• Posted 12/19/2024.
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    I am still waiting on my developer to finish up on the Classifieds Control Panel so I can use it to encourage members into becoming paying members. Google Adsense has become a real burden on the viewing of this site, but honestly it is the ONLY source of income now that keeps it afloat. I tried offering disabling the ads being viewed by paying members, but apparently that is not enough incentive. Quite frankly, Google Adsense has dropped down to where it barely brings in enough daily to match even a single paid member per day. But it still gets the bills paid. But at what cost?

    So even without the classifieds control panel being complete, I believe I am going to have to disable those Google ads completely and likely disable some options here that have been free since going to the new platform. Like classified ad bumping, member name changes, and anything else I can use to encourage this site to be supported by the members instead of the Google Adsense ads.

    But there is risk involved. I will not pay out of pocket for very long during this last ditch experimental effort. If I find that the membership does not want to support this site with memberships, then I cannot support your being able to post your classified ads here for free. No, I am not intending to start charging for your posting ads here. I will just shut the site down and that will be it. I will be done with FaunaClassifieds. I certainly don't need this, and can live the rest of my life just fine without it. If I see that no one else really wants it to survive neither, then so be it. It goes away and you all can just go elsewhere to advertise your animals and merchandise.

    Not sure when this will take place, and I don't intend to give any further warning concerning the disabling of the Google Adsense. Just as there probably won't be any warning if I decide to close down this site. You will just come here and there will be some sort of message that the site is gone, and you have a nice day.

    I have been trying to make a go of this site for a very long time. And quite frankly, I am just tired of trying. I had hoped that enough people would be willing to help me help you all have a free outlet to offer your stuff for sale. But every year I see less and less people coming to this site, much less supporting it financially. That is fine. I tried. I retired the SerpenCo business about 14 years ago, so retiring out of this business completely is not that big if a step for me, nor will it be especially painful to do. When I was in Thailand, I did not check in here for three weeks. I didn't miss it even a little bit. So if you all want it to remain, it will be in your hands. I really don't care either way.

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    Some people have indicated that finding the method to contribute is rather difficult. And I have to admit, that it is not all that obvious. So to help, here is a thread to help as a quide. How to become a contributing member of FaunaClassifieds.

    And for the record, I will be shutting down the Google Adsense ads on January 1, 2025.
  • Responding to email notices you receive.
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    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

Florida state law issues

Well I know when I was doing Lauren's shows she did not allow outside animals in unless it was with a Vendor. From what I gathered in this situation the officers asked if vendors were interested in purchasing the Scarlets and the ones that were interested were given citations if they violated the rule by not verifying that the seller had the required license. In Florida anyone selling any animal must be licensed through the Permits of FWS. In this case with the Officers playing the part of having the animals they did not violate anything as they probably did not even have any animals. If they offered them to the vendors and the vendors wanted them more than likely the deal was set up to happen after the doors closed or in the parking lot. Anyone that is licensed and buys animals from an individual must verify that the individual has the required license.

I personally think it is a crock of Horse pucky and the only person that should get into trouble is the person trying to sell without a license. We should not be required to baby sit others in regards to them selling an animal. I can tell you many people online that are in Florida and advertise on KS and other sites that are not licensed to do so. Even to sell online in Florida you must be Licensed. While that should be cracked down big time they (Florida FWS) don't seem to want to pursue that situation but rather take the easiest thing they can and try and get a bust that way.


Also on the question if a person buys an animal and returns is a week or so later, no they would not be violating the rules as they are not selling the animal but rather obtaining a refund. In the State of Florida there is a regulation for Pet Shops (I am not sure if it extends to other sellers such as at shows) that if they sell an animal they must return the animal if there are health problems and such. This is a regulation that is not enforced at all but very well could be. Alot of Pet Stores and sellers have a "No Refund on Live Animals" Policy even though they are not supposed to do that.
 
The best opinion I can get at the big regional wholesaler is that it now all boils down to money. Florida Fish and Wildlife wants to get as many people permitted as possible to keep themselves afloat.
Myself, I do not mind paying the $50.00 per year to keep other idiots off my back. This is what I want them, as the government to do, and what I as the governed pay them well to do.
Of course, Thomas Jefferson is spinning at 15,000 RPM in his grave as I write this, because he never expected our personal freedoms to be so diminished.
 
KY Permit Info ?

Anyone have an opinion on the "inport permit" required in Kentucky? I have been told by certain parties that if you bring a reptile into Kentucky from another state you need a permit. If you travel through KY with a reptile from outside KY you need the permit (such as traveling from Alabama to Indiana via I-65).

Others have been very adament that reptiles are excluded from the import permit statute because they are not native wildlife.

Can anyone shed real good light on the situation in KY. If the strict intrepretation were correct, if ya live in The Bluegrass and go to an out-of-state show and buy a snake, you need the permit to re-enter the state with the snake (well, the snake needs the permit). You'd also need the permit if you were a big Florida dealer (just an example) traveling to a show in Illinois via I-65N would need the permit to enter KY and traverse the state of Kentucky.

BTW - there permit requires a vet certificate for the animals - so it's not just a simple permit.
 
Re: KY Permit Info ?

markwebb said:
Anyone have an opinion on the "inport permit" required in Kentucky? I have been told by certain parties that if you bring a reptile into Kentucky from another state you need a permit.
Click to expand...

Mark,
Yes, that is correct. Any wildlife that enters the state must be accompanied by an import permit.

If you travel through KY with a reptile from outside KY you need the permit (such as traveling from Alabama to Indiana via I-65).
Click to expand...

According the way I read the laws as written, I would think the above statement is true as well. But a call to the guys at fish and game would clarify this.

Others have been very adament that reptiles are excluded from the import permit statute because they are not native wildlife.
Click to expand...

Native or exotic, reptiles are NOT excluded from the import permit statute. Whoever told you this is misinformed.

Can anyone shed real good light on the situation in KY. If the strict intrepretation were correct, if ya live in The Bluegrass and go to an out-of-state show and buy a snake, you need the permit to re-enter the state with the snake (well, the snake needs the permit).
Click to expand...

That is correct. If you went to Columbus and bought snakes, lizards, etc then you would have to have an import permit to bring them back to Kentucky. I thought we had this discussion on the KHS board??

BTW - there permit requires a vet certificate for the animals - so it's not just a simple permit.
Click to expand...

Sorry but this is false. The requirement for a CVI has been waived for reptiles and amphibians. If you go to the Kentucky Fish and wildlife site, the regs are listed.

Hope this helps,
Dwight Good
 
I got your info on KHS, but...........

I did get your good and valuable info on KHS message board, but I was reading the thread here on David Beard's wounded snake and the discusssion somehow evolved to a debate on the KY Import Permit requirements, and some folks in KY who claim to be very close to the legislation said it does not apply to non-native species and they they were in Frankfort for a discussion/intrepretation or the drafting of the legislation and actually had a hand in writing it and that species not native to KY were not implied or intended to require a permit. Someone else - a big breeder (from outside KY but familiar with our laws) - also reiterated and supported this position.

So....I know I am easily confused - but man I am now spinning !!!
 
Well I am glad that I posted this

information when it was brought to my attention through Lauren. We just have to be vigilant, and think in terms of moderation when being approached by anyone we dont know offering "great deals".

Its a sign of "something wicked, this way cometh" and this may only be the beginning of what the fish and game people will go through. A very sad commentary. JERRY
 
I heard that the laws in Kentucky were personally written by the evil jerk who heads their Fish and Wildlife, a guy named Lt. Col. Sanders.
 
I am feeling lousy and was not able to read the bulk of this thread but I just want to interject, based on the origional post, that this behavior you are describing is standard operating procedure for these government agencies for many years now. I myself and many others that I know have been approached at shows in Ohio, Pennsylvania, Florida, Indiana, Illinois and other states by agents attempting to push us into breaking laws by offering animals and/or money to us that they should not have. I have on many occasions called them on this and told them what they were doing and that I knew who they were and what they were attempting. They always respond the same way. They laugh and move onto the next dealer at the show.

I have been 100% cleared by over a dozen agencies at the state and federal level at these shows as an honest guy who would not ever knowingly break the law and have their assesments and documentation to support that and yet I was still run through the ringer by the State of Ohio for a $30 hatchling albino black ratsnake that I sold over 2 years prior to the "big sting" that all of us horrible "poachers" "smugglers" and assorted scum were caught up in.

They are liars and they are hipocrits as they do not give one damn care about the animals but only the revenue raised from the charges that come with the offenses. While they are harrassing people at shows who are standing there for the world to see, the real criminal can go about their work of poaching and collecting as much as they like as these agents evidently do not want to get their shoes dirty by going out into the field to prevent that from happening. Evan Stahl
 
Well said Evan, I also do the OHIO and INDIANA shows from time to time. Although I was not at the show when it was busted. I am sure I would have probably been busted for something. I try not to do anything or have anything illegal but If they want you they will get you for something. I would Like to know HOW in the HELL they can COME TO YOUR TABLE and ask you to buy an illegal animal? Are they not breaking the law in someway or another? If they don't have the animal then how can you(the vendor) break the law? Is it because you would have purchased it? that is bull crap on the part of the officers. I would definitely fight that one with ENTRAPMENT. I am glad I have never had any problems with them in OHIO or INDIANA. I am thinking of doing the Kentucky show but haven't made up my mind if I wanna pay the 25.00 a month for the permit to do the show or If the show has the traffic large enough to warrent making the drive and paying for the 25.00 permit. If anyone has info on the kentucky show post your comments. Thanks DAVID
 
David,

IN this case the animal it self it not illegal to capture, purchase, or sell in the State of Florida. It is illegal to purchase from a person or entity that is not licensed to sell animals by the State FWS. This is what happened here. They acted as they were just someone off the street to see if these people would purchase without asking or without the seller having a license. I can almost guarantee there were no animals even there but only the discussion of the animals. As I said before it is a ridiculous thing and the FWS officers should not be pursuing the buyers but rather the people that are selling without licenses.
 
Yes, Rob I agree. But how in the heck can they bust you for trying to buy an animal that does not exist without the seller having a permit if there isn't any snake to begin with. That still seems like a clear case of entrapment. Because if they pursue you by walking to your table, seems like they are breaking the law buy not having a permit to begin with. But you stated they don't have the snakes anyway. Like I said NO SNAKES NO CRIME. It is hard to get a conviction on murder with out a body....LOL. I don't believe attempting to purchase snakes that are not present is illegal. Like Rob said even if this is true I don't see why they are busting the purchasers that have permits. Doesn't make sence to me. Does anyone know what really went on in florida at the show? Thanks DAVID
 
While I share the sentiment behind many of these posts, I would like to point out that this cannot be a case of entrapment. "Entrapment" is most generally defined as: "the action of luring an individual into committing a crime in order to prosecute the person for it."

In other words, entrapping someone is using deceit to cause someone to comit a crime they otherwise would not have entered into. Going to a person not known for bank robbery, laying out all of the plans and giving him the job of standing watch, while the cops actually do the robbery, would be a case of entrapment. Asking someone at a snake show if they wanted to buy some snakes, and then prosecuting those that did so in a manner contrary to established law, is NOT entrapment.

I recall watching America's Most Wanted once, when the Buffalo police were running a scam on some multiple DUI offenders, who had all had their licenses permentantly revoked. The cops called each person, feigning themselves to be a radio station giving away free tickets to a Bills game. All the "winner" had to do was get to the radio station's offices, and the tickets were absolutely free. Most of them drove there, and they were busted. One guy called a cab, and cops gave him the tickets and patted him on the back. In this case, the exception definitely proved the rule. You didn't HAVE to break the law to get the tickets, hence, it could not be entrapment!
 
Common sense goes a long way folks!

I was a vendor at this show. I was asked to produce my license by an undercover officer. I explained to him that I had left my license in box which was left behind by mistake. I also told him I understood that I was supposed to have my lincense w/ me while at the show. I then showed my business card which has my license number, address, name, etc. all right on it. I APOLOGIZED for being in violoation of what is a pretty simple law, and then awaited my ticket. The officer asked me a few questions, told me he was going to run the number through his computer, and gave me a verbal warning. End of story.

Luckily, I was the first vendor they checked. Because many of the other vendors he approached gave him a hard time. Arguing w/ a member of law enforcement when you are clearly in violation, is not smart. Especially when he has a large ticket book in one hand. An hour after he had checked me, I saw him again, and he was no longer smiling.

The out of state vendor w/o a lincense getting a ticket doesn't bother me in the least. The size of the ticket ($500) seemed quite high, but I don't write the laws. That's what I think many people forget, the officers don't write the laws, they only enforce them. The ticket for the hedgehog was discussed at the show, and we agreed that we did not remember hedgehogs being on the classIII list. The burden of proof does lie w/ the officer, so if hedgehogs are not on the list (website), then that ticket will be thrown out in court.

Now all that being said, I do not agree that a buyer, whether it be me or a 12 year old kid, should have to ask to see a sellers permit before making a purchase. That is excessive.

Another law that lurks in the state of FL is the records law. There is a law on the books which states that EVERY SINGLE ANIMAL you have for commercial purposes (whether you bought it or produced it) must have a certificate of origin. Think about the ramifications of that one for a minute! I'm ordering special receipt books this week, with a place to mark bought/sold, and then every new animal I bring in will have to have one of those slips placed in a file, and kept until I sell it. Every baby I produce will have to be documented!!!! Think about that one. The only loophole to this law is the commercial purposes part. A 12 year old kid doesn't need the certificate of origin for his PET cornsnake. But the wholesaler you sell all your babies to does! Looking at the law, it seems that a simple receipt will do it, but even that is going to be extremely hard to keep up with.

They have written these laws so that they can get us if they want to. Don't piss them off and make them want to.
 
ROB, i was just wondering

what would have happened if someone showed interest in the offer to buy the scarlets , finding out the price looking at the snakes and then asking them if they had a permit? Would that have made a difference? Is their an order to this. Would I become liable if my first response to their offer was not " Do you have a permit? "

The whole episode is pathetic. I was their and saw all the vendors. As you know, it was a small show, everyone was doing their thing, and the atmosphere was very cordial. What possible gain could FW gain from this. What I intend to do is bring flyers to the next show on the 28th, and advise all the vendors to be vigilant when being approached by someone looking to sell. Unless you know whom your dealing with, your fair game. JERRY
 
Brian,

the rule about the receipts has been on the books for as long as I can remember. Yes you are supposed to have records of origin on every animal you have I on hand in stock. You do not have to keep the records with you at a show but they must be made available to the Officer at your place of normal business or residence. Once the animal is sold the requirement to keep the document is gone. At that time you can destroy the receipt. The only exception to this rule is on American Alligators or animals that are protected under ESA, and Venomous Reptiles. Anything normal and non venomous you can throw away the receipts once it is sold. I personally keep all the receipts from when I purchase an animal for 5 years for my own well being. Alot of sellers don't care if they get a receipt when they purchase anything but I always ask for one. That is why I asked for one from you when I purchased those Amazons from you last year in West Palm. You looked kind of funny when I asked for a receipt but gave me one.

Jerry,

Had you or anyone asked the seller right off the bat "do you have your license to sell these animals?" and if they said no told them you were not interested nothing would have happened. But if you ask, and they say they don't or don't have it with them and you purchase the animals you or whomever would be in violation
 
Re: Us Fish & Wildlife Undercover Scam

KNOBTAIL said:
she mentions about vendors being approached to buy some Scarlet Kings. Apparently 3 vendors were interested and they were cited with summonses for attempting to purchase these snakes without knowing whether the seller had a permit! The sellers were undercover wildlife people.
Click to expand...


Possession is 9/10ths of the law.

Does anyone know for a fact if these people (potential buyers/potential sellers) actually exchanged money/animals with each other before the citations were issued?


*attempting to purchase*

Does this imply that the vendors in question were busted without any animals or money ever having exchanged hands and therefore no wrong doing actually occured?

I would think that the only way they can be busted over this is if they (the vendors) actually broke the law... busting someone because the authorities thought/assumed the person was going to go ahead and break the law is I should think not legal and unable to stand up in court. Just because someone is *interested* in an animal does not mean they have broken any laws.

Up until the moment that the animals/money are actually exchanged between buyer/seller no crime has been committed correct? It would only be if the animals/money have exchanged hands and the buyer had prior to that exchange failed to inquire if the seller had the proper permit would the law have been broken and therefore make the citiations issued proper.


Adrian
 
"...busting someone because the authorities thought/assumed the person was going to go ahead and break the law is I should think not legal and unable to stand up in court."

Actually, conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime in itself, and does not require that the conspired upon act actually be committed for one to be culpable. If you and I conspire to commit murder, we cannot ask the judge to throw out the charges because our plans were discovered before we could act upon them.

Further, it is entirely possible for an undercover officer to serve as one member of the conspiracy. For instance, a woman in Texas wanted another woman killed (so the second woman's daughter would be too grief-stricken to be a cheerleader, and the first woman's daughter could be on the squad, no less!), and she got in touch with what she thought was a hitman. Actually, he was an undercover cop, and he was able to testify to what she wanted him to do. Obviously the murder did not take place, and the only one with whom this woman conspired was an officer. Even so, she is in prison in Texas today.

Just a thought ... I also think these are rather small potatos for the FL officials to be raking over the coals.
 
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