Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[DaveyFig]

One of the things that I have been thinking about for a bit, and pondered over a cup of coffee and some aquarium gazing, is the comments about a breeder being held responsible regardless of how many times the animal changes hands. While it can be said (and was) that genetics don't change(If it was a het, it always is a het.), we also have to take into consideration that our knowledge of the genetics does change. As soon as one person proves that the animal is not a het. the liability stops there. Whoever files the initial claim, or if there is no claim, the last person to own the animal should be compensated. The het did not prove for Cliff, but David had eggs, or at least gravid females. If David had held onto the male until he proved it, he wouldn't be in a position to owe Cliff anything. Also, a waiting period equivalent to a proper quarantine at Cliff's place would certainly have given David time to hatch the eggs and see that none were hypos as well.

 

[TheVipersHouse]

Not Defending anyone here just stating my opinion on it .


Well the fact that breeding het x het isnt always going to produce every time you breed them together . you could breed it 3 years in a row het x het and not prove it out , but take 1 year and breed it to the visual morph and produce it that year .
before you can say the animal DIDN'T PROVE OUT you need to breed it to the visual morph . then and only then you can make the claim .

and as far as the time frame about "Finish Tomorrow " or whatever i been talking with Brian For 3 weeks now (or at least trying to talk to him) on a trade deal . and its next to impossible cause of him being so busy .

Honestly until you breed that Het to a Visual i dont see how you can just jump to the claim it didn't prove out . All the years i have been doing this the Biggest Warning i have always heard was if you breed het x het your odds are slim .. Thats why all the bigger breeders tell you , your best off to breed a Het x Visual pairing . JMO

 

[rabernet]

There's no secrecy but you can keep defending BHB and coming up with conspiracies all you would like.

I didn't post it originally because it isn't relevant to the situation except in the minds of the people looking for something to attack me with.

Funny how no one is calling for Brian to respond here. Oh wait, that's right, he's the big breeder and is obviously right 100% of the time. What was I thinking?

Since when does asking questions to fill in some gaps constitute attacking someone?

Asking the value that Brian agreed to compensate you is relevant, if you weren't happy with it, as you stated.

 

[Casey Hulse]

There's no secrecy but you can keep defending BHB and coming up with conspiracies all you would like.

I didn't post it originally because it isn't relevant to the situation except in the minds of the people looking for something to attack me with.

Funny how no one is calling for Brian to respond here. Oh wait, that's right, he's the big breeder and is obviously right 100% of the time. What was I thinking?

I'm not sure why you think throwing insults at anyone who questions you is appropriate, you say you know how the BOI works, yet you get defensive and act paranoid if additional information is requested?? I have not tried to defend Brian as you imply. I am just asking questions that several others asked as well. You should not bother bringing a post to the BOI if you do not want to face a little scrutiny yourself.

 

[SnakeGirl3]

If a breeder has to supply everyone who claims to have animals that were produced by them, and had multiple clutches they want compensation for, then scammers have at it indeed. Now that the the animal has been "proven" to not be a het, nobody after Cliff gets compensation right? If YOU had waited to prove it, it would be nobody after you.

before you can say the animal DIDN'T PROVE OUT you need to breed it to the visual morph . then and only then you can make the claim .

Both very excellent points and very well put.

 

[huff747]

David made me aware of this thread and I just thought I would add some info about the original purchase/sale to David.

David and I have known each other for many years. I have also worked with Brian for many years, buying many thousands of dollars of balls from him, and I want to keep my relationship with both as good as I possibly can. So I will just lay out details as best as I can remember them around the original male.

David and I regularly exchange emails about our breeding plans and what we have for sale and so on. So I was talking to David about our plans, he says he's thinking of selling a bigger Pied female and I say I think I would like to try and get her from you. We discuss and settle on a price, I believe $3000. At this same time I'm also working on a relatively large purchase from BHB, I don't remember the exact animals involved but I know a Mojave Spider was part of the deal so it wasn't a small order (remember this was a few years back so prices were higher). David said he too had talked to BHB about purchasing a Spider Het Ghost male and Brain had quoted a price to him of I believe at the time $1750.

So I tell David I will call Brian and see how much I could get the Spider Het Ghost male for if I add it to my existing order thinking that I may get a price break due to the size of the existing order. David says great, if you can get it for less than $1750 and I wanted to buy it that he would credit me the $1750 towards the big pied female. So I call Brian (even telling him that it was for David) and he says I can add the spider het ghost male for $1500 so basically it works out for everybody. Brian sells another snake on an order to me, David sells a pied and gets a spider het ghost that he wanted, and I get the big pied female and save $250 over what I would have had to pay for her outright.

Brian ships the order containing the spider het ghost male, I get him in and turn around and ship him right on to David since he was never really for me. David can keep me honest but I believe I have sent David a copy of the receipt from BHB for the original purchase. I was not provided a photo ID from BHB, but I also never asked for a phot ID as I have a long relationship with Brian so the thought didn't even cross my mind.

I haven't made it all the way through this thread yet, but I did see one post accusing me of ripping off David. To that all I can say is No Way! To be 100% forthright I would have preferred David had bred the het male to a homozygous female before going this far. I hope that doesn't offend David but I do feel that way. I have missed on het x het clutches myself before proving them the following year. And this year I even missed on a clown x het pairing that had produced 4 clowns for me over the last 2 years, granted the clutch was small this year (4 eggs and only 2 made it). Another very close friend of mine missed for 3 straight years trying to make Piebalds from Hets before hitting a pied.

I know this isn't proof of anything and I think my reputation on these boards supports that I strive to be very professional and honest in my dealings with everybody. And David and Brian are essentially my main two suppliers of animals so it is and always has been in my best interest to be completely honest and straight forward with both of them and I would never do anything to either of them (or anybody else) to jeopardize that. Between the two of them I would guess that perhaps half of my collection comes from animals directly obtained from them.

I believe that is all the detail I have to add to this thread, in my book both David and BHB are still Great people to deal with and I hope I laid out the details as completely and impartially as I could.

Thanks.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

That's the story I've heard... Definitely plausible... Brian??

 

[JBartolett]

A few questions/points for the OP

I think the reason people were asking what type of compensation you were asking for was to make sure you were seeking fair compensation. If you were looking for $10,000 in compensation, that wouldn't seem like a fair request. The amount you stated when you finally posted seems, to me, reasonable, and judging by the response from brian you posted, he didn't seem to think it was unreasonable either.

I understand that you are saying brian knows the original buyer well enough to know this is not a scam, but step back and look at from outside your string of events-people are going to look at this situation with a bit of skepticism. You have a large, well known breeder being called out on a snake from someone who did not originally buy it from him and that does not still own the animal in question. You have to admit, from the outside looking in, it smells of scam. That being said, after reading through everything, i don't think it is a scam.

Did brian know you no longer actually own the animal in question when you contacted him? I understand it is extremely frustrating to have such a difficult time getting resolution on this, but if Brian knew that you did not originally purchase the animal, you no longer have the animal, and you are seeking compensation, and he was even willing to work with you at all, it has to say something about his character. Are the others invovled seeking any compensation?

finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

 

[Casey Hulse]

Thanx Chris for the logistics of the deal.

When I asked for a Desert cross, or something in that price range, that was with a kick back in mind.

I understand and kind of forgot about that kick back idea.

What is 'kick back"? Just a little additional cash for a higher end animal?

 

[rabernet]

finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

That was something I was actually thinking about and wondering. Because if it proves out for your friend, then Brian really owed you nothing in the way of "making up" for your not producing any visual animals. It would have just been bad luck.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

A kickback would be sending some offspring his way as David knows exactly what he is doing... My interpretation at least??

 

[JudyC]

I do think it would be wise of Brian to come here and give HIS side of the story. I honestly don't believe any party in this misadventure is out to rip anyone off. There are no scams going on here.

But misunderstandings? Unrealistic expectations? Yeah...most likely.

I don't think there is a court in this land that would award damages based on unpredictable clutch results. But since Brian accepted responsibility for the genetics of the animal, then you are due some sort of recompense. HOWEVER....if Brian refunds you monies spent base on the potential value of the animal...isn't he also entitled to have that animal back in his possession? If you take a product back to a store and say, "This isn't what I paid for, I want my money back"...they'll give you your money back but you also have to return the product. How can that happen if you don't even own it anymore?

 

[Casey Hulse]

if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

I doubt that this snake will be bred to another het. if the owner feels he is not a het. it would be a waste of a season.

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I'm sure Dave and Cliff would be glad to ship him back at Brian's/Chris's expense after compensation..

 

[rcpreis3]

I think the snake should be sent back, but then again what would a bigtime breeder like Brian want a male spider? he'd prolly lose money shipping out the replacement, paying for shipping on the spider to come back, and then have to pay to ship it again to a buyer

just my $0.02

 

[JBartolett]

I doubt that this snake will be bred to another het. if the owner feels he is not a het. it would be a waste of a season.

I agree. But that would leave the owner with, as far as they know, nothing more than a male spider. I'd at least want to breed it to a visual hypo just to make sure, at the very least you are making the animal you thought you were getting in the first place.

 

[ozz465]

But again this is all besides the point. Brian already agreed that his het didn't prove out and agreed to make a deal with me. This was done in May and I was told I'd be compensated in July or August when his stuff hatched out. He never followed through with anything he told me and that's what this post is about. Period.
Very true if he agreed to compensate you u should be compensated .
I knew there were going to be some BHB cheerleaders here but really sheeple give me a break. I've got emails from Brian telling me he's going to send me an inventory list to pick an animal from, which he never does, and you guys are trying to go back in time and figure out a way that he doesn't have to honor what he told me.
I don't really see any cheerleaders here , ill say it for only myself since i don't know anyone here , I really could care less of either bhb or you since it doesn't affect me either way , but my interest lies in the FACTS and seeing someone get what they pay for ,nothing more nothing less.that's why the BOI is for .
This is the reason people don't like Fauna and the BOI. It's this hive mind mentality where despite all the evidence people are still going to side with whoever is 'popular'. I don't really get it and I wasn't looking forward to making the post for just this reason.
I dont like to sound like the BOI hounds here but for a site you seem to dislike you gladly use its features
I don't stand to gain anything from making this post and certainly plenty to lose. If Brian was going to follow through he probably isn't going to now. I only made this public because I felt I had no other option. I tried and tried and tried (40+ emails and plenty of phone calls over six months!!!!) to work something out but if he ignores my emails and won't contact me what else am I supposed to do??

and i agree with you here , he agreed to make it right according to you and now u have been ignored , not right at all.

 

[tomini]

wow

well in my thoughts i would say that chris got the snake, then sold it to david and david tried to prove the het.. its like driving a car with an extended warranty.. someone goes and buys a car from a dealership new it comes with a factory warranty and then they go and sale it to someone else 99% of the time the factory warranty still stands until the given time or mileage given.. so if david nor cliff could prove the het then there for the warranty still stands and he should get the value of the snake back no matter how much it was.. if he paid 1200$ for it then he should get 1200$ for it.. bhb is huge and i know that but just like all big corps they dont really look at the lil man when something goes wrong.. brian should have had someone taking care of this issue when it was first presented.. he has 100,000s of snakes he could have given in response to the claim but yet he chooses to be stingy or stall for hatchlings.. you deserve alot more then the value of the snake in my opinion. time is money and money is something alot of ppl dont have but we all know bhb has tons of it.. im a small breeder and i know i want that warranty on the animals i buy.. thats my money no matter how many ppl who have owned it before me.

 

[JudyC]

I think the snake should be sent back, but then again what would a bigtime breeder like Brian want a male spider? he'd prolly lose money shipping out the replacement, paying for shipping on the spider to come back, and then have to pay to ship it again to a buyer

just my $0.02

If I were in Brian's shoes, I'd want the animal back. I'd put him with a visual (at least one) to prove once and for all if the animal is het or not. Then at least he'd know...and could then resell it as a PROVEN het or sell it as simply a spider.

Also, if Brian goes above and beyond the call of duty to compensate for potential clutches...then he should expect that level of compensation BACK if the animal proves out as truly being het.

 

[David Bellis]

A few questions/points for the OP

I think the reason people were asking what type of compensation you were asking for was to make sure you were seeking fair compensation. If you were looking for $10,000 in compensation, that wouldn't seem like a fair request. The amount you stated when you finally posted seems, to me, reasonable, and judging by the response from brian you posted, he didn't seem to think it was unreasonable either.

But really, so what? What does it matter if I was asking for $1,000,000 or a normal corn snake. Brian agreed to it and then wouldn't follow through. I didn't originally post the amount because I didn't find it relevant. If Brian was still sending me emails last month telling me he'd get me an inventory list it seemed fairly obvious to me that I wasn't trying to get anything crazy from him. You guys thought it was a big deal so I posted it.

I have nothing to hide here, I just didn't think it would be necessary to post 45 emails in the thread. If I'm a little defensive it's probably because I knew I'd be spending lots of time defending myself against people who had nothing to do with this transaction. I think this thread would be very different if I weren't saying something about BHB but maybe I'm crazy.

I understand that you are saying brian knows the original buyer well enough to know this is not a scam, but step back and look at from outside your string of events-people are going to look at this situation with a bit of skepticism. You have a large, well known breeder being called out on a snake from someone who did not originally buy it from him and that does not still own the animal in question. You have to admit, from the outside looking in, it smells of scam. That being said, after reading through everything, i don't think it is a scam.

Why? Brian has known the history from start to finish and if this was a scam or if I'm slandering him then please, sue me. I've shown a mountain of evidence and can't even get a response from Brian and yet you're all grilling me. And then you wonder why I'm defensive.

Did brian know you no longer actually own the animal in question when you contacted him? I understand it is extremely frustrating to have such a difficult time getting resolution on this, but if Brian knew that you did not originally purchase the animal, you no longer have the animal, and you are seeking compensation, and he was even willing to work with you at all, it has to say something about his character. Are the others invovled seeking any compensation?

Yes, Brian knew all of the details from start to finish. Telling someone you'll do something multiple times and then never doing it does indeed say something about his character. What it says I guess we'll have to disagree on.

Yes, Cliff was also working out a deal with Brian and I hope this doesn't screw it up for him. The last I spoke to Cliff though he was told he'd get an inventory to pick from that he never saw either. But as I've stated multiple times, if Brian doesn't compensate Cliff **I WILL**.

finally, if Brian does give you compensation, and next season that male proves out (stranger things have happened), would you make mention of it on here and send the snakes he gave you back? Not trying to jump on you, just curious.

Make mention of it and send the snakes back?? I would start a new thread with a huge apology just for starters. You don't think this crossed my mind at all, that it's been bad odds after bad odds? Of course it has. But after four clutches and 20+ eggs I'm 99.999999999% sure he's not a het. And I think Brian felt the same way which is why he told me for six months that he would do something.

But he didn't.