Inquiry, Denise Latanzi AKA, Denisebme www.Calidragons.com

Originally Posted by Neverland Dragons

I lost 40 plus babies to this virus last season

With due respect Wendy, was it necropsy proven that your babies died from this virus? Same question for you Tere. Or have you both just assumed that because your colonies tested positive that was the cause of some of your babies dying? Consider the concept of "true, true, and unrelated". It's used in medicine all of the time to describe events that occur coincidentally but are not related to one another causally. Google the phrase and you will probably find thousands of medical type hits. The fact is that presence of virus and dying off of some offspring proves absolutely nothing. There is no doubt that some dragons have died from viral infection, but it may be 0.01% of those infected. Is that significant?

As for Denise, I smell a bit of rotten tuna here. Either she had a blood test done or she did not. Her refusal to name the lab which performed the test despite multiple requests suggests that she has been less than forthright in her claims. She can easily clear this up but chooses not to do just that.

Mark, claiming negative testing, even if true is relevant because some people will choose to buy from those making such a claim and it will put them at a competitive advantage. But, as we all know, an animal can be infected and have multiple negative tests if it isn't shedding. For all we know, this virus can be as relatively "innocuous" as the chickenpox virus which lives forever in every human who has had the disease but is shed and transmitted only occasionally. Testing me for viral shedding of that virus would show me to have been negative for the last 40+ years but I could have an outbreak of Herpes Zoster (Shingles) tomorrow and be shedding and infecting like crazy.

As I said in a thread before, there have been no prospective, controlled, peer reviewed studies on this subject so all that is going back and forth about this virus being a huge killer of colonies is anecdote.

And no, I have no horse in this race. I do not breed beardies and have no current plans to breed them. I haven't tested my few "pet" beardies because they are outwardly healthy and thriving. For the record, and to avoid any appearance of conflict of interest, I know Vickie Dachiu. I bought from her and would again, and care not if she has tested or not. I would wager however that her colony has been exposed, as I would make the same wager for all other large scale breeders. Again, just like most all of us have been exposed to chickenpox.

My opinion, for what it's worth, is that this is all a tempest in a teapot.

Tere, I'm confused.

How can Denise proving that she did PCR tests be detrimental to her? It seems to me that if she can prove the tests were done and that the outcome was indeed 100% negative that only good could come from getting this out to the public.

I don't see why she should be held to any lessor standard than anyone else, nor one any greater.

If she's done the tests, as she apparrenty attests, and they were done properly and they were negative, why NOT share the results?

"Someone somewhere else named alot of breeders that where not mentioned in the possible spread of this as having high color morphs..

That may or may not have this Adenovirus or as to Mentioning testing one way or another

One named I found this am that was left off the list was Alpha Dragons
he has high color morphs also and he exports these animals

Again not to say he has it but he also was left off the list "

Where is this list in it's entirety and will the authors and all participants contributing information for this list please provide thier names?

Saladragon: It means that Denise is still going to do it exactly the way she originally said she would do, which is to present proof that she PCR tested in a manner that she's still protected

.

What is it that she is protecting? No one claims to have all clean tests but her. What could anyone do to her about her results that needs to be protected?

Everyone that is testing has positive results but her.

It does not add up, also that is a very lame excuse at best.

Originally Posted by Wilomn

Tere, I'm confused.

How can Denise proving that she did PCR tests be detrimental to her? It seems to me that if she can prove the tests were done and that the outcome was indeed 100% negative that only good could come from getting this out to the public.

I don't see why she should be held to any lessor standard than anyone else, nor one any greater.

If she's done the tests, as she apparrenty attests, and they were done properly and they were negative, why NOT share the results?

Wes,

I'm sorry. I should have been much clearer. I haven't had all my coffee yet this morning. Forgive me?

I should have stated that were Denise to post her results on a private message board, they could easily be altered and used by someone trying to show they have a negative colony.

It's already been proven on another thread that watermarks can be removed with little or no damage, and I'm sure a plethora of other things could be done. I'm certainly no computer expert, so I can't list the number of things that could be done to accomplish any alterations. I also can't think of any ways to protect that document.

It was also proven on that same thread that these type of test results are in high demand, as someone has already faked their results to appear they have a negative colony. How that was accomplished or why, I don't know. I just know it was done.

Denise is well aware that she's the only person publicly claiming to have a negative testing breeding colony, and because of that, her test results are in high demand.

Denise has been working closely with her vet trying to come up with a way to have her results verified for potential buyers, but there has never been any rush on it because she currently has nothing for sale.

She has put a rush on it, but is still trying to accomplish informing everyone here without having a hard copy of those results available to the general public to use as they please.

Hopefully that made some sense.

Originally Posted by varnyard

I never said minimized threat, it is killing dragons, there is proof of this everywhere. There are also dragons that do live with it.

I also never stated ethically alright to breed these animals anywhere. I have not said that is was fine to breed them or sell them.
What I have said is that it is wrong to be the only one that claims to have clean dragons and claim to use testing on this virus there is no proof of.

To claim to be the only one to have 15 clean dragons, (all of her dragons) IMO, needs to be backed up with proof. Before she makes the same claims when she starts selling babies.

No other breeder that has tested has clean dragons, what does that tell you? Where did she get all of these clean dragons, when everyone else has the virus in theirs?

Here is my issue Bobby the breeders you have spoken up for refuse to test and one has even stated that it is very likely his dragons have been in contact with the virus. Yet you have not questioned them and asked why they continue to sell dragons. I understand that Denise is the only one to claim to have a clean colony and I am very aware of the advantage she could have if the virus proves as dangerous as it is percieved, but she is not selling dragons at this point but there are those who refuse to test that are selling dragons that are more than likely infected with a virus that you yourself has stated kills dragons.

In my opinion many are getting stuck on one persons test results and clouding the real issue which is selling infected dragons. It seems that the real issue is getting deflected with smoke and mirrors. The point is no one really knows the extent to how dangerous the virus is, many do agree that it is effecting the health of dragons and is spreading. People are refusing to test their dragons knowing there is a very good possibility that they have infected dragons and they are selling these dragons. Hopefully Denise will post proof and does have a clean colony and that there is a chance to keep some clean otherwise it is possible that the biggest fear is realized and that is that the virus is so widespread you won't be able to get a clean dragon and the bearded industry as a whole will be devastated. Ironically the one's being questioned are the ones trying to save the bearded business while the big breeders who this could effect the most are ignoring it.

In my case I had a necropsy done on a 2 1/2 week old and a 6 week old. The cause of death was listed as adenovirus in bearded dragons. I had babies dying and knew that was not normal, so I found the cause then tested my colony to figure out where it originated from. So yes, the necropsies I had performed showed adenovirus and then I proceeded to test my colony.

Otter_23: Here is my issue Bobby the breeders you have spoken up for refuse to test and one has even stated that it is very likely his dragons have been in contact with the virus. Yet you have not questioned them and asked why they continue to sell dragons.

Mark, I can not control what other people do, and if you ask me, I think there is no such thing as a beardie in our market that is virus free. The numbers keep rising, it is a very sad day for the keepers and breeders of these animals.

That said, how many breeders are selling babies as well as raising beardies, not even counting all of the wholesalers and keepers? The BOI would be a full, as well as a lifetime of posting to address everyone of them.

So why would you think that I should address a few, when the facts above remain? JMHO.

Originally Posted by varnyard

Mark, I can not control what other people do, and if you ask me, I think there is no such thing as a beardie in our market that is virus free. The numbers keep rising, it is a very sad day for the keepers and breeders of these animals.

That said, how many breeders are selling babies as well as raising beardies, not even counting all of the wholesalers and keepers? The BOI would be a full, as well as a lifetime of posting to address everyone of them.

So why would you think that I should address a few, when the facts above remain? JMHO.

Oh my gosh, Bobby! I actually agree with you! However, just because people are doing it, doesn't make it right.

To come on a forum like this and say you are AV free but show no proof is crazy at best. Why would you open yourself up for questioning? Saying that you got a test done that no one else can find any info on is also nuts.
The "other" one who was saying she was AV free was talking all that smack about not posting her results of fear someone would steal it and use it themselves.
What the hell? Thats what she was doing!
I don't think anyone asking for some sort of proof is in the wrong. We DESERVE as breeders/hobbyists to know that there may be light at the end of the tunnel.
And where has she been for the last while? She started this by coming out and stating she was AV free. No one asked her. She should prove it or admit her mistake.
Jim