Sean Kirk of Sean's Exotics (najaman517@yahoo.com) is Selling False Hets

This is just my opinion, but I think you got ripped off. The question is, did the seller know it was not a het or not. I know the litter was small, but there should have been at least one in the litter. I have had some lop sided litters in the past, but not that lop sided. I have never even had an 8 to 1 which would be 24 to 3. That is not likely. You got 8 to 0. You bred a visual to a supposed het. 50% should have been albino, sunglow is albino.

I say, you got ripped off.

Brian Dierking

I agree fully with Harald. There is a slight chance that female is a het it's just maybe the odds weren't on your side this go round. For a snake her size 8 babies in a litter is small. So (just playing devils advocate) try to give the benefit of the doubt and see that it's possible she is.

You've called him out on the carpet (rightfully so) by placing the thread. Not full bad guy yet as yes it's not proven she really isn't a het. But please try to think that maybe he was so willing to help because he want to make it right but truly couldn't. Also if you're truly sick and what you have on your plate is to much why take on another animal to help increase the load??? I'm just trying to state things as I see them in a benefit of the doubt kind of light. I'm not saying though you shouldn't be upset and frustrated. Lord knows I would be.

Honestly Anya you have a couple choices. I don't think you'll really like them though and have probably already thought them out. I just wanted to state them.

Option one: Keep her and attempt to try to prove her out giving him more time to get funds together if she doesn't.

Option two: Seller her to someone else as a normal poss het and cut your losses.

Honestly you are right in being upset and the way you feel. I hope with this thread a resolution can be found.

On a side note. I have congenital - potentially fatal health problems that put me out of commission at times and I have not one time (nor will I ever) allow that to be a barrier to proper business practices whether it's my buying or selling. But clearly I guess that's just me.

Originally Posted by brd7666

This is just my opinion, but I think you got ripped off. The question is, did the seller know it was not a het or not. I know the litter was small, but there should have been at least one in the litter. I have had some lop sided litters in the past, but not that lop sided. I have never even had an 8 to 1 which would be 24 to 3. That is not likely. You got 8 to 0. You bred a visual to a supposed het. 50% should have been albino, sunglow is albino.

I say, you got ripped off.

Brian Dierking

But on the other side of the coin I have had 'bad odds' litters /clutches before where true het to a visual did not pan out so it is possible.

Originally Posted by TailsWithScales

I agree fully with Harald. There is a slight chance that female is a het it's just maybe the odds weren't on your side this go round. For a snake her size 8 babies in a litter is small. So (just playing devils advocate) try to give the benefit of the doubt and see that it's possible she is.

You've called him out on the carpet (rightfully so) by placing the thread. Not full bad guy yet as yes it's not proven she really isn't a het. But please try to think that maybe he was so willing to help because he want to make it right but truly couldn't. Also if you're truly sick and what you have on your plate is to much why take on another animal to help increase the load??? I'm just trying to state things as I see them in a benefit of the doubt kind of light. I'm not saying though you shouldn't be upset and frustrated. Lord knows I would be.

Honestly Anya you have a couple choices. I don't think you'll really like them though and have probably already thought them out. I just wanted to state them.

Option one: Keep her and attempt to try to prove her out giving him more time to get funds together if she doesn't.

Option two: Seller her to someone else as a normal poss het and cut your losses.

Honestly you are right in being upset and the way you feel. I hope with this thread a resolution can be found.

On a side note. I have congenital - potentially fatal health problems that put me out of commission at times and I have not one time (nor will I ever) allow that to be a barrier to proper business practices whether it's my buying or selling. But clearly I guess that's just me.



But on the other side of the coin I have had 'bad odds' litters /clutches before where true het to a visual did not pan out so it is possible.

So, I should give him another chance and put even more food and time into this female, hoping to prove her next year? What if she doesn't, and he happens to be out of the hobby by then and could care less? If he doesn't take me seriously now, why would he change his mind then?

Why would he promise to give a refund if he couldn't? If that's the case then wouldn't he be upfront about it instead of making up endless excuses?

For the record, he is the one that is sick, not me.

From my business perspective, if we had sold a snake to a customer as a het, they bred it to a visual, and it did not prove out, and they were pretty upset and asked for a refund, I would do it. I would give it to them immediately or as soon as humanly possible, because my reputation is not worth harming over that one animal. That customer could raise heck over it and potentially hurt my future sales. I would rather them come out happy, and me get that het back. If I honestly know and believe it is a het, it shouldn't be a loss as I could either breed it or resell it. It's a win-win situation. Just my two cents, though.

Thank you for your input,
Anya Hogan

Originally Posted by russianbaby007

So, I should give him another chance and put even more food and time into this female, hoping to prove her next year? What if she doesn't, and he happens to be out of the hobby by then and could care less? If he doesn't take me seriously now, why would he change his mind then?

Why would he promise to give a refund if he couldn't? If that's the case then wouldn't he be upfront about it instead of making up endless excuses?

For the record, he is the one that is sick, not me.

From my business perspective, if we had sold a snake to a customer as a het, they bred it to a visual, and it did not prove out, and they were pretty upset and asked for a refund, I would do it. I would give it to them immediately or as soon as humanly possible, because my reputation is not worth harming over that one animal. That customer could raise heck over it and potentially hurt my future sales. I would rather them come out happy, and me get that het back. If I honestly know and believe it is a het, it shouldn't be a loss as I could either breed it or resell it. It's a win-win situation. Just my two cents, though.

Thank you for your input,
Anya Hogan

The snake is not a het. You were ripped off and the guy is blowing you off. I have seen this too many times. The snake is a normal, plain and simple.

Just because I love statistics, here are the odds for getting a litter of 8 hets when breeding a het to a homozygote (aka het to a visual)
Basically the odds of the first baby being a het is 0.5
The odds of the next baby being a het is 0.5. The odds of BOTH babies being het is 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25
So the odds of all eight babies being hets IF the dam were indeed a het would be 0.00390625, or about 0.4%, or about 1 in 250. Depending on which way you like to think about things.
FWIW, most scientific papers consider 0.05 to be a reasonable cutoff point for saying something isn't due to a fluke because there's only a 5% chance of it being a statistical outlier. 1% chance if you want to be more rigorous.

So, "scientifically speaking", it's likely that the dam is not a het

Originally Posted by ophidile

Just because I love statistics, here are the odds for getting a litter of 8 hets when breeding a het to a homozygote (aka het to a visual)
Basically the odds of the first baby being a het is 0.5
The odds of the next baby being a het is 0.5. The odds of BOTH babies being het is 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25
So the odds of all eight babies being hets IF the dam were indeed a het would be 0.00390625, or about 0.4%, or about 1 in 250. Depending on which way you like to think about things.
FWIW, most scientific papers consider 0.05 to be a reasonable cutoff point for saying something isn't due to a fluke because there's only a 5% chance of it being a statistical outlier. 1% chance if you want to be more rigorous.

So, "scientifically speaking", it's likely that the dam is not a het

Lol, that last sentence was about the only one I really understood. I don't know much about statistics, though.

Thank you for that regardless!
Anya Hogan

Originally Posted by ophidile

Just because I love statistics, here are the odds for getting a litter of 8 hets when breeding a het to a homozygote (aka het to a visual)
Basically the odds of the first baby being a het is 0.5
The odds of the next baby being a het is 0.5. The odds of BOTH babies being het is 0.5 x 0.5 = 0.25
So the odds of all eight babies being hets IF the dam were indeed a het would be 0.00390625, or about 0.4%, or about 1 in 250. Depending on which way you like to think about things.
FWIW, most scientific papers consider 0.05 to be a reasonable cutoff point for saying something isn't due to a fluke because there's only a 5% chance of it being a statistical outlier. 1% chance if you want to be more rigorous.

So, "scientifically speaking", it's likely that the dam is not a het

You rock, Adie! Nice to see school's paying off. So, statistically, very unlikely that she's a het. Like I said, though, it has happened.

Anya, I think it's best to try and get the lines of communication open with Sean again to try and resolve this. My best advice is to leave your frustration at the door, and look at it from a purely professional frame of mind. Talk to him politely as a business person. Good luck.

Originally Posted by MikeCurtin

You rock, Adie! Nice to see school's paying off. So, statistically, very unlikely that she's a het. Like I said, though, it has happened.

Anya, I think it's best to try and get the lines of communication open with Sean again to try and resolve this. My best advice is to leave your frustration at the door, and look at it from a purely professional frame of mind. Talk to him politely as a business person. Good luck.

Mike,

I feel that I have already tried to be professional with him and have given him plenty of opportunity to resolve this. It has done me no good whatsoever and I feel like I'm just talking to a wall. He stated himself that he doesn't have anything to give. I really don't know what else to say to him...

Adam spoke to him this afternoon giving him one final notice of our intentions. He said the same thing then, that he doesn't have the money.

I'm really clueless as to what else I can do or say...

Anya Hogan

In that case, you only have a few options as far as I can see.

1. Sell the babies you got and call it a wash.
2. File a lawsuit (keep in mind that even if there is a judgment, there's no guarantee of payment).
3. Be extra nice in an attempt to get him to agree (in writing) to a payment plan he can adhere to.

Again, good luck, and hopefully someone has some better advice.

I do not know the person with the Boa's. DOn't have boa's myself, nor breed, but wanted to chime in on this.

1. Anya was sold a snake that was suppossed to be a certain type.
2. Snake only had 8 babies in the clutch...probably because of stress or something, but those babies were not what she wanted.

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but I read a snake breeding article stating that normal babies can come out of any other morph. Maybe she was just throwing normals that time? Anyhow, Anya, you stated that you don't see why you should contiune feeding the girl to try and clutch her again next spring. Does that mean that you are starving her? If you are going to not feed her, I will take her off your hands, because I do not want a snake to starve to death just because she is not a money maker for someone. If that is NOT what you meant...I apologize. Also, if that is NOT what you meant, look at is this way.

You still have the snake, and are feeding said snake. You have not gotten your "money" back for said snake. Breed her again next year, sell the babies for whatever the particulars are worth, and make the $650 back that way. Then you are guaranteed to have your money back, and the snake has been well taken care of. Also, after you have sold enough of her babies to recoup your losses, sell her as a proven normal breeder (some people still want normals), and cut your losses.

To Sean Kirk, you need to get off your butt and make this right. Refund her her money and take back the snake. We all have problems every now and then, but we find a way to keep up with our business transactions, whether we have someone else do them for us, or we buck up and do it ourselves.

Chelsea Baker