• Posted 12/19/2024.
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    I am still waiting on my developer to finish up on the Classifieds Control Panel so I can use it to encourage members into becoming paying members. Google Adsense has become a real burden on the viewing of this site, but honestly it is the ONLY source of income now that keeps it afloat. I tried offering disabling the ads being viewed by paying members, but apparently that is not enough incentive. Quite frankly, Google Adsense has dropped down to where it barely brings in enough daily to match even a single paid member per day. But it still gets the bills paid. But at what cost?

    So even without the classifieds control panel being complete, I believe I am going to have to disable those Google ads completely and likely disable some options here that have been free since going to the new platform. Like classified ad bumping, member name changes, and anything else I can use to encourage this site to be supported by the members instead of the Google Adsense ads.

    But there is risk involved. I will not pay out of pocket for very long during this last ditch experimental effort. If I find that the membership does not want to support this site with memberships, then I cannot support your being able to post your classified ads here for free. No, I am not intending to start charging for your posting ads here. I will just shut the site down and that will be it. I will be done with FaunaClassifieds. I certainly don't need this, and can live the rest of my life just fine without it. If I see that no one else really wants it to survive neither, then so be it. It goes away and you all can just go elsewhere to advertise your animals and merchandise.

    Not sure when this will take place, and I don't intend to give any further warning concerning the disabling of the Google Adsense. Just as there probably won't be any warning if I decide to close down this site. You will just come here and there will be some sort of message that the site is gone, and you have a nice day.

    I have been trying to make a go of this site for a very long time. And quite frankly, I am just tired of trying. I had hoped that enough people would be willing to help me help you all have a free outlet to offer your stuff for sale. But every year I see less and less people coming to this site, much less supporting it financially. That is fine. I tried. I retired the SerpenCo business about 14 years ago, so retiring out of this business completely is not that big if a step for me, nor will it be especially painful to do. When I was in Thailand, I did not check in here for three weeks. I didn't miss it even a little bit. So if you all want it to remain, it will be in your hands. I really don't care either way.

    =====================
    Some people have indicated that finding the method to contribute is rather difficult. And I have to admit, that it is not all that obvious. So to help, here is a thread to help as a quide. How to become a contributing member of FaunaClassifieds.

    And for the record, I will be shutting down the Google Adsense ads on January 1, 2025.
  • Responding to email notices you receive.
    **************************************************
    In short, DON'T! Email notices are to ONLY alert you of a reply to your private message or your ad on this site. Replying to the email just wastes your time as it goes NOWHERE, and probably pisses off the person you thought you replied to when they think you just ignored them. So instead of complaining to me about your messages not being replied to from this site via email, please READ that email notice that plainly states what you need to do in order to reply to who you are trying to converse with.

Florida state law issues

DARIN, I believe the mere fact

that the vendors did not ask if they had a permit was enough to cite them. I could be wrong here, but Rob from RK has a better handle on the Fla laws here. Jerry
 
It does seem to be petty... However, in Florida we have a number of people that go in and out of the business on a daily basis. We have quite a few "station wagon" dealers. These are the people who go to the wholesalers, load up on "cheap stuff" and sell them to anyone for rock bottom prices. They do not have a shop, overhead or do they sell legally! These permits and the way they are structured allow Florida to track and INSPECT the facilities or business's of these people. This has a two fold benefit... revenue and a way to insure the proper care of the specimens being sold. This is what the law was intended for.... I think this reverse sting is not in the "spirit" of the law. They should be possing as buyers and writing citations for those selling without permits. Then again that could be viewed as entrapment as well. Now... if the person came up and said I have one scarlet king to sell...it was my pet..
Then, there is no issue. It's when it turns into what is considered a commercial transaction.I.E. 3 or more specimens and in particular native species. Notice they did not offer an exotic species. I think that was just to add more credence to the fact it was connected to Florida. Since, you still need a permit to sell 3 or more specimens wether they are native or exotic. The permits start at 3 or less, 3 or more, 11 or more etc. Although, it's not on the same level... selling Alligators is regulated just as well..If you sell them you need the permit...if you buy them you need a permit...you must file a transport permit for purchase(If you didn't breed them yourself) and file a transport permit when sold to another permited person. You must keep copies of the origin and sales at all times. There are reasons behind these regulations. Just a thought...it might be easier to simply have a blanket law. Anyone selling 3 or more specimens must have a permit. Anyone, buying 3 or more must have one as well. Anything under this is not regulated or considered a "commercial sale". At least that would make it easier. All laws are a "matter of interpretation" from the officers in the field, to the judge. It might "suck" sometimes but, I think it does more good than harm. Let's just hope the agencies use a little "common sense" when it come to enforcement. I seem to be rambling... sorry NEED SLEEP!
 
I believe government should stay out of our lives, our business, and our hobbies. I grow tired of people using the cops and permits as an excuse to harass people they don't like, and people they feel are competing with them.
 
RAYMOND, I am a bit confused

about your post at least in reference to this situation. If FW wanted to do things the right way, they could have entered the show, provided credentials and checked to see that all the vendors had the necessary permits.

In this particular situation all they did was attempt to intice the vendors into showing interest in Scarlet Kings, and they were cited. Their was no mention as to quantity, or where they were caught or whether they were a pet, etc.

I hardly see the positive side of this as a revenue ploy by the state of Fla. I do see this as a harrasment based on a petty idea some moron came up with at FW. I am just glad that this can go before a judge and hopefully this nonesense will stop.

From my perspective, they can only do this ONCE. I will make sure that vendors are aware at any show I will participate in, and I hope others will follow as well. Thats the only way you can beat these bastards at their own game. JERRY
 
Hrm

Now while I agree with what most people have said about what the officers were doing as being slightly petty (they should be more worried about illegal importers, poachers etc), and Im also not sure if this has been talked about, but the officers actually did nothing wrong from what ive heard in the incident. Going through the police academy, and when I was in the process of looking for a job until I decided to go into a different field, I have a slightly different look then what most have on this subject. Cops or other policing agents are given a bit of leeway when it comes to telling the truth to people either in interrogations or even with busts like this. Its similar to prostitution busts. I did some real quick research on this and this is what I came up with.


"It is not entrapment for a Government agent to pretend to be someone else and to offer, either directly or through an informer or other decoy, to engage in an unlawful transaction with the person. So, a person would not be a victim of entrapment if the person was ready, willing and able to commit the crime charged in the indictment whenever opportunity was afforded, and that Government officers or their agents did no more than offer an opportunity.

On the other hand, if the evidence leaves a reasonable doubt whether the person had any intent to commit the crime except for inducement or persuasion on the part of some Government officer or agent, then the person is not guilty. "

"In slightly different words: Even though someone may have [sold drugs], as charged by the government, if it was the result of entrapment then he is not guilty. Government agents entrapped him if three things occurred:

- First, the idea for committing the crime came from the government agents and not from the person accused of the crime.

- Second, the government agents then persuaded or talked the person into committing the crime. Simply giving him the opportunity to commit the crime is not the same as persuading him to commit the crime.

- And third, the person was not ready and willing to commit the crime before the government agents spoke with him.
"

Im posting this to give a different viewpoint and not to start an argument, even though I have a feeling it might be coming ;)
 
You know what's really amusing about this entire thread? All these people getting bent all out of whack over what happened in Fla., whether it was legal or right or whatever......

The plain and simple is, if you find out what laws you need to follow to sell at these shows, regardless of where you are, and then actually FOLLOW those laws, you won't be in any trouble at all.

It's all well and good that guys like jerry want to be their brother's keeper but, how far do you go? When is it the responcibility of each individual to take care of himself? If you can't follow the rules perhaps you shouldn't be playing the game and these little stings will weed out the rule breakers eventually.

Ask to see a permit if you're supposed to buy from permit holding sellers only. When in doubt PASS. If you don't know what the rules or regulations or laws are it's no ones fault but your own if you break one and get in trouble. Do the research first.

Pretty simple to me.

Wes Pollock
 
My contention is that the rules or even having the rules are wrong to begin with. I would be perfectly willing to debate without getting nasty or personal.:)
 
Wes, do you check the laws in your city every day? Your county? Your state? The federal ones? No. I doubt in fact that you check them very often and the reality is that most show dealers, in the Ohio case and others, have been "breaking" the "law" as it were simply because the law was changed behind closed doors and they were never informed or given an opportunity to do things the new right legal way.

If you are an agency that is supposedly trying to inform and do things by the book, then why not make all your info public and go to shows and give vendors all the info they need. Next show if you come back and they are breaking the law there is no excuse. But how in the hell can you be law abiding when every square inch of this country has different ever changing regulations????
 
Evan WE cannot, But as was said earlier they are just looking for funding either through fines or the permits themselves. My opinion is if they cannot survive on their own then they should shut the mess down and not try and stick the petty laws on US to collect revenue. How much of the money generated goes back to florida wildlife and not the officers(i.e. paying wages or saleries) busting some vender for trying to buy a snake from a kid/officer who either doesn't have the snake or is tired of caring for it in the kids case. How can they Bust you if the enticement animals don't exist? In this case SELLING ANIMALS WITH OUT A PERMIT(NO SNAKE NO CRIM, Because even if he(vendor) aggreed to buy the snakes the officer never even had them, Or just because the Vender didn't ASK for a Permit before talking with the guy about buying a few unwanted snakes, this is crazy. I hope someone got this situation wrong because I would hate to know I am paying the government to do such acts. I know they do some pretty shabby acts but BUSTING someone for not asking if the have a permit to sell animals seems a little out of bounds, What about the officer that doesn't have a permit? Should he then be charged for Attempting to deceive someone in order for them to break the law? I am almost sure I would have been busted because I do several shows in the eastern part of the country and have never heard of this kind of permit where you(the vender that has a permit) has to check everyone you buy from to make sure he/she has a permit. Are any other states like florida? I am now wondering how many times I should have been busted. I think OHIO has a permit like this and Georgia does also. Hummmmmmmmmmm guess I will have to do some checking around. Since I BUY a lot of animals for PEOPLE walking around every time I hit a show. My ending statement IS That THE BUYER of the snakes shouldn't get in trouble if they have the permit required as at most shows the vendors need sometype of permit these days. The only one that should get in trouble is the guy that doesn't have His/her permit when selling animals or It shouldn't even apply to someone that only sells a few snakes they don't want anymore. Thanks DAVID
 
If the agents are going to spend thousands or probably tens of thousands of dollars in salaries and support to do which is in reality petty harassment, I would like to know exactly what law in the U.S. Constitution gives them the power and ligitimacy to do it.

For instance, the Constitution specifically prohibits all States from interfering in commerce. Why am I not required to buy a permit in order to have furniture or a television in my home?

Would that be because the sellers and manufacturers of these products simply are too rich for the agents to impose a permit upon their customers? Or is it simply Unconstitutional?
 
I am surprised that it took Wes that long to

respond, usually he quicker in putting his two cents in when ever I seem to post. But thats about the worth of his statements. Two cents.
What we are dealing here with is a permit violation, not a crime. More than likely it may even fall under an administrative code, certainly not the criminal code. Secondly, the fact that FW cited 3 individuals does not mean they are guilty. That is up to a judge. Its very conceivable that these citations could be thrown out of court as well. We will have to wait and see.
With regard to Wes indicating that it is your responsibility to follow these laws, it is not as simple as Wes implies. As a matter of fact some of these laws can be interpeted many different ways. We do not know until the matter comes before a magistrate whether FW even had the legal right to approach a vendor with the intention of entrapping him the way it was done.
Also, I am not my brothers keeper as mater of fact I was one of the vendors who did not have any reptiles to sell at that show, but I am concerned because I want to insure that people like yourself can enjoy the fruits of this field without fear that one day, you may have a problem yourself and at least you will know that these industry wide difficulties can only be dealt with when we work as group .

Finallly, Wes, if these regulations seem simple to you, and your answer is to just follow the rules and everything will be honky dorie, than your in for a big surprise. In many instances you can easily do the right thing and still be wrong. To a certain extant it even borders on " powers abused " . JERRY
 
States are not at all prohibited from intererring with commerce. Congress has the Constitutional right to regulate interstate commerce, and Florida cannot all of a sudden decide not to do business with South Carolina, nor can Florida charge an import tax upon all products coming from Wyoming. However, Florida (and all States) have every right to determine what is legal to sell in within their own boundaries to a large extent.

Back in the days of the Blue Laws being on the books, I recall folks running over to the Kansas side of the State line so as to buy beer on Sundays, because it was illegal to sell the stuff in Missouri. Was that an interferrence of commerce? You bet it was, but was perfectly legal and Constitutional.

You may not like the way Florida has chosen to exercise her rights as a State in this issue. Even so, it is very dangerous, in my opinion, to suggest that she has no Constitutional right to do so.
 
Do you not see that such a step reduces power at the State level (which is closer to the power of the people) and increases power at the National level (thereby taking it further from the people)? Every time we have an encroachment of States' rights by the National government, we all lose a little bit of power in a very real way.

I'm sorry, but that sort of appeal to the National Constitution frightens me a great deal. I understand why you would want such a quick fix, but it appears to me to be a case of jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.
 
OK, has anyone actually seen the ticket for the scarlet king senario? I personally saw the tickets for the hedgehogs and the out-of-state seller. But I saw/heard nothing about this scarlet king deal. Has anyone ACTUALLY SEEN IT, or can someone get the person involved to come on and post.

If they really did write for failure to check for a license, I seriously doubt it will hold up in court. Think about it, if they can really write tickets for that, they could just sit in any pet store and write tickets all day to every person that comes in and buys an animal and doesn't ask to see the store's permit. They could stand at any booth at the NRBE and write a ticket for everyone who buys something w/o asking.

Ray, your 3 animal thing is incorrect. We had Lt. Rick Brown at our herp meeting last week, and we spent several minutes questioning him on this issue. If you sell/trade/barter even one listed animal (any reptile) you must have a permit. Even if the animal is your pet and you are selling it to someone else so they can have a pet. You can give it away, but if you gain ANYTHING from the movement of the animal you need one.
 
BRIAN, I know you were at the show

as I introduced myself to you. I would think if the buyer has a permit, I dont see whats so importantor illegal about the seller having one if he purchased the animal legally , lets say from a pet shop . This could very well have been the case with these FW people. We dont know what they said to the vendors, but we do know they were cited for not asking if the seller had a permit. The whole thing makes no legal sense at all. The more I look at this creative method for harrasing vendors, the more I begin to realize that maybe in this particular case, Lauren never had any difficulties with FW people. As a matter of fact, they never even went into her shows checking permits, etc. But the went to the trouble of sending in plainclothes FW and caught 3 vendors, one whom I understand is from Wisc and cited them. What a waste of time and manpower.
 
just to clarify the above post

"I dont see whats so important or illegal about the seller NOT having a permit, if he purchased the animal legally. Lets say from a pet shop."
 
Jerry, yes I remember you. I have no problem w/ the guy from Wisc. getting a ticket. If I have to pay for the license, so should he. I also, agree that I (the buyer) should not have check and see that every person I buy from has a license (that is FW's job), that's why I'm asking if anyone has actually seen the ticket. Sometimes these stories get twisted around, and I'm wondering what REALLY happened. I got the email from Lauren also, so I've seen what she wrote. But who knows how many times that story has been told. I'd really love to hear from the guy who actually got the ticket.
 
"I dont see whats so important or illegal about the seller NOT having a permit, if he purchased the animal legally. Lets say from a pet shop."
Click to expand...

That's just what the law says. If you sell an animal, you MUST have the permit required for that animal. They even respond to classifieds both in print and online media. Frankly, I have no problem w/ it. If I'm paying my $50 so should everyone else. I don't think a buyer should have to check permits though, that's a wee bit ridiculous.
 
I Agree With Wes...

Nothing is in black and white ever... I don't do shows, but from what I can tell it does seem that sometimes officers will come and enforce laws that they donot understand. That happens and hopefully it will be thrown out of court. But it seems kinda easy to me... Follow any law that you know about to the best of your ability and you should be o.k... Now that you know this information, donot buy from someone who doesn't have a permit. Simple.... Do I think it is stupid that you need a permit to sell your pet? Yes... But, now that I know this I would get a permit to sell my pet in Florida.. Big Deal.. I probably have this wrong, but from what I understand Scarlett Kings are native to Florida..(???) Why purchase a native speceis? Aren't these laws in place due to the fact that local reptile dealers would probably pillage their local area for any reptile they can sell? Aren't some of these laws also in place due to the fact that we cannot really police ourselves and alot of times their are vendors that are basically death dealers with dead reptiles in cages along with other mite and parasite ridden animals skinny and on deaths door.. Along with discusting importation practices which result in thousands upon thousands of dead reptiles yearly? I cannot imagine what would be going on if somebody did not check on us somewhat, because I still see conditions in Pet Stores and shows that are appaling and I feel should be prosecuted.. Could you imagine going to a Dog show or Store and having to point out dead puppies to the dealers???? I do feel that Jerry trying to warn people is a good thing though... We do have to look out for eachother and the more everyone knows about the laws, the better.
Thanks, Tom Baker
 
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