Bad Guy Zheng Wong

[meisen]

Bad Guy:
Zheng Wong aka zheng_TX

I purchased a group of Nephrurus geckos from zheng_TX this past summer. While five of the animals have worked out well and are healthy, I have had a very negative experience with the sixth and Zheng's handling of the issue (or non-handling)

The highest value animal of the group, a female N.l.occidentalis, arrived in questionable condition...what I described to him as bloated and lethargic. He assured me she was healthy and that this was normal for female Nephrurus levis occidentalis and that probably my conditions were to blame (nevermind that the other animals were not behaving in this way). I took him at his word and pressed on, tweaking conditions in her enclosure as per his recommendations etc to little change. Meanwhile all the other animals had begun feeding (2-5 days after arrival) while this occi female did not. She would often just lay out in the open instead of in her hide with her abodomen pressed against the substrate. Zheng offered a initial and partial solution just for the trouble I was having (another one of the animals, a young occi also dropped it's tail in shipping). At my expense, he shipped me a juvy Nephrurus levis levis with the statement that it was partial restitution for the sick occi.

The occi female never ate while in my care and started to show signs of starvation all the while looking bloated but feeling empty (and steadily losing weight). I worked at keeping her going with syringe "feedings" but she continued to decline. Zheng said he felt bad about all this and would make things right. Around the end of August she died and I contacted Zheng. He did not seem surprised and offered a very small discount on my buying more animals from him as restitution! Great, just what I need is more animals from a source I've already had problems with.

I had no fecal matter from her meaning she had not eaten for at least several days before she was shipped. I figured I spent about $550-600 for her in the package deal plus shipping (but we never broke out the amounts). I asked Zheng for $250 of that back in a paypal refund in addition to the baby Neph already sent which we both valued at about $100. I also offered another solution, one of his baby amyae for the lost adult female occi with me paying shipping on it. This was a second less favored option as that is not an animal I was really planning for in my collection. I think either solution was reasonable considering that I have little to show for the money I spent with him on this animal at this point.

Zheng never responded to me again after my email suggesting the above solutions. Not even to offer some other solution (assuming he felt the requests were unreasonable). I felt like I was polite and respectful at all times and for the most part (except breaking communication and not following through with the situation) Zheng was too.

Anyway, while I really don't know whether or not to believe that Zheng knew there were health problems in this animal, that's sort of moot anyway. He sold me an animal that never ate, defecated or acted normally and I feel he has a responsibility to make things right. I know there is a risk anytime you buy an animal. I guess I am used to expecting people to stand behind their animals as I do and to do things differently than just blowing someone off this way.

 

[JordanAng420]

Hey Mark...sorry for your troubles...

Do you have any EMail corresponence? Pictures, possibly? Anything you have that can prove your transaction is worth posting. I know he hasn't responded to you, but please let him know of this thread if you haven't already.

How are the other geckos? Everybody else doing okay?

 

[JordanAng420]

*worth posting = legitamate.

 

[Steveboos]

Yeah posting every email and all conversations is going to help us determine how bad of a seller this person is and if they are in the wrong. Of course from your side he sounds like a scumbag, but we always like to hear the other side of the story.

 

[meisen]

Hey Mark...sorry for your troubles...

Do you have any EMail corresponence? Pictures, possibly? Anything you have that can prove your transaction is worth posting. I know he hasn't responded to you, but please let him know of this thread if you haven't already.

How are the other geckos? Everybody else doing okay?

Yep, I'll get the significant emails up as well as a pic. Unfortunately the post- mortem pic I took is a bit crappy but I can post that too.

The other animals seem great, no issues, feeding, growing just fine. I got offspring this past year from some of my other Nephs and have had no other problems in the rest of the collection so I am feeling like my husbandry is up to par.

I did send Zheng a link to the thread as well.

 

[meisen]

Zheng
to me

show details Sep 12

Hi Mark,

Sorry to hear that and sorry for not being able to reply your last email in time. My semester has started in August. I'm getting really busy and overload with course assignments day by day.

I'm open to any fair and constructive solutions you may have. I have another juvenile levis hatched about one month ago. Unfortunately s/he misses its tail. I have two more (last two) eggs in the incubator that will due in 1-2 weeks or so. I'm hoping to get healthy hatchlings, but who knows.

Just let me know your thought...Sorry again for the bad news, it's a handsome female occi. Hopefully you will find another pretty female for the male soon.

Zheng


From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 1:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis
- Show quoted text -

Mark Eisenhandler
to Zheng

show details Sep 12

Hi Zheng,

Thanks for the reply and your willingness to work something out with me, I do appreciate it. I understand about school work for sure, I am taking classes this semester too and its nuts. Here is what I propose and my logic behind it:

Its hard to put an exact cash value on the female but working from the general assumption of about 800 for the levis trio and 150 for the occi baby that leaves about 750 for the occi pair (occis being more rare than levis levis) of which I'd guestimate the female at about 2/3 the value of. So more or less $500? Does that mesh with your thinking? I'm not expecting a full dollar per dollar refund or anything so probably the exact amount isn't too important.

Option 1:
Let let the eggs you have incubating hatch. If both are healthy (and you are able to start them OK) I'd take them and the tailless animal in restitution for the lost animal. That's working off the idea that they are worth about $100 each. Maybe a bit less for the animal missing a tail since it will be months before I could resell the slightly than an intact animal and regrown tail animals usually sell a little cheaper as well. I'd cover shipping on them if you think this is a fair course of action. If we go that route I'd like to wait at least a month after hatching to make sure the babies are well started and healthy. I'm not in a hurry or anything and the last thing I want is to have more issues with any animals. Maybe this option is more appealing to you since its technically no money out of your pocket.

Option 2:
I'd be open a partial cash refund of something like $250 accounting for the one animal you already sent me. I do believe you that you weren't aware the occi was sick when you shipped so a full paypal refund for its purchase price doesn't seem like it would be fair or reasonable to you. I know these things happen and while one should expect to purchase healthy animals from people, it doesn't always work out that way.

Option 3:
If the eggs don't hatch or the babies are frail or have issues again we can do a partial cash refund working with the above numbers if you agree with them (for example 1 healthy baby, 1 without tail, $50 refund and covering shipping on your end for them or something like that).

These are just working suggestions, I would be fine with any of them or to hear what you have to say. Let me know if you think they are reasonable.

Thanks.

Mark
- Show quoted text -

 

[meisen]

Zheng
to me

show details Sep 13

Let's wait until the two eggs hatch and see what I get and we start from there.
BTW, do you mind sending me a picture of the dead female?

Thanks

Z

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 8:23:17 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis
- Show quoted text -

Hi Zheng,

Thanks for the reply and your willingness to work something out with me, I do appreciate it. I understand about school work for sure, I am taking classes this semester too and its nuts. Here is what I propose and my logic behind it:

Its hard to put an exact cash value on the female but working from the general assumption of about 800 for the levis trio and 150 for the occi baby that leaves about 750 for the occi pair (occis being more rare than levis levis) of which I'd guestimate the female at about 2/3 the value of. So more or less $500? Does that mesh with your thinking? I'm not expecting a full dollar per dollar refund or anything so probably the exact amount isn't too important.

Option 1:
Let let the eggs you have incubating hatch. If both are healthy (and you are able to start them OK) I'd take them and the tailless animal in restitution for the lost animal. That's working off the idea that they are worth about $100 each. Maybe a bit less for the animal missing a tail since it will be months before I could resell the slightly than an intact animal and regrown tail animals usually sell a little cheaper as well. I'd cover shipping on them if you think this is a fair course of action. If we go that route I'd like to wait at least a month after hatching to make sure the babies are well started and healthy. I'm not in a hurry or anything and the last thing I want is to have more issues with any animals. Maybe this option is more appealing to you since its technically no money out of your pocket.

Option 2:
I'd be open a partial cash refund of something like $250 accounting for the one animal you already sent me. I do believe you that you weren't aware the occi was sick when you shipped so a full paypal refund for its purchase price doesn't seem like it would be fair or reasonable to you. I know these things happen and while one should expect to purchase healthy animals from people, it doesn't always work out that way.

Option 3:
If the eggs don't hatch or the babies are frail or have issues again we can do a partial cash refund working with the above numbers if you agree with them (for example 1 healthy baby, 1 without tail, $50 refund and covering shipping on your end for them or something like that).

These are just working suggestions, I would be fine with any of them or to hear what you have to say. Let me know if you think they are reasonable.

Thanks.

Mark

On Sun, Sep 12, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Sorry to hear that and sorry for not being able to reply your last email in time. My semester has started in August. I'm getting really busy and overload with course assignments day by day.

I'm open to any fair and constructive solutions you may have. I have another juvenile levis hatched about one month ago. Unfortunately s/he misses its tail. I have two more (last two) eggs in the incubator that will due in 1-2 weeks or so. I'm hoping to get healthy hatchlings, but who knows.

Just let me know your thought...Sorry again for the bad news, it's a handsome female occi. Hopefully you will find another pretty female for the male soon.

Zheng


From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, September 12, 2010 1:42:34 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hi Zheng,

Well, some bad but not surprising news. The female Occidentalis was dead in her cage this am. She never ate or pooped in the time I had her nor did she lay any eggs. She doesn't appear to have eggs in her since I felt more comfortable palpating a dead animal a little more aggressively.

I will get some pics to substantiate this to you. I plan on doing a necropsy to look for eggs or anything else that could have contributed to her demise (besides starvation) but I will take pics first (and during if something stands out) of course. I'd like to send some tissue samples to the diagnostic lab here in town if the cost isnt too prohibitive. I'll let you know if I find anything out but its pretty clear that whatever was wrong with her was that way from the day I got her.

I am feeling pretty bummed out at this point. First and foremost about losing an animal but also at being out so much $$$ too. Let me know what you feel is fair in the way of amends here. I will definitely take into account that you did already send me that other juvy levis because of the problems I was having with her. Feel free to call if you want to discuss a solution. I am definitely a reasonable person and I am not expecting you to refund the full purchase price or take the animals back or anything. But as I am sure you do, I feel like some further restitution is in order.

Thanks again for your time and consideration in this matter.

Mark Eisenhandler



On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:15 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

1Z79V5930113966421

UPS overnight tomorrow by 10:30. Keep my fingers crossed...

Please let me know then, thanks!

Zheng


From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 10:18:47 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

You got it, thats the correct address.

Mark

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

Ok, UPS this time. Will ship to:
Mark Eisenhandler
536 Troy Drive
Madison, WI 53704
United States

Let me know if I got the address wrong. Will let you know the tracking this afternoon.

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Wed, August 4, 2010 9:53:46 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Are you going to ship UPS this time? I think they allow for live shipments and you can mark it as such so perhaps they will be more careful with it this time.

Mark

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]> wrote:

Hey Zheng,

Shipping today sounds fine.

Mark


On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 11:12 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Mark,

I will ship it tomorrow by Fedex o/n. Once again, what's your address and phone#?

I don't know why they turns out like this. I hatched three levis one month before these clutches, and all those three are healthy and vigorous.

This time I actually managed to hatch three. Two from the red female were skinnier upon hatching and suffered during the first shed. It took them about one week to shed (with soaking and assistance) and then one died shortly after, and the other once seemed to recover, but died quickly since I sent you email yesterday. My guess is the humidity during incubation might have been too low, and the two from the same incubator deli cup were little dehydrate, which severely affect post-hatching development. Or maybe the female was still too young to produce eggs with enough nutrition, which is feasible considering the fact that this was her second clutch ever. After all, that's all my guess though.

My other female amyae is digging now. Hopefully I can have some success on amyae, since they are proven breeders in their 2nd breeding season..

let me know...

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 10:08:59 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hey Zheng,

Sorry to hear about the other baby. What do you think it was? Just failure to thrive?

I'll give the other one a try. Sending payment for shipping now.


Mark

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 5:13 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Mark,

Unfortunately the skinner one is dying as I type this. Let me know if you still want the healthy one for $50 shipped.

Z

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, August 3, 2010 1:03:00 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hi Zheng,

I definitely do understand where you are coming from and believe me, the situation is something I would never wish on either of us. I definitely agree, shipping her back to you is probably a bad plan for both of us and the animal too...if she is sick it will probably kill her and if she's egg bound her chance of successfully laying her eggs naturally is much less with another shipping trauma. I am starting to wonder if maybe the box got handled really roughly, damaging or stressing her and causing the baby occi to lose its tail. I guess we'll never know.

As far as her progress, well nothing majorly different. She has been spending more time in her hide and on the sand so your suggestion about drying it out a bit some seems to have helped that. She still acts the same way, sort of lethargic and just lays wherever she is, even when I go into the cage. I tried superworms, mealworms, dubias and fresh crickets of three different sizes and she shows no interest. No poop either, I got a sifter and sifted through all her substrate so until that happens or she pukes her skin I dont have anything to send to the lab to test. My hope is the same as yours, that she is just egg bound and that it will work it out in time. My friend (the vet) suggested if an oxytocin injection to stimulate egg-laying if that is the issue. Most lizards start laying the eggs right where they are immediately after getting the injection. If that fails, we can try asperating one or both of the eggs with a syringe through her belly wall which works pretty well. She actually has a portable ultrasound we can use to see if she does have eggs before doing either of course. I still don't see if what is causing her fatness. Her belly is not transparent enough to tell if there are any in there but the US should answer that question. I absolutely wouldn't euthanize her (or any animal) unless she returns a positive crypto test, doesn't resume feeding and/or shows signs of advanced disease and suffering. As long as she's just egg bound, she doesn't pose a threat to my other animals, just her own health. I would definitely check in with you before doing anything that drastic anyway and I'll keep working on her to the best of my ability. My friend is willing to help me out for just the actual ultrasound, screening and drug costs (if needed) as I have helped her out with some aquatic stuff on occasion so at least there I wont be laying out more than the cost of the animal for veterinary care.

Also, perhaps this didn't come through in my frustrated emails but I am not angry with you by any means. I am frustrated and disappointed with the situation as I am sure you are too. I do appreciate you keeping in touch with me and following up as well as offering a reasonable course of action short-term. That goes a long way towards making things right. Last time I had a problem with an animal the seller just left me out to dry and cut off communication as soon as I mentioned there was an issue....I was out for three expensive leo morphs in that deal so I think I am a little jumpy about getting the shaft again. I am an upstanding guy as I believe you are so as long as we continue to be honest and fair, I am confidant we'll figure this out as best as can be. I have been in the hobby for a long, long time asa hobbyist, professional and a breeder at various times and have been on the other end of things like this so I do know where you are coming from too.

I appreciate your offer of sending the two babies and I'll give them a try. I'll send you the shipping over today and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark



On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 12:18 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

Hi Mark,

How's the female occi now? Any progress since our last correspondance?

I understand what you mean, but it is very hard for me to take back the female occi and refund your money at this situation. Probably you should wait and give her some time to relax and manage to do a fecal without stressing her up.

And I don't wanna be a jerk either. It's after all a hobby not a business for me. Reputation and integrity worth much more than few hundred bucks. So here is the kinda refund for you at this time. I have two more newly hatched levis, one from the brown female and one from the red one. As you can tell from the pictures, the maroon one (brown mather) is 100% healthy and shows nice color at night when it's warmed up (probably about to shed in the picture); while the skinner one is a little bit weaker, it has shed twice and can feed on its own, but I hand fed it to make sure it gets enough calcium and VD3. At this point, I will say it has 50% chance to recover after a period of special attention (hand feed, higher humid box, assisted shed, etc..).That my judgement, you may have yours once you check it by yourself.

The solution is, if you pay me $50 of the overnight shipping, I will send them to you. That's $0 for 1.5 healthy unsexed levis. And hopefully it will make you feel better for now. I have more levis eggs and amyae eggs in the incubator, IF the female occi dies (please do not kill her on purpose...sorry to say that), you can get more offmarket price on the other hatchlings, you have my words.

Feel free to let me know what you think.

Thanks!

Zheng



--- On Fri, 7/30/10, Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]> wrote:


From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

To: "Zheng" <[email protected]>
Date: Friday, July 30, 2010, 5:03 PM


Hey Zheng thanks for the reply. I'll try letting the substrate dry a little bit and see if that changes anything. I have a larger box but don't want to stress her more now.

A friend of mine runs the state vet testing lab, he and his wife are both DVms and both agreed that the only two ways to get a good sample is poop or necropsy. Hopefully won't be the latter. Today while fooling around in the tank I went throug all the sand and nothing.



So where does that leave us?

Mark

Sent from my iPhone

On Jul 30, 2010, at 4:49 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> Judging from the pictures you sent me, I am wondering if the sand is too moist? Looks like she doesn't like the moist sand, and trying to keep herself dry by staying on the top of the hide. And I kept the females in 15qt/14L sterilite clear boxes which seem more spacious than your rack box. I am quite sure she ate crickets normally before shipping. As I mentioned, she's not an aggressive feeder though. She usually poops at the corners of the box and half-bury with sand, maybe you missed it? If you believe it's crypto, you may take her to your vet and I assume the vet should have his/her way to do a fecal without poops. Have you tried anything other than crickets? Maybe a small superworm? I used to feed them 1-2 dusted ones per week as treat. Keep me posted what's going on with her and the diagnose result from the Vet if you do the test.
>
> Thanks
>
> Zheng
>
> From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
> To: Zheng <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 3:52:11 PM
> Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis
>
> Hi Zheng,
>
> Here are a few pics of her and her enclosure. Its a basic rack with belly heat, hot spot is 90 degrees and I do keep the sand pushed up to one side so she can access the hot spot. Working fine for my other animals. Also, when I put her on her back for that last pic she just laid that way, limp....
>
> No eggs that I can make out in her or the other Nephs females. I am not surprised about the others not being pregnant, probably the stress of shipping shut them down for a while. The occidentalis female's belly is super swollen now, even more than when I first got her......feels hollow if you asked me like its air or something in there....thats something similar to what I have seen with Crypto because their lower intestinal tract gets so swollen that all the gasses build up behind it and bloat the whole integument. I guess the diagnostic will be when she sheds and either eats her skin successfully or vomits it up like in crypto. If she ever poops I can get a fecal done but so far nothing there (in almost three weeks!!!). I guess her not pooping is why I asked about how she was eating before you shipped her....if she had eaten just before shipping she should have pooped by now unless something is wrong. Which at this point I am fairly certain of....
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:31 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> Can you see visible eggs in her belly? If she's pregnant, there should be at least one visible egg like what you can tell from the other levis ( I assume they are pregnant by now). I always put a deep pile of damp sand (white Zoomed sand from Petsmart) in the cool side, right beneath her hide. And on the hot side, which should be around 85-90F, I only leave a thin layer of sand to make sure she can really warm herself up when she's laying on this side. She wont eat after pre-lay shedding. Would you please take a picture of her and her enclosure.
>
> Thanks
>
> Z
>
> From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
> To: Zheng <[email protected]>
> Sent: Fri, July 30, 2010 1:47:46 PM
> Subject: Female Occidentalis
>
> Hi Zheng,
>
> Well I am getting increasingly concerned about that female occidentalis and her health. Is she maybe egg bound if its not crypto? She is super bloated, wont eat or even show signs of being interested in eating, is continuing to have her tail shrink and she just lays there in her cage all the time on top of her hide. I put a deep pile of damp sand in one end of her enclosure but she hasnt so much as moved from on top of her hide for days on end (as far as I can tell). I did as I said and just left her alone since last we spoke, tried feeding her last night with 1 cricket but she totally ignored it. She hasn't pooped since I got her either....at least nothing that I can see in her cage.
>
> What should I do?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Mark
>
>
>














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Zheng
Let's wait until the two eggs hatch and see what I get and we start from ther...

Sep 13
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Mark Eisenhandler
to Zheng

show details Oct 16

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark

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Zheng
to me

show details Oct 16

the two levis didn't make it..
I do have two amyae hatchlings..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204385

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 10:07:17 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis
- Show quoted text -

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark


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Mark Eisenhandler
to Zheng

show details Oct 16

Oh bummer. What do you think happened? Incubation problem or fertility problem or something else?

So what can you propose? An amyae baby for the lost occi?


Mark
- Show quoted text -


On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

the two levis didn't make it..
I do have two amyae hatchlings..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204385

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 10:07:17 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark



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Zheng
to me

show details Oct 16

I don't know what's wrong with the levis.

If you what, you can get the 0.0.2 amyae for $600/shipped. That's about $200 less than regular market price on babies. if you fortunately end up with two females, you'll have $1000 profit.

Z
From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 9:00:43 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis
- Show quoted text -

Oh bummer. What do you think happened? Incubation problem or fertility problem or something else?

So what can you propose? An amyae baby for the lost occi?


Mark

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

the two levis didn't make it..
I do have two amyae hatchlings..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204385

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 10:07:17 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark




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Mark Eisenhandler
to Zheng

show details Oct 16

Hmmm....

I dont want to get into a market price argument or anything, only want to tell you what my experience is here in the midwest:

I see quite a few amyae babies selling for $300-350 in this part of the country so thats not much of a deal for me. To have to shell out another large sum of money to get back to where I started seems a bit frustrating. I am sure market prices vary a bit but I just got back from a show where there were two further along babies for sale at $325 each. A show prior to that had one for $300. Even some hypo unsexed ones last weekend were only $400 each. And of course I could end up with two females but just as likely I'd get two males that would be of no use whatsoever to me.

So this is what I propose:

How about I pay shipping plus $50 on one of the babies and you sell me the other levis for $100 (assuming that one is still doing OK) which was our agreed upon price for subsequent babies anyway. Thats pretty close to your $200 discount and free shipping offer on the two amyae by my math. That way you still get rid of two animals in one shot, make our deal right for the sick occi and I am not out another large sum of cash.

Another option if the levis is gone or not doing well (or you'd rather try to sell the amyae for $400) is to just refund me $250 for the lost animal and we'll call it settled. I am open to either, whatever works better for you is fine.

Seem reasonable?

Mark
- Show quoted text -


On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

I don't know what's wrong with the levis.

If you what, you can get the 0.0.2 amyae for $600/shipped. That's about $200 less than regular market price on babies. if you fortunately end up with two females, you'll have $1000 profit.

Z
From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 9:00:43 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Oh bummer. What do you think happened? Incubation problem or fertility problem or something else?

So what can you propose? An amyae baby for the lost occi?


Mark

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

the two levis didn't make it..
I do have two amyae hatchlings..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204385

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 10:07:17 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark





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Mark Eisenhandler
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show details Oct 19

Hi Zheng,

Did you have a chance to think about it spme more? Let me know what you think.

Thanks.

Mark

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]> wrote:

Hmmm....

I dont want to get into a market price argument or anything, only want to tell you what my experience is here in the midwest:

I see quite a few amyae babies selling for $300-350 in this part of the country so thats not much of a deal for me. To have to shell out another large sum of money to get back to where I started seems a bit frustrating. I am sure market prices vary a bit but I just got back from a show where there were two further along babies for sale at $325 each. A show prior to that had one for $300. Even some unsexed ones last weekend were only $400 each. And of course I could end up with two females but just as likely I'd get two males that would be of no use whatsoever to me.
- Show quoted text -


So this is what I propose:

How about I pay shipping plus $50 on one of the babies and you sell me the other levis for $100 (assuming that one is still doing OK) which was our agreed upon price for subsequent babies anyway. Thats pretty close to your $200 discount and free shipping offer on the two amyae by my math. That way you still get rid of two animals in one shot, make our deal right for the sick occi and I am not out another large sum of cash.

Another option if the levis is gone or not doing well (or you'd rather try to sell the amyae for $400) is to just refund me $250 for the lost animal and we'll call it settled. I am open to either, whatever works better for you is fine.

Seem reasonable?

Mark


On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

I don't know what's wrong with the levis.

If you what, you can get the 0.0.2 amyae for $600/shipped. That's about $200 less than regular market price on babies. if you fortunately end up with two females, you'll have $1000 profit.

Z
From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 9:00:43 PM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Oh bummer. What do you think happened? Incubation problem or fertility problem or something else?

So what can you propose? An amyae baby for the lost occi?


Mark

On Sat, Oct 16, 2010 at 7:53 PM, Zheng <[email protected]> wrote:

the two levis didn't make it..
I do have two amyae hatchlings..
http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204385

Zheng

From: Mark Eisenhandler <[email protected]>
To: Zheng <[email protected]>
Sent: Sat, October 16, 2010 10:07:17 AM
Subject: Re: Female Occidentalis

Hey Zheng,

Just checking in to see where we are at. Did those last two levis eggs you had hatch? They must be at or past term by now based on when you shipped the females to me, right?

Just lmk whats up and we can go from there.

Thanks.

Mark

 

[meisen]

The above email refers to another refund option I had suggested...he had two baby levis I would have considered taking...but both died apparently.

Also interestingly it looks like Zheng changed names

Anson Wong aka DCgecko

I didnt even notice that in the email he sent me.

 

[meisen]

I dont think its the Anson Wong of Malaysian smuggling fame BTW.

 

[meisen]

Yeah posting every email and all conversations is going to help us determine how bad of a seller this person is and if they are in the wrong. Of course from your side he sounds like a scumbag, but we always like to hear the other side of the story.

Honestly I don't think he's a scumbag......nothing in our interaction led me to think that way, just that he's not taking care of what he needs to, thats all.

I'm not happy with how he chose to end communication and the possibility of restitution along with it. I wouldn't recommend him based on that. As he's back to selling on Fauna with unresolved issues (at least IMO) I felt like I had to say something.

I have to dig into my archived mail for the first dozen or so emails between us....they are mostly as above, polite on both sides with me communicating the problems and concerns I had with the occi and the juvy levis that dropped its tail. I think I saved everything that passed back and fourth...er I hope I did.

 

[purpleblockhead]

i have 2 beautiful levis juvis from Zheng and both are very heathy and happy, 1 of them is a little scared of the crickets so shes a little smaller but she eats when she gets her courage up! its 2 bad you guys havent came 2 a resolution my transaction with Zheng was very easy, i met him on another site sent him my money threw paypal and recieved my 2 levis 2 days later, shoot him another email/phone call he seems very honest 2 me im sure he'll make it right, his prices were so low i was hoping 2 buy a couple more from him but he told me he sold his breeders, good luck and im sorry 2 hear you lost a occ

 

[meisen]

i have 2 beautiful levis juvis from Zheng and both are very heathy and happy, 1 of them is a little scared of the crickets so shes a little smaller but she eats when she gets her courage up! its 2 bad you guys havent came 2 a resolution my transaction with Zheng was very easy, i met him on another site sent him my money threw paypal and recieved my 2 levis 2 days later, shoot him another email/phone call he seems very honest 2 me im sure he'll make it right, his prices were so low i was hoping 2 buy a couple more from him but he told me he sold his breeders, good luck and im sorry 2 hear you lost a occ

All the other animals are quite healthy so in that sense I agree with you purpleblockhead. I do agree, everything about this guy suggested to me he'd take care of this issue in an agreeable manner....but he hasn't thus I felt I had to start this thread.

Do you have his phone #? Could you pm it to me? I thought I had it but the one I had I either wrote down incorrectly or has been disconnected. I have sent 7 emails now and several pms on a couple of different sites asking for follow up with no response. I hate posting about a deal that went wrong, it feels like whining and frankly if it wasnt such a large amount of $$$ I would have just let it go. Him changing his name (both real and username) on here is also a bit concerning...it seems like a common pattern of folks who want to leave the past behind so to speak.

If you read the email thread above we are talking weeks since his last communication with me of any kind.

 

[meisen]

Well, no response either here or via email or pm and I sent links to this as well as polite notes to every contact point I have for Zheng. I guess my next step is to try and file small claims...anyone have any experience with that?

 

[Suncoast Herpetological]

Mark

Unless he had specific TOS in place and violated them small claims is pretty much a waste of time. While i agree that he should do something for you, most amphibian and gecko breeders have a Live Arrival or, at best, a short warranty period. The animal arrived alive and survived for a fair amount of time. It sucks but falls into the %$#@ happens category of dealing with fairly delicate live animals.

I would continue to attempt contact and direct resolution. He indicated he would do something for you. Push for that "something". It may not be what you want but you are pretty much at his mercy at this point

 

[meisen]

Mark

Unless he had specific TOS in place and violated them small claims is pretty much a waste of time. While i agree that he should do something for you, most amphibian and gecko breeders have a Live Arrival or, at best, a short warranty period. The animal arrived alive and survived for a fair amount of time. It sucks but falls into the %$#@ happens category of dealing with fairly delicate live animals.

I would continue to attempt contact and direct resolution. He indicated he would do something for you. Push for that "something". It may not be what you want but you are pretty much at his mercy at this point

I appreciate the input and will keep that in mind. I am sure you are right about small claims being a waste of time.

I also think its clear his strategy at this point is to ignore me....over a month since he has communicated with me and he's been on here and over at GU since then. At least this post will hopefully serve as a warning to others....a very expensive one at that for me and probably even more so for Zheng in the future as well unless he changes his names again .

Pretty much everything he offered involved me giving him more money as you can see from the emails which at this point feels a bit sickening. Don't throw good money after bad so they say right? I think at this point I'd need a partial refund to feel like he's held up his end of things. Which still has me holding the bag on the bigger half of the loss.

I also have to say this sort of "oh that sucks for you but too bad for you" I have gotten from several breeders has left quite a bad taste in my mouth overall. It has me seriously considering only dealing with a few honest breeders I know well and trust and passing up those "deals" that seem to be on the up and up. These are guys who would certainly never put me "at their mercy" let alone let something like this carry on so long. Not only are they honest people but they also have a reputation worth way more than any one transaction.

With other stuff its been more modest than losing an animal but things like poor shipping packaging leading to stressed animals (dropping tails....sheesh, pad the freaking cups a little bit, how much more does a couple of inches of packaging cost compared to a $500 animal? Especially one you put all this effort into producing!), the same chintziness leading to nearly frozen, unresponsive animals upon delivery, incorrectly sexed animals when it was really obvious upon arrival, etc etc etc. But many breeders seem willing to just let their customers eat these problems with barely a sorry, that's the way it goes to show for it...its just not right IMO. The breeders who are the exception may charge a little more but they'll be getting my business in the future I think.

 

[meisen]

Well its been a full week and no contact from Zheng after this went up. And more than a month of no contact before I even posted (during which time Zheng posted items for sale on here and on kingsnake, since removed ) . Its pretty clear to me that he doesn't intend to follow up or make things right. I'll stand by my original statement that Zheng is a bad guy and to be avoided.

 

[oli7a5]

Hey Mark, it sucks to have experiences like this. I've had to deal with some hobbyists that produce sub-par animals, but have learned from my mistakes. Like you said, I now prefer to deal with certain individuals that I know and have had good experiences with and have had good communication with as well. After a little while, those people really stick out and they also never seem to have problems selling their animals either as they develop a reputable reputation An individuals motivation in selling animals also plays a part in this trade. I know of some that will hold onto the best animals just to sell the one's that aren't doing as well. That's no way to do business, but sometimes you do get what you pay for. Other times you may get lucky so be weary...

 

[ozz465]

sucks on what happened. made me reject an offer he made me threw pm .

 

[windowswisher]

Sorry, Mark. I will definitely avoid.