxed quarantine procedures?

The fact that the person asking for our trust in her word MIGHT have KNOWINGLY sold sick snakes in the recent past makes me question the amount and time frame she has claimed without proving.
THAT'S the relevance it had here, at least to me.

 

[zzzdanz]

IMO when it was agreed that money was owed,it was over and should of been settled privately between those 2 people..If you got more from this thread,that's good, that's what the BOI is here for.