Bad Guy BHB reptiles "het" didn't prove out, won't fix it

[q.maley]

There is nothing "legal" about the BOI. It's a collection of points and opinions of individuals that are formed through good and bad business practice. That being said, if Brian agreed to work with him, then he needs to follow up on that but it is NONE of yours or my business to sit here and blah-blah about it.

My "pretty little mouth" wouldn't have gotten me into this stink in the first place. BUYING A HET ANIMAL is a gamble. If it didn't prove out, it didn't prove out - no one promises anything when it comes to a het animal.

And ShadowAceD: There is no common ground or concrete factual basis here. Don't tell me where or when I can be, you're sadly misled to think it is appropriate to express a narrow opinion on me due to my own idea or take on this.

 

[ShadowAceD]

I agree with that (btmexotics and DaveyFig).

A line needs to be drawn. It's a bad roll of the dice or a poor draw, whatever - it's a heterozygous animal, what more needs to be said? Agree to disagree and go on about your business, it wasn't going to make or break any of them and it isn't the end of the world.

Here is the problem with that.

Brian of BHB has AGREED to compensate David. He took on the responsibility of the animal having poor odds or failing to prove all together. That was his decision as an adult and a business owner. Whether or not he should have taken responsibility is no longer relevant in this situation because he chose to do it. Perhaps he no longer agrees with making that decision, but it is too late for that.

It is not about making or breaking anyone, it is about principle. Someone said they were going to do something and now they are not doing it. They are being childish by ignoring e-mails and phone calls while essentially blowing someone off where they once showed understanding and concern. It is absolutely wrong for him to do that.

It is also irrelevent as to the details of the deal between them because, again, Brian agreed to it. No one forced Brian into the decision.

Bottom line and the reason this thread is here ... Brian promised something to David, knowing the situation the animal coming from, knowing the situation the animal had been sold in, knowing that he had attempted only het. to het. breedings and he still agreed to do something about it. That was, again, his decision and no matter if people agree with it or not, that is how it stands.

Brian is failing to fulfill an obligation he took on. Period.

 

[DaveyFig]

I am not trying to say David is a bad guy...far from it. I don't want that to be misconstrued. I am just saying that, like Brian, David sold an unproven animal as a spider het for ghost. Like David, Cliff proved the animal not to be what he paid for. Like David, Cliff was told he would be taken care of.

 

[ShadowAceD]

How long does Cliff have to wait for compensation? David has told him that he will be compensated regardless of whether Brian comes through or not. Has he? He was told he would be. If he is still waiting for something he was told he would get, where is the difference between that and what Brian is doing?

That's a good point, Davey, but I do not know if the specifics of what is going on between Cliff and David have been made known.

Maybe Cliff is waiting for all of this to pan out. No clue. But I am off the mindset David should have compensated him already. He sold an animal he did not know was proven yet and promised it would prove out. It did not.

So, yeah, not much of a difference between he and Brian right now.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

How long does Cliff have to wait for compensation? David has told him that he will be compensated regardless of whether Brian comes through or not. Has he? He was told he would be. If he is still waiting for something he was told he would get, where is the difference between that and what Brian is doing?

Right! Honestly,I think Brian realized he was getting worked! The fact that the OP really thought Brian owed him something after he already sold the snake to someone else should speak volumes.

If this happened to me I would have chalked it up as a loss and moved on.I have lost way more in this hobby.Its part of the game in my opinion.Buying animals is an investment sometimes you lose.If stocks take a tumble you have no recourse.If you want a guaranteed visual morph shell out the $ and buy one.Anything less is a roll of the dice.

 

[Angel Rojas]

You're certainly correct that a business professional should respond in a timely fashion; however, it is inappropriate to think that an individual would halt their complete daily happenings and scheduled business to clear something like this up on a hair-pin.

The first unprofessional act was to bring this to the public - it was inappropriate. How will it make any bit of difference? Assuming that making a public stink of the situation isn't going to do anything but burn bridges faster and make a fool of ones-self...

The offended party purchased a heterozygous animal - we all know, young or seasoned in the hobby, that there is an inherent risk with a heterozygous animal and that genetics are not a promised addition to the animal. The probability of true heterozygous animal is always assumed, but it is not a promise and there are those situations where it does not prove out.

You couldn't have been serious with these posts. The OP was more than patient with Brian and was nowhere near unprofessional or inappropriate in bringing Brain's horrible customer service to light. Brain sold that animal as a "het" and then stated that he would make it right, but never did. Brian can post all on facebook but can't pick up a phone to end this matter.....I bet that one 30min. phone call would end all this. There are no risks with hets at all, and stating so is damaging the market by putting off potential buyers. If the animal is a het then it will prove out sooner or later. But when you deal with ball pythons that yield such low egg counts, it may take longer than expected to prove the het out. I also believe that if a "het" animal is sold, it should come with paperwork stating the genetics behind the animal, as well a photo of the het for identification purpose incase a dispute is made.

 

[q.maley]

You couldn't have been serious with these posts. The OP was more than patient with Brian and was nowhere near unprofessional or inappropriate in bringing Brain's horrible customer service to light. Brain sold that animal as a "het" and then stated that he would make it right, but never did. Brian can post all on facebook but can't pick up a phone to end this matter.....I bet that one 30min. phone call would end all this. There are no risks with hets at all, and stating so is damaging the market by putting off potential buyers. If the animal is a het then it will prove out sooner or later. But when you deal with ball pythons that yield such low egg counts, it may take longer than expected to prove the het out. I also believe that if a "het" animal is sold, it should come with paperwork stating the genetics behind the animal, as well a photo of the het for identification purpose incase a dispute is made.

If you're simply saying that it takes time for hets to prove out and with low egg counts even more so, why is it you feel I am being absurd for think that it is silly for this to have come to light if the breeder should have acknowledged the low possibilities with a heterozygous animal, with unproven as it is thought, right now.

 

[wyblep]

Ell first of all let me just say that any of you who are saying just let this go its not the end of the world obviously have not been burned on hets before. Put yourself in the OP shoes for one second being out 1500.00 for an animal and being years behind a project because of someone else’s mistake.

And to everyone saying that a het is a pure gamble that there is never a guarantee that you’re getting a het that is absurd. I the animal had a visual parent then it is a het . No ifs and or buts. That animal will prove out eventually. Everyone keeps saying breed it to a female ghost just to be sure. And what happens if it doesn’t prove out then? That female was wasted just to prove out the same results.

Regardless about the het being a het. Where is Brian? Everyone is busy with work, family etc. If he values his business I think he needs to at least take a few minutes to respond to some of these allegations.

As far as Cliff is concerned that should be on David. He sold the animal to Cliff he needs to refund Cliff and get that snake back so he can work out his deal with Brian. Under no way shape or form is Brian responsible for compensating both of the parties involved.

 

[q.maley]

I am not saying it is wrong for him to have been anxious, but to have blown the situation out of proportion on a heterozygous animal is seems a moot point.

 

[ShadowAceD]

Ell first of all let me just say that any of you who are saying just let this go its not the end of the world obviously have not been burned on hets before. Put yourself in the OP shoes for one second being out 1500.00 for an animal and being years behind a project because of someone else’s mistake.

And to everyone saying that a het is a pure gamble that there is never a guarantee that you’re getting a het that is absurd. I the animal had a visual parent then it is a het . No ifs and or buts. That animal will prove out eventually. Everyone keeps saying breed it to a female ghost just to be sure. And what happens if it doesn’t prove out then? That female was wasted just to prove out the same results.

Regardless about the het being a het. Where is Brian? Everyone is busy with work, family etc. If he values his business I think he needs to at least take a few minutes to respond to some of these allegations.

As far as Cliff is concerned that should be on David. He sold the animal to Cliff he needs to refund Cliff and get that snake back so he can work out his deal with Brian. Under no way shape or form is Brian responsible for compensating both of the parties involved.

 

[q.maley]

I agree to agree, and to disagree here. I'm done with it, I just wanted to put in some two-cents and see where it went.

I think Fauna needs a debate team - it would be an epic ordeal.

Everyone has valid points and is coming from personal grounds and opinions. Good luck with it all.

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

You couldn't have been serious with these posts. The OP was more than patient with Brian and was nowhere near unprofessional or inappropriate in bringing Brain's horrible customer service to light. Brain sold that animal as a "het" and then stated that he would make it right, but never did. Brian can post all on facebook but can't pick up a phone to end this matter.....I bet that one 30min. phone call would end all this. There are no risks with hets at all, and stating so is damaging the market by putting off potential buyers. If the animal is a het then it will prove out sooner or later. But when you deal with ball pythons that yield such low egg counts, it may take longer than expected to prove the het out. I also believe that if a "het" animal is sold, it should come with paperwork stating the genetics behind the animal, as well a photo of the het for identification purpose incase a dispute is made.

Than it is equally unprofessional and inappropriate to demand compensation for an animal that may still ,in fact, be a het. By your own statement you admit it is possible that the animal in question could be a het. But you also feel Brian should compensate David.This is a contradiction in philosophy. I mean you are saying Brian should honor his promise and the snake might actually be a het.How is that fair to Brian?

 

[Angel Rojas]

There is nothing "legal" about the BOI. It's a collection of points and opinions of individuals that are formed through good and bad business practice. That being said, if Brian agreed to work with him, then he needs to follow up on that but it is NONE of yours or my business to sit here and blah-blah about it.

My "pretty little mouth" wouldn't have gotten me into this stink in the first place. BUYING A HET ANIMAL is a gamble. If it didn't prove out, it didn't prove out - no one promises anything when it comes to a het animal.

Totally untrue. This year my brother and I will be producing het amel sunfire/suntigers and those animals will come with photos and genetic paperwork and we guarantee that those animals are 100% het and they WILL prove out. And if there ever is a problem with that animal, no matter how many hands it went through, we will ask for a photo of the animal and if it matches the one we have on file, we promise to refund the purchase price of the animal, replace it with a visual, or give the person credit towards another animals. We will work with anyone to make them happy in the end.

 

[rhacadank]

Exactly. I mean the op sold the snake(or trade?).He has been compensated by that already.Why does he get more than that.Where does it all end? Where does one draw the line? I mean everyone who touches that snake gets to bully Brian into giving them a snake or two?

Regardless of Brians original promise does everyone really feel that he should have to compensate the OP if he isn't in the wrong?That is obsurd. Absolutely sounds like getting something for nothing to me.

Thank you Jay,

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

Buying hets is a cheap way to get the desired end result.There is some sort of "sweat equity" involved.At the very least sometimes you have to wait longer than you would if you had the actual morph. I mean people act like someone breeding hets should get the same results as someone breeding homozygous animals. All the benifits but nowhere near the investment. I dont think a het should be guaranteed until it has itself bred and produced the morph.We used to call hets 33%66%and 99% there never used to be a 100%het. I don't think its fair for David to be compensated for a potential loss that hasn't come to fruition and I don't think its fair for Brian to Have to compensate someone for a snake that might very well be het. This is valid to the whole post regardless of what brian said,if that snake is a het brian should NOT have to give anyone anything. And he shouldn't be held to the coals if the dynamic of this scenario has changed his personal position on the matter.

I do feel that David deserves an explanation and a reason for Brians change of heart (if he's had one).

 

[Angel Rojas]

Than it is equally unprofessional and inappropriate to demand compensation for an animal that may still ,in fact, be a het. By your own statement you admit it is possible that the animal in question could be a het. But you also feel Brian should compensate David.This is a contradiction in philosophy. I mean you are saying Brian should honor his promise and the snake might actually be a het.How is that fair to Brian?

I have stated before that the OP may have jumped the gun on proving the het out but I don't think that it's unprofessional and inappropriate to demand compensation for an animal that may still ,in fact, be a het. Brain agreed to to this deal, so I'm pretty sure he thinks it's fair. Brain know that it's hit or miss with het, and I'm pretty sure that Brain know that he can prove the animal out. Therefore, he's not really losing anything as he would sell the offspring, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the OP who had a problem with a snake, Brain said "Hey, I know how you feel, let me make it right with you". And then Brain, for reasons unknown, has not given the what HE has PROMISE the OP in 6 months ( I hope my time frame is correct).

 

[Amelanistic Orca]

I've spoken to Cliff today.. He is blown away with some of the comments here.. So am I.. So are others... Paul Wyble, Diem and a couple others keep on pounding the nail right smack on the head... Good shots guys!! Well; BHB is viewing... I'm done; let's hear it......

 

[Paul Kent]

Ell first of all let me just say that any of you who are saying just let this go its not the end of the world obviously have not been burned on hets before. Put yourself in the OP shoes for one second being out 1500.00 for an animal and being years behind a project because of someone else’s mistake.

And to everyone saying that a het is a pure gamble that there is never a guarantee that you’re getting a het that is absurd. I the animal had a visual parent then it is a het . No ifs and or buts. That animal will prove out eventually. Everyone keeps saying breed it to a female ghost just to be sure. And what happens if it doesn’t prove out then? That female was wasted just to prove out the same results.

Regardless about the het being a het. Where is Brian? Everyone is busy with work, family etc. If he values his business I think he needs to at least take a few minutes to respond to some of these allegations.

As far as Cliff is concerned that should be on David. He sold the animal to Cliff he needs to refund Cliff and get that snake back so he can work out his deal with Brian. Under no way shape or form is Brian responsible for compensating both of the parties involved.

Beat me to the punch

 

[Angel Rojas]

I'm so sorry to double post my my responce is missing so many letters that it looks like my 6 year old typed it..it should read

"I have stated before that the OP may have jumped the gun on proving the het out but I don't think that it's unprofessional and inappropriate to demand compensation for an animal that may still ,in fact, be a het. Brain agreed to to this deal, so I'm pretty sure he thinks it's fair. Brain knows that it's hit or miss with hets, and I'm pretty sure that Brain knows that he can prove the animal out. Therefore, he's not really losing anything as he would sell the offspring, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the OP who had a problem with a snake, Brain said "Hey, I know how you feel, let me make it right with you". And then Brain, for reasons unknown, has not given the OP what HE has PROMISE to give him for 6 months now( I hope my time frame is correct)."

 

[Jay Sommers Reptiles]

I have stated before that the OP may have jumped the gun on proving the het out but I don't think that it's unprofessional and inappropriate to demand compensation for an animal that may still ,in fact, be a het. Brain agreed to to this deal, so I'm pretty sure he thinks it's fair. Brain know that it's hit or miss with het, and I'm pretty sure that Brain know that he can prove the animal out. Therefore, he's not really losing anything as he would sell the offspring, but that's not what this thread is about. It's about the OP who had a problem with a snake, Brain said "Hey, I know how you feel, let me make it right with you". And then Brain, for reasons unknown, has not given the what HE has PROMISE the OP in 6 months ( I hope my time frame is correct).

This is all great but it doesn't look like Brian is getting the snake back.David sold the snake.Now he wants Brian to compensate him for a snake he no longer has.So david gets something and Brian doesn't get the "het" in question. Correct me if I am wrong?Brian can't prove it out if he doesn't have the snake.