Enough is enough with the classifieds (*or* Why you cannot reply to classified ads)

[hhmoore]

There are announcements posted in the classifieds...

 

[lauraleellbp]

we didn't want to hinder people from asking relevant questions, from pointing out misrepresentations, or posting a BOI link....unfortunately, this is a matter of the problematic people & their behavior affecting the many members that function within the guidelines.

Just so I'm sure I understand this change, these types of posts as listed above are still OK, the only change is that now supporting members are the only ones who can make them?

And that holds true for the OP as well- they can only reply in their own classified thread if they're also a supporting member?

 

[hhmoore]

Those posts are okay, to the extent that they already have been:
I recently posted a thread in this section entitled Disruptive posting in a classified ad - understanding (and avoiding) the infraction. In that I hit on some of the problem areas, and the second post was a quote from Rich. For anybody that isn't sure what is acceptable, I'd recommend taking a moment to read through it. http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246614

 

[WebSlave]

I call horse ****! Micro moderating at it's finest. If an ad smells like fish and your willing to let an unknowing buyer be taken for a ride and not pull that ad, well sir you're as bad as that seller. But to penalize another member for questioning or "badgering" a seller who is blatantly dishonest or is talking out of their arse is just absurd.

I explained my reasoning. Take it or leave it. No skin off my butt either way.

 

[Gary O]

Long Time no chat on here...... But I see that Rich has to put up with the same BS has he has had to for years and years. no matter which way the guy goes he will have a person upset................lol........

Rich, To tell you the truth man i have no clue how you still do it. I would have just said screw it. Any other site owner says this is the way and people say cool or leave. but people sit here and put you down over and over. I am not sure what way is the right way. BUT I do know that any way will tick off someone.... Talk soon bro

 

[WebSlave]

Long Time no chat on here...... But I see that Rich has to put up with the same BS has he has had to for years and years. no matter which way the guy goes he will have a person upset................lol........

Rich, To tell you the truth man i have no clue how you still do it. I would have just said screw it. Any other site owner says this is the way and people say cool or leave. but people sit here and put you down over and over. I am not sure what way is the right way. BUT I do know that any way will tick off someone.... Talk soon bro

Hey Gary,

Yeah, I expected it. I'm thinking I might as well stop ALL replies to the classifieds, even from paid members, and just get it over with.

If history is any guide, some people will get themselves worked up over this to the point where they get banned when their emotions get the better of them.

As for how I keep doing this, I've gotten MUCH better at just ignoring people when it suits me. I discovered that I really DON'T have to reply to every email and PM.....

Of course, I do love a good argument every now and again. Keeps the brain cells sparking better afterwards.

 

[SirenSanJose]

Hey Gary,

Yeah, I expected it. I'm thinking I might as well stop ALL replies to the classifieds, even from paid members, and just get it over with.

Please don't! Give the "paid members only" version a try first, please?

 

[JColt]

I call horse hockey! Micro moderating at it's finest. If an ad smells like fish and your willing to let an unknowing buyer be taken for a ride and not pull that ad, well sir you're as bad as that seller. But to penalize another member for questioning or "badgering" a seller who is blatantly dishonest or is talking out of their arse is just absurd.

They never said they would allow a bad ad to stay. They are just eliminating the attacks. Much easier to get rid of a bad posting then numerous replies that contain ton's of stuff people were asked not to do.

 

[hhmoore]

Before that line of thought goes any further, we cannot offer any guarantees about any buyer, seller, animal, or product in the classifieds. We do not screen ads, or make decisions about who can advertise...the position of this site has, for as long as I've been a member, been that each individual should make the effort to inform themselves about the people with whom they are doing business. The BOI, Trader Ratings, GGC (and the associated polls), and references are among the tools at their disposal. Naturally, they should also educate themselves on the animal or product.

 

[Herp.Herp.Hooray]

Lock it down. No replies!!! Do you really want your numbers to be inflated by spam(bumping) 5000 really nut said!!!

 

[jntreptiles]

I say locking it down to only paid members is a good start, but total lock down may be an even better solution in the end.

I know of some people who do very well in the classifieds, I have never really had what I would call overwhelming success, however I have personally stopped advertising in the classifieds because of the following issue:

1. Buyers either cant or choose not to read the entire content of the ad before they post, so you spend the majority of your time answering questions that have already been stated in the ad, which is a complete waste of time, AND if you happen to reply to said buyer stating any of the above, that is when the games, and badgering, and disruptive posts seem to happen.

Examples: How many people have placed ads that clearly state "no trades at this time, no shipping at this time" to only have the first post be "interested in any trades?, how much shipped to xxxxx".

So although I am not a paid member at this time, I think that locking it out to only members as a trial to start is a good idea. If a seller really wants to move their animals they will list all of the pertinent contact info so that I can email or call them.

I also agree that we are not infants here, and people should be held accountable for their actions, and if they cant follow the rules then dont play the game.

 

[snowgyre]

Here's a sticky situation that I wouldn't be sure how to handle without being able to post in an advertisement, and I would like to know the procedure if posting does eventually get turned off.

I often skim ads for species that I know are State or Federally endangered, species of special concern, or subjected to different sorts of protection depending upon the state. Recently, there was an advertisement for spotted turtles in Rhode Island selling for $250 each, when Rhode Island has extremely clear laws about the ownership (permit required) and selling (absolutely not permitted) of spotted turtles. The seller wasn't violating any Faunaclassifieds rules that I know of in his advertisement, but he was violating state law.

In this situation, do we report the ad to a moderator to get it locked, or do we post in the BOI despite the fact the seller has not violated any Faunaclassifieds rules? I would be extremely reluctant to contact sellers in this situation, because poaching is such a huge problem for many of these species. For example, I used to know a biologist who, after showing a "friend" his bog turtle study site, later returned to find that every single wild bog turtle had been captured and presumably sold to the pet trade. Considering all of the problems we're having with the U.S. Legislature trying to pass laws against reptile ownership, this is a relatively uncommon situation but it needs to be addressed immediately when it does happen.

 

[WebSlave]

Here's a sticky situation that I wouldn't be sure how to handle without being able to post in an advertisement, and I would like to know the procedure if posting does eventually get turned off.

I often skim ads for species that I know are State or Federally endangered, species of special concern, or subjected to different sorts of protection depending upon the state. Recently, there was an advertisement for spotted turtles in Rhode Island selling for $250 each, when Rhode Island has extremely clear laws about the ownership (permit required) and selling (absolutely not permitted) of spotted turtles. The seller wasn't violating any Faunaclassifieds rules that I know of in his advertisement, but he was violating state law.

In this situation, do we report the ad to a moderator to get it locked, or do we post in the BOI despite the fact the seller has not violated any Faunaclassifieds rules? I would be extremely reluctant to contact sellers in this situation, because poaching is such a huge problem for many of these species. For example, I used to know a biologist who, after showing a "friend" his bog turtle study site, later returned to find that every single wild bog turtle had been captured and presumably sold to the pet trade. Considering all of the problems we're having with the U.S. Legislature trying to pass laws against reptile ownership, this is a relatively uncommon situation but it needs to be addressed immediately when it does happen.

It is impractical for management of this site to know every state, local, federal, and international law concerning animals and products offered for sale, or listed as being wanted on this site. And quite honestly, we are not going to take on that sort of responsibility. To claim that we are would then put us into substantial legal liability in that the presumption would be that anything offered here is legal in all ways in all localities. All transactions are solely between the parties involved, and it is entirely THEIR responsibility to determine any legalities that such transaction might involve them in.

If you see something taking place that you know is illegal in the context of the offering, then you should contact the legal authorities who would have jurisdiction in this matter. It is their responsibility to deal with such issues, and have the authority to do so.

 

[WebSlave]

I call horse hockey! Micro moderating at it's finest. If an ad smells like fish and your willing to let an unknowing buyer be taken for a ride and not pull that ad, well sir you're as bad as that seller. But to penalize another member for questioning or "badgering" a seller who is blatantly dishonest or is talking out of their arse is just absurd.

They never said they would allow a bad ad to stay. They are just eliminating the attacks. Much easier to get rid of a bad posting then numerous replies that contain ton's of stuff people were asked not to do.

Just to make something clear that has been expressed in the past, we do not act as judges in such matters. We do not make judgment calls on who is a good or bad buyer, or a good or bad seller. We merely try to provide the tools on this site to help others to make that determination for themselves.

Just because someone is posting ads on this site does not mean that we approve of them. Nor does the fact that someone has been banned from posting ads on this site mean that we are claiming that they are bad to deal with. Bannings take place because of someone's ACTIONS here on this site in reference to the rules, not because of their status as a "bad guy".

Us making any such claims that we weed out "bad guys" would then put us in the unenviable position of then being responsible for every transaction that takes place here. The presumption would be that anyone selling (or buying) on this site has been approved in some manner simple because they ARE here, and therefore can be trusted completely by the OP in any transaction they engage in. Obviously that would be an extremely foolish position for us to place ourselves in. Just as obviously, I have no intention of exposing myself, this site, or the mods, to that sort of liability. YOU are expected to do all the footwork and research necessary to make the determination if your transaction is wise for YOU. YOU are expected to take every precaution you can to protect yourself from being taken for a ride from a bad deal. Quite frankly, that just is not our job, nor responsibility.

I hope that I have made this issue more clear concerning our position.

 

[JColt]

I probably didnt word that correctly. I mean that this site would not allow knowingly a scam ad to stay up.

 

[Mistyck]

So much for being constructive....

I explained my reasoning. Take it or leave it. No skin off my butt either way.

They're just I don't think they'll understand, and they'll just keep griping, but at least they can't do it in the classifieds anymore, right?

 

[hannahbug7]

I've been looking over the statistics for infractions that the mods have had to dish out, and BY FAR they are spending most of their time in the classifieds section. Problems such as disruptive posts, downright nastiness, members creating false accounts to bump their ads, getting someone also to alternate as a "bump buddy", and all sorts of replies to ads that really have no business being there.

Two problems here: (1) This is giving my mods far more work than they need to be putting in here as volunteers. And (2), the classifieds section has become actually HOSTILE to advertisers trying to sell their animals or merchandise on this site.

This NEEDS to stop.

Yes, some is simply ignorance of new members not knowing the ropes. But they get an infraction for their actions, then get pissed about it and sometimes wind up leaving. So there is no real good way to handle this after the fact. Do I really want to just out right ban anyone immediately who causes these problems? I don't think so. That just tends to rub people the wrong way and can be self defeating.

As I have indicated in the past, there is a simple solution to this sort of problem, but obviously it is not perfect or I would have already implemented it. And that is, to simply STOP all replies to classified threads. Rather than just do the cold turkey approach, I will first limit replies to classified threads so that only paid members can utilize that function. I will then evaluate how effective that has been, and if not enough, then that function ceases for ALL members. The classifieds will become strictly a single post display of what an advertiser has to offer, and that is it. Of course they will need to provide adequate contact info within that post, but that should be common sense anyway.

Another drawback is that other members will not be able to draw attention to a problem with the classified ad, whether about the seller/buyer him or her self, or misrepresentation or misidentification of the animal or other merchandise. Unfortunate, but that simply puts the burden on anyone considering engaging in a transaction with the OP to DO THEIR OWN HOMEWORK. Make certain you know who you are dealing with and what you are buying (or selling). The BOI is here for everyone to use. But I cannot force a horse to drink if it refuses to do so when provided water.

Another drawback is that post count here will likely drop quite a bit. But heck, there are nearly 5,000 entries in the infraction log, and that is telling me that there is a problem that really needs to be addressed here.

Yes, I know some people won't like this, and others will like it. Just par for the course here, but I believe I made it quite clear that I will do what is needed to make this site better. At least from my own perspective. I have no illusions, and will make NO attempts to try to please everyone. If you are one of those who do not like the change, I am sorry about that, but there doesn't appear to be much of an option.

I just don't see where I have done any of these things or done anything wrong...?

 

[hhmoore]

I just don't see where I have done any of these things or done anything wrong...?

The fact that you (or any number of other people) haven't done those things doesn't mean that it isn't a widespread problem. Unfortunately, it isn't feasible (I don't know if it is even possible) to go through and disable that option for just the members that are "part of the problem"....and, even if it was, there would still be people arguing that they weren't that much of a problem, lol. Therefore, the available option is to turn off the ability to respond to classified ads for an entire usergroup. As it happens, I believe that the majority of the warnings and infractions for these violations have been given to the Registered Members usergroup (if for no other reason than that group holds the most members).

While this is largely prompted by the disruptive and hostile nature of some posts, it is also a cure for several other rule violations that exist primarily in the classifieds. We know it is an inconvenience to many; but rest assured, this isn't a knee jerk reaction. Rich has put this off for a long time, watching the situation deteriorate, and watching the infraction numbers climb. The reality of it is that the infraction numbers only tell part of the story - I don't know if "Warnings" show up in the compilation; but I KNOW that the many posts we have made in ads to keep things in check are not considered, nor are the scores of PMs we have sent out to people.

 

[the gecko geek]

I understand all of the reasoning behind this, and in a way I agree with why it was done. But in a way us members, paid or just registered, have already done the work of weeding out the good and bad guys. Most of them have little red boxes under their names. Chances are that the same reason they got those red boxes was the same reason they got infractions. Why not just start there and then if the problem still persisted then keep going. I'm kinda getting irritated that the group of people I'm in always gets punished for something that a minority of the group is responsible for. It's just plain stupid. This is like telling your children that unless they become vegetarians they can no longer eat at your house. They can do everything else but eat there.

That's just my 2 cents.

 

[hhmoore]

Let me make sure I understand....
You think we should sort through 80,000 members to find the ones with negative karma scores, and block those people from posting in the classifieds?

I don't want to address that as a suggestion until it is confirmed (why waste my time if I'm mistaken), so, in the meantime, let me ask this. What is it about posting in the classifieds that is so attractive to people? Do sellers really like doing business in public, so everybody sees the offers? Personally, I HATE people posting in my ads...I refuse to entertain offers that are submitted that way, and I don't want people cluttering my ads with questions. I might appreciate nice comments, but it is useless to put them in my ads. Why? Because I'm going to delete them anyway. Besides, those posts don't really belong in the classifieds.

I'm sorry that you feel you, as a registered member, are getting the short end of the stick, but I apparently don't put the same value on the ability to post in ads that you (and some others) do. It isn't as if you can't advertise, or that you are blocked from viewing the ads. (Yes, I know there was a period that the classifieds weren't free; but that was detrimental to the site and I don't see Rich revisiting that unless/until he just doesn't care what happens to the place.)