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Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

ozz465 said:
Brian has to make it right , but to the original buyer, if it came with a pic id and guarantee that may be a different story.
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I have a problem with this and I agree with Chris.

Unless stated in a seller's TOS, if an animal switches hands before being proven, that genetic guarantee should still be in place. Now, I do not know about the paper work obtained with this animal, if any at all, and the whole situation is a bit of a mess, but a bad het. is a bad het. regardless of how someone ended up with it.

I was not aware that gurantees of genetics applied only to the original buyer. That just seems absurd to me.

If you produce an animal and claiming it as something, it better be that.
 
ShadowAceD said:
I was not aware that gurantees of genetics applied only to the original buyer. That just seems absurd to me.

If you produce an animal and claiming it as something, it better be that.
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And if an animal changes hands three times...four times....ten times...is the original breeder responsible to make some huge "compensation" to each of those prior owners for all possible "lost opportunities"? Equally absurd to me.

This debate will likely derail the thread and should probably be spun off into the general business discussion forum.
 
JudyC said:
And if an animal changes hands three times...four times....ten times...is the original breeder responsible to make some huge "compensation" to each of those prior owners for all possible "lost opportunities"? Equally absurd to me.

This debate will likely derail the thread and should probably be spun off into the general business discussion forum.
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No, Cliff is owed nothing. The animal should have been held onto until the eggs hatched (an important step in proving an animal). Whoever is the first one to put the animal in a situation to be proven is the one who should be compensated. However, it should only be the initial purchase price of the animal or an animal of equal value (ideally not a hatchling).

The reason being ... while all those eggs did make it to full term, you do not know, had their been any of the "hypos", if they would have survived. Something could have happened to them. Something can always happen to them, so monetary compensation for potential losses that cannot be proven or substantiated is not logical.
 
ShadowAceD said:
No, Cliff is owed nothing. The animal should have been held onto until the eggs hatched (an important step in proving an animal). Whoever is the first one to put the animal in a situation to be proven is the one who should be compensated. However, it should only be the initial purchase price of the animal or an animal of equal value (ideally not a hatchling).
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I could totally stand behind that reasoning. Now...if the owner of the suspect het refuses any reasonable compensation as not being "good enough"....what then? I do believe that is the situation that has been presented here.
 
What resolution do you want exactly?

At this point, from September 14 to September 28 I did get Brian to respond to a few of my emails and we tried to work a deal out. Brian wanted to just give me a credit for the lone animal that didn't prove. I think that's an absurd thing to offer as what I'm out are the lost clutches. Not only did I have the potential to make 09 Honeybees but I also missed any shot at multiple gene crosses with the new co-dom. It's not just the monetary loss but a real setback for the co-dom project. I don't feel a 2010 animal or two makes up for what was lost but I wanted to compromise and get this behind me.
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Again - what did you pay for the animal, and what EXACTLY did Brian offer in value?

Trying to figure out what you consider to be reasonable compensation as the second owner of this animal.
 
Well see unless Photo Genetic Paperwork has followed the snake how do we know one of the sellers didn't accidently switch the Spider Het Ghost with a Poss Het Ghost or just a normal spider. So without photo paperwork its kinda a lost cause. I sold some things het this and het that. Always made sure they had paperwork or a written receipt at least. But if it transfered hands after that. The seller had to let me know ahead of time so he can make sure I have on file who it is going to and make sure they are the same snakes I sent him/her.
 
I did get paperwork with the Spider from BHB but like most large scale breeders it didn't come with a photo ID.

But again this is all besides the point. Brian already agreed that his het didn't prove out and agreed to make a deal with me. This was done in May and I was told I'd be compensated in July or August when his stuff hatched out. He never followed through with anything he told me and that's what this post is about. Period.

I knew there were going to be some BHB cheerleaders here but really sheeple give me a break. I've got emails from Brian telling me he's going to send me an inventory list to pick an animal from, which he never does, and you guys are trying to go back in time and figure out a way that he doesn't have to honor what he told me.

This is the reason people don't like Fauna and the BOI. It's this hive mind mentality where despite all the evidence people are still going to side with whoever is 'popular'. I don't really get it and I wasn't looking forward to making the post for just this reason.

I don't stand to gain anything from making this post and certainly plenty to lose. If Brian was going to follow through he probably isn't going to now. I only made this public because I felt I had no other option. I tried and tried and tried (40+ emails and plenty of phone calls over six months!!!!) to work something out but if he ignores my emails and won't contact me what else am I supposed to do??
 
The way I see it, the OP SHOULD get something better than a 2010, but if that is all he can recieve, he should at least get a morph 2010 pertaining to the breedings he planned, not just another het.

This is my opinion.

However, if all the OP is looking for is a cash compensation that goes above what he paid for this animal, I have to say he is SOL.

The reasoning behind that is, like I said, no guarantee the hatchlings would have been free of defects or lived. There is no actual lost value because there was no value to be had. You cannot make up a figure of money where none actually existed.
 
JudyC said:
I could totally stand behind that reasoning. Now...if the owner of the suspect het refuses any reasonable compensation as not being "good enough"....what then? I do believe that is the situation that has been presented here.
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As I understand it, that's not the situation. The situation is, the OP hasn't been offered any compensation at all.
 
The compensation should be for a animal equivalent to the animal AS REPRESENTED, not as a hatchling, and not as it is in actuallity.

In other words, he can't give a adult male spider het nothing and say it's fair, and he can't give a hatchling spider het hypo and say that's fair.

When you buy and feed an animal for quite some time before it's ready to breed, only to find out after more than one breeding, that it's not what it was represented genetically as, you deserve to not have to repeat the raising and feeding again just to get what you were supposed to already have.

Given the time frame without contact, I think BHB should have been more concerned. Granted it's just "one snake" but it's important to the breeding plans.

The whole deal is pretty muddied up by the snake having multiple owners now and multiple different breedings where nothing was produced due to the faulty genetics. I would think BHB would be concerned that the one animal has screwed up several breeding plans and would want to do something, and would keep in touch, depsite how busy he is as a business guy.

Like I said, I've only heard good stuff before now, so I hope he will work something out with you. Just because you finally have come public with the issues you've been having is no reason that he didn't sell a snake without the genes it was supposed to have.
 
I agree with those that say that Chris Huffman should be the one that is seeking compensation from Brian. David should be asking Chris Huffman what he is going to do about it, and Cliff should be asking what David is going to do about it.
I don't know what the industry standard guarantee is for hets that don't prove out. I wouldn't think there would be a guarantee at all, unless it was sold as an animal you did not produce. If someone sells a het. that should be it. The guarantee only comes into play if it doesn't prove, and then the breeder is proven to be a liar. Do you then expect that liar to compensate? I don't know that I would buy from someone with a guarantee that claims that if a het. doesn't prove out it will be replaced.
Now, guaranteeing an animal that you did not produce, but bought from a reputable breeder is understandable. You are putting your faith in the breeder and assuring your buyer that you will be responsible if it doesn't prove out.
 
David Bellis said:
I did get paperwork with the Spider from BHB but like most large scale breeders it didn't come with a photo ID.

But again this is all besides the point. Brian already agreed that his het didn't prove out and agreed to make a deal with me. This was done in May and I was told I'd be compensated in July or August when his stuff hatched out. He never followed through with anything he told me and that's what this post is about. Period.

I knew there were going to be some BHB cheerleaders here but really sheeple give me a break. I've got emails from Brian telling me he's going to send me an inventory list to pick an animal from, which he never does, and you guys are trying to go back in time and figure out a way that he doesn't have to honor what he told me.

This is the reason people don't like Fauna and the BOI. It's this hive mind mentality where despite all the evidence people are still going to side with whoever is 'popular'. I don't really get it and I wasn't looking forward to making the post for just this reason.

I don't stand to gain anything from making this post and certainly plenty to lose. If Brian was going to follow through he probably isn't going to now. I only made this public because I felt I had no other option. I tried and tried and tried (40+ emails and plenty of phone calls over six months!!!!) to work something out but if he ignores my emails and won't contact me what else am I supposed to do??
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David, I understand your frustration, but please understand that the majority of us here are asking questions because we want to make absolutely sure the situation.

I am not defending BHB. I think they owe you something and they owe you the time of day to get you what they say they are going to get you but never deliver on. However, I think you are the only one that should be compensated and there is a limit as to what you should actually be compensated.

However, that does not give BHB a right to tell you they will make things right and then not really put forth the effort to do it. The length of time between e-mails is far too much, especially if the seller is wanting to make things right. No, you are not the original seller, but you are the first to try and prove out an animal he produced and sold as a het.
 
ShadowAceD said:
No, you are not the original seller.
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Buyer ... -.-

Would also like to add, BHB said they were making this right, so whether or not they are the responsible party is no longer in question. They took responsibility, but now they are failing at holding onto it.
 
Well I guess after breeding to 4 different girls all het for hypo, and getting 21 eggs u should have hade atleast 5 hypos by the rules of science. Not neccasarily the rules of nature tho. Im not sure how many different lines of hypo there are, but one of them should have been compatible atleast. Granted breeding to a visual would greatly improve the issue for the OP

If I sell an animal as a het that I produced then I will stand by that garuntee for the life of the animal. I dont care how many people had there hands on it. Now who to compensate is the issue here, Really what should happen is the original buyer be reimbursed by BHB, then that person reimburses OP, and then OP reimburses their buyer. Unless there is paperwork and then whoever has the animal with papers should get reimbursed.

As for the nonvisual offspring that were produced, they should be bought back by BHB and bred out to comfirm the lack of genetics.

Have u ever thought of asking BHB for a related female from the same clutch for a trial breeding?

That would help support the genetics, or is the animal in questions mother was the one with the hypo gene to breed it back to her.
 
That's also a good point, instead of giving a adult male spider het hypo, he could offer a hatchling that would have been produced. Since he offered to send a inventory list for them to work out what would be considered fair by both parties, it's obvious that BHB intended to compensate for the mistake.

But when he forgot to send it, and then ignores the situtation, should the OP then just eat the situation instead? How long past the "due date" of compensation is okay? If he'd been still talking back and forth, that'd be one thing, but when he ignores it, that's different.

This is of course assuming that the OP's facts are all correct, which there's no reason to dispute yet. And it doesn't matter what dollar amount was paid for the original animal. The OP can say "The original purchase amount.. plus XXX.." or whatever, without needing to mention the actual dollar figure.
 
Utta said:
As I understand it, that's not the situation. The situation is, the OP hasn't been offered any compensation at all.
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If that's the case, then why has the OP repeatedly ignored these questions?

rabernet said:
What resolution do you want exactly?

Again - what did you pay for the animal, and what EXACTLY did Brian offer in value?

Trying to figure out what you consider to be reasonable compensation as the second owner of this animal.
Click to expand...

And I don't think it's all that wise to call folks "sheeple" just because they question how you're going about this. SHOULD Brian have been more responsive and followed up on promised actions? Yes. But I do believe there are details of this story that are being left out...like what Brian originally offered and how the OP continues to demand more.
 
Yeah it will be hard to determine what will make the situation right. Unless the OP bought the animal right after his friend got it from brian. As market flucuates too much. Usually what people want when a het don't prove out is one of what they would have produced with it. As usually after waiting 2-3 years to breed the animal the price of that het is what the visual form would be lol. So I have seen most cases where like in this case the spider het ghost would be replaced with a honeybee. But its something the person being refunded and the person refunding have to come to terms with. Some others would just replace the adult spider het ghost with another spider het ghost.
 
I say you go through the inventory list on the site and if he gave you a quoted refund pick something out and ask for it. As he has a website that is usually up 90% of the time might not be completely updated but best way to go about it if he don't have time to get you a list.
 
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