Somebody Help Me Sex my Adult Dragon!!!

[Matt2979]

Ok, I know exactly how to determine the sex of any snake that I work with, but I have no idea where to start with dragons. My adult "female" has just started pacing her 75 gallon aquarium and head-bobbing. A true female should NOT do that, right?? When she does it, her beard gets very dark black between all the orange.

I bought "her" as a female less than 2 years ago, and I realize that it was my responsibility to sex "her" to be sure. I'm afraid that I put too much trust in the breeder.

And she's doing semi-slow head-bobs at me NOW!!! Sometimes they are slow, then other times, she almost puts her chin on the flooring, leaves it there for a second and does a quick, jerky head-bob. HELP!!!

 

[Tere Salazar]

It sounds to me like you might just have a little boy on your hands...but yes, females can and do headbob. The only real difference I ever noticed was that they can't get their beards quite as black as boys can.

What would help most is if you could post some pics of her vent area, while holding her tail tail gently upwards. You may well be able to see it yourself, so one bump at the vent means girl, two bumps more by the sides of the tail means boy.

 

[Matt2979]

It sounds to me like you might just have a little boy on your hands...but yes, females can and do headbob. The only real difference I ever noticed was that they can't get their beards quite as black as boys can.

What would help most is if you could post some pics of her vent area, while holding her tail tail gently upwards. You may well be able to see it yourself, so one bump at the vent means girl, two bumps more by the sides of the tail means boy.

Thanks Tere! I feel like such a noob asking this!! LOL...I AM a noob at dragons, as I only have 3 and acquired my oldest (the one in question) less than 2 years ago.

I picked "her" up to look at the vent. There seems to be a single bump closest to the vent, but two right between her hind legs. My wife will be able to help me shortly and I'll take a couple of pics to post. Hopefully that will help more. Her beard does NOT appear to get as black as my males. The one in question is close to 2 years old so if "she" were a he, I would think that this "change" would have happened about a year ago??

My male has already gone through this "change" and he's only about 9 months old. I did introduce them a couple of months ago, but only for a few minutes (he was only about 200 grams and she's probably about 400). I quickly separated them as soon as "she" jumped on HIS back and started biting his neck!! While it did occur to me that she might just be establishing dominance in her own enclosure, that was my first indication that I might have a boy....but again, I'm still trying to figure these guys out!!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well, it just all sort of works out. You may be a noob to beardies...and I'm definitely a noob to snakes!

You'd be surprised just how manly some of these beardie girls can act...yet still be just as girlie girl as the day is long. I had one girl that I swore was a boy, even with her one bump, but headbobbing and beard blacking better than some of my boys...until she laid eggs.

And yes, you're right. The boys mature much more quickly than the girls do...which could be the reason she's just now doing this. At her age, it's about time for those hormones to kick in. Sometimes, beardies will headbob to show dominance, as well as mounting another beardie, so that may be all she's doing.

I think the bumps you might be referring to between her legs might be her femoral pores (both boys and girls have them). The bumps you're looking for are going to be in the tail base. With boys, you may not see so much bumps as much as a dent between the bumps, if that makes sense.

When you post some pics, I'll do my best to show you what I mean. You can also try Googling for some pics. I know the Dachius had some excellent sexing pics on their website at one point in time.

And last but not least, when you post pics, make sure you post one of her...not just her hiney. I can't wait to see this little gal who's got you scratching your head trying to figure her out!

 

[Matt2979]

Alright, by the time I got an extra pair of hands free to help get the "under carriage shots", it was dinner-time! Here are a few shots of this girl, "Sunshine". I hope you can see something from this, or at least help me figure out what I'm looking for.

She has developed a lot of color as she's matured. I got her as a basic orange phase dragon for $60 as a baby. I never expected her to get as much color as she has. The boy that I have lined up for her makes her look plain, and his colors are continuing to get brighter and more vivid every time that he sheds.

 

[Matt2979]

Since I was talking about the male that I want to pair her with, I figured I should show him off. Besides, it'll make me feel better since I posted those violating shots of Sunshine!!

First pic is Bonnie (hypo), and the rest are Clyde (het hypo). They were each purchased from a different breeder as future mates. She won't be able to breed until next year, but I'd like to breed Clyde with Sunshine this year. This will be my first clutch of dragons...IF Sunshine really is a GIRL!!!! lol (I'm hopeful!!)

 

[Tere Salazar]

OMG! Sunshine is GORGEOUS!!!! I have such a thing for yellows, and she is just stunning. Her and Clyde will make lovely babies, as will Bonnie and Clyde! Good job picking them. They're all so pretty.

Well, if Sunshine was feeling violated, she's going to feel even more so now. LOL! I think she's a girl, but I need a different picture just to be sure. Can you or your wife hold her belly in their hand with Sunshine's face towards them, butt towards the other person...pick up her tail (gently) so that her tail is lifted way in the air without arching her back, then take a pic of the base of her tail and vent area?

I'm trying to explain this as clearly as I can, but am fighting a migraine, so I'm sure I'm not being as clear as I think I am. Hopefully you'll forgive me!

Anyway, the lifting of the tail will cause the bumps to show a little more prominently.

 

[Matt2979]

FORGIVE you???? Are you kidding? I appreciate your helping me, especially with a migraine. I don't know how you're even on the computer! When I get one, all I can do is lie in a dark room, void of all light and sound. Hope yours goes away soon, and I can certainly wait until it does for more help.

For now, here are some more pics for you to look at when you can see straight. I thank you for your help, and the compliments. Bonnie and Clyde said thanks for the comps, but well...I'm not gonna tell you what Sunshine said! I could tell that she still appreciated the nice compliments!!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well, you tell little MISS Sunshine that she's ALL GIRL...and that next time someone wants to violate her like that, he'd better have roses...and a superworm or 10. LOL!

So on the last two pics you posted, see that little bump right above her vent? That says girl. If you were to see two smaller bumps up the tail a little further and to the sides, that would be a boy. Hold Clyde the same way and check out his hiney compared to Sunshine's. You'll see what I mean. If you can't see his bumps, you'll at least see the dent in between them.

And don't worry about it, please. I'm usually the same way with the dark and quiet...but with the kids running around being heathens, you've given me something to do while I wait for that dark and quiet!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well, duh. I guess I could have posted this earlier. This is from Rob and Vicky Dachiu's website and it's much easier to see what I mean, rather than trying to describe it.

http://www.dachiu.com/sexing.html

 

[Matt2979]

Woo-HOO!! Thanks for the great news!! And nope, I don't see it! LOL...I KIND of THINK I see what you're referring to in one of the pics, but I'll compare with Clyde tomorrow to see the difference. I did look at him earlier (when I still had no idea what I was looking for) and the scales were very dark surrounding his vent, like his beard when he's fired up. Does that mean anything??

And, as long as you're allowing me to pick your brain, I read something a little while ago that I'm curious about. Someone was talking about how his female starts relentlessly digging in the corners of her tank when she's ready to lay eggs. That's what Sunshine was doing before she started her head-bobbing today (the event that prompted me to start this thread). Is there any rush to breed her now? Or should I still have a good chance to try in a few months? I just think that Clyde needs to gain a little more weight.

 

[Matt2979]

Well, duh. I guess I could have posted this earlier. This is from Rob and Vicky Dachiu's website and it's much easier to see what I mean, rather than trying to describe it.

http://www.dachiu.com/sexing.html

Wow! Now I see it, but only because of what you already pointed out in my pics. Thank you!!! (If I breed them, it would help just a bit, if I also knew how to sex them! )

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well, if she's digging, first thing I'd do is make her up a lay bin...just in case. If you need help with that, just let me know. I think I might have a couple of pics, but I know we can find some link with pics, if nothing else.

When you see her frantically digging, like she's trying to make a hole to China, running around just acting crazy, she needs to go in the lay bin. You'll notice a complete change from her normal behavior (which it sounds like you may already have).

How's she eating? Have you noticed any difference in that at all?

Beardies can breed and lay all year long, and can lay several clutches. If you think she might be gravid now, you can always try to fertilize the later clutches, when you feel Clyde is at a better weight. It's not going to hurt Sunshine to lay infertile eggs, just that infertile eggs are much more difficult for us humans to detect.

So it's really kind of up to you. But definitely try her out in a lay bin, and see if she does anything. Either way, you've got plenty of time to get Clyde in there to do his thing.

 

[Matt2979]

Well she can't be gravid, unless that little stinker has been sneaking out at night! I did put Clyde in with her one time, just to see how they would interact. He was about 190 grams and....I really can't remember for sure, but I want to say that she was either right at, or over 400 grams.

There was no way I felt safe leaving them alone for long, no matter what happened. He was in there about MAYBE a minute, the two of them staring each other down. Finally, she charged over to him, jumped on his back and started biting him on the back of the neck. I separated them immediately, scared that someone would get hurt.

How much difference in weight would you say is safe? Or do I need them to be about the same size? He is probably at least 250 by now, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's closer to 300. I'll weigh them both tomorrow (all their lights have been out for over an hour).

Oh yeah, one more important question. Since she is a virgin, will/can she still lay eggs??

 

[Tere Salazar]

Wow! Now I see it, but only because of what you already pointed out in my pics. Thank you!!! (If I breed them, it would help just a bit, if I also knew how to sex them! )

Yay! I'm so glad I helped confuse you even more!

Thanks for bearing with me tonight!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Well she can't be gravid, unless that little stinker has been sneaking out at night! I did put Clyde in with her one time, just to see how they would interact. He was about 190 grams and....I really can't remember for sure, but I want to say that she was either right at, or over 400 grams.

There was no way I felt safe leaving them alone for long, no matter what happened. He was in there about MAYBE a minute, the two of them staring each other down. Finally, she charged over to him, jumped on his back and started biting him on the back of the neck. I separated them immediately, scared that someone would get hurt.

How much difference in weight would you say is safe? Or do I need them to be about the same size? He is probably at least 250 by now, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's closer to 300. I'll weigh them both tomorrow (all their lights have been out for over an hour).

Oh yeah, one more important question. Since she is a virgin, will/can she still lay eggs??

Yes, very important question! She most certainly can be gravid. The eggs just won't be fertile. No sneaking out to her lover's room required!

I wish I could remember what weights we used to breed at, but I honestly can't right this second. (I've converted over to snake weights, so to me, 250 grams just sounds sooooo tiny, even though I know it's not!) I'll try to find some more information in the morning, but I'm sure someone with a fresh memory can help out before then!

Regardless, they don't need to be the same size. This is one where the boys will surprise you how small they can be to get the job done with a much larger girl. You do have one thing already figured out, and that's that they should be supervised during breeding. They're quite a bit more, shall we say, active, during breeding than snakes are (and not near as messy).

 

[Matt2979]

Ok. I knew that they could lay eggs without breeding this time (recently), but I was under the impression that they had to have previously bred at some time. And when I said she couldn't be gravid, I guess I just meant fertile (even though I've seen snakes lay all slugs, eggs or "live", after being gravid).

Wow, then I need to get a lay-box together right away! I thought I had AT LEAST a month after actually pairing them!! Otherwise, I would have made sure I had one on stand-by, by the time that she was a year-old!

 

[Matt2979]

Holy CRAP!! Well, I said that I wouldn't be surprised if he was closer to 300 grams, but when I put him on the scale a little while ago, I was NOT expecting to see it read 327 grams!!

After removing her basking log (for safety reasons), I placed him in the opposite end of the 75 gallon tank from where she was sitting. My intentions were to put her on the scales while he checked out her enclosure, but as soon as I put him in, he ran straight over to her, and she jumped on his back and started doing head-bobs like crazy. He moved away and then did a few "bobs" of his own.

I'm watching closely, still unsure of whether or not I should leave them together. I'm hearing different stories about leaving them alone. Is it ok, if they're getting along while I watch?? Or should they ONLY be together supervised?? This is SO much different from breeding snakes. So far, a LOT more interesting, too!!! lol

At the moment, they have gone back to their "neutral corners", and both are frozen. If they stay like this much longer, I'm going to get a weight on Sunshine. From his 327, I'm guesstimating hers to be closer to 500. Guess switching from crickets to roaches definitely was a great thing!!!

 

[Tere Salazar]

Wow! Those weights sound about right to me for breeding. From what I've been reading (trying to refresh my memory a bit), around 500 grams is recommended for females (and 2 years old, which she is), and I haven't found a good weight for males yet, although I know it's considerably less.

I, personally, would supervise them, just to make sure nobody gets hurt. Males can be a bit aggressive, and it's just better if you're there to separate them if there's an issue.

If it helps at all, I had a male that always bit the females' faces during their little mating dance. We'd always have to remove him, then put him back in once he'd calmed down a little bit, then he'd run over and do his thing. I've seen what the neck biting can do to the females, so I didn't want to give him the chance to do that to one of their faces.

I know they aren't supervised when they mate in the "wild", but supervising is just my personal preference. That way, too, you can remove him if you can see that he's starting to stress Sunshine out. And the other reason is that, as strange as it sounds, their mating rituals are so interesting to watch and can be immensely entertaining!

 

[Matt2979]

Oh, they've been entertaining alright! Well, they were, but have since calmed down and not paying that much attention to one another. She's been mostly digging in this same corner. I picked her up earlier and could not feel anything. I also put her on the scales and she's 473 grams!

As far as weights, I was told that she could go at 300, but safer at 350 and up.

LMAO!! He just jumped on her back and started head-bobbing again. I thought they were done (haven't DONE anything, but dance circles around each other)! Every time I think that I may as well separate them, they "notice" one another again. Seeing them dance at one another is so funny!!