Enough is enough with the classifieds (*or* Why you cannot reply to classified ads)

[Southern Wolf]

Rather than just do the cold turkey approach, I will first limit replies to classified threads so that only paid members can utilize that function.

What a way to Might as well just turn it into a pay to play section again.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Bigger pieces of the problem are the people that jump into someone's ad directing viewers to another seller (or trying to sell their own stuff), the sarcastic comments about pricing, the chatter between other members which is unrelated to the sale (we have discussion forums, chat, and PMs for that), and the piling on that occurs in any number of circumstances. (there are other issues, but I'm trying not to belabor the points and drag this out)

so issue infractions for those type of people. Why restrict those of us that try and play by the rules. I get the feeling that Rich is looking for a low count infraction log... but with a site this big and with the rules in place here... you're gonna have to expect a high count infraction log.

This decision is in response to a clear, and growing, problem. In a recent moderator discussion, every one of us acknowledged the beneficial reasons for allowing posted responses, regardless of our personal preferences. The choice not to pull the plug on responses entirely is because we consider those reasons not only valid, but compelling.

You might as well pull the plug. This is only slightly different from the 'pay to play' aspect this site had in years past. Guess what... when Rich did that this place took a nose dive.

 

[Southern Wolf]

Sorry, but this is likely the core of the problem. The classifieds section is NOT a discussion section. It is intended for members to buy and sell their animals and merchandise.

But if your discussing the animal in question... what's the problem unless the seller asks the discussion to be stopped. If the seller is ok with it... it should be allowed. I don't know how many times I have been able to learn something new about a species I was interested in because of a little Q&A on that particular ad.

It should be up to the seller to put a stop to things... not the government of Fauna. How is this any different than our very on US gov force feeding us what they want us to have?

Yes Rich... I know this is your site and you can do what you want. But at the same time... Its the US Gov's country and they also think they can do what they want. Just look at what it's doing to the country.

I personally would have preferred to leave the classifieds as they were, hoping that participants would be able to handle such transactions maturely and professionally. But when I saw the classifieds becoming an extremely hostile environment for legitimate business to take place, I really had no choice but to put an end to that sort of nonsense.

So give infractions and actually let it be known when they were given. Then folks will see what's getting them slapped.

 

[Southern Wolf]

If you see something taking place that you know is illegal in the context of the offering, then you should contact the legal authorities who would have jurisdiction in this matter. It is their responsibility to deal with such issues, and have the authority to do so.

Question.... if a member knows it is illegal and can provide proof (from a state's website) to the staff here... why cant the staff remove the ad?

By leaving the ad up... would that not make fauna an accomplace (sp?) in the crime

Like I said... just asking the question. This way you dont have to know all the rules and regs... but instead you're having the laws handed to you as proof.

 

[Focal]

.......

 

[Matt2979]

But if your discussing the animal in question... what's the problem unless the seller asks the discussion to be stopped. If the seller is ok with it... it should be allowed. I don't know how many times I have been able to learn something new about a species I was interested in because of a little Q&A on that particular ad.

I actually agree with more than just this one argument, but I highlighted THIS one because this was one of the things that drew me to Fauna in the first place. Not only did I learn something about a few animals that I knew nothing/very little about, but this function, along with the BOI has kept me from having any negative transactions with bad sellers. If it's causing too much work then you gotta do what you gotta do.

I'm not making any threats to leave if changes are made, nor am I saying this to complain. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I actually agree with more than just this one argument, but I highlighted THIS one because this was one of the things that drew me to Fauna in the first place. Not only did I learn something about a few animals that I knew nothing/very little about, but this function, along with the BOI has kept me from having any negative transactions with bad sellers. If it's causing too much work then you gotta do what you gotta do.

I'm not making any threats to leave if changes are made, nor am I saying this to complain. Just thought I'd share my thoughts on the subject.

And Im sure Matt is like me. It all started because we like the animal in the photo out to the side of the ad. Otherwise we would have never of opened the ad.

 

[bsharrah]

I don't know how many times I have been able to learn something new about a species I was interested in because of a little Q&A on that particular ad.

So what is the problem with taking your Q&A to a pm or email?

What is it about posting in the classifieds that is so attractive to people? Do sellers really like doing business in public, so everybody sees the offers? Personally, I HATE people posting in my ads...I refuse to entertain offers that are submitted that way, and I don't want people cluttering my ads with questions.

I agree, which is why I usually lock my ads. Unfortunately, many of the conspiracy theorists assume those who lock their ads have something to hide. In reality, they are just tired of having their ads polluted with stupid questions or comments. I am still amazed by the number of people who ask about trades when the ad specifically states "no trades", or asks about shipping when the ad states "local pick up only". The location of the seller is listed under the user name. Why are people still asking questions like "where are you located?" and "how far are you from .....?". Personally, I don't think people realize how good of a thing this really is. Rich has actually prevented a lot of people from publicly looking stupid, but don't worry, their constitutional right to look stupid in private is still intact.

 

[Southern Wolf]

So what is the problem with taking your Q&A to a pm or email?

I'm not the one asking the questions. I learned something from the questions others asked.

I agree, which is why I usually lock my ads. Unfortunately, many of the conspiracy theorists assume those who lock their ads have something to hide.

Alot of those that do... do have something to hide. They lock them so we cant link to their bad guy threads. They dont want to answer for what they have done in the past and could still be doing.

In reality, they are just tired of having their ads polluted with stupid questions or comments. I am still amazed by the number of people who ask about trades when the ad specifically states "no trades", or asks about shipping when the ad states "local pick up only". The location of the seller is listed under the user name. Why are people still asking questions like "where are you located?" and "how far are you from .....?". Personally, I don't think people realize how good of a thing this really is. Rich has actually prevented a lot of people from publicly looking stupid, but don't worry, their constitutional right to look stupid in private is still intact.

It's amazing the amount of folks that want the money... but don't want to deal with customer service. If I have a question.... it should be answered... that is all part of customer service. I dont know how many times I have answered somewhat stupid questions... but I answered each and every one. WHY??? Because good customer service should happen before, during, and after the sale.

As for Rich preventing us from looking stupid. I dont need Rich or the US/State Gov to protect me from myself. Besides... why would you want to keep someone from looking stupid. Chances are.... if it is a recurring theme... then maybe they are stupid, and that would be a red flag for doing business with them.

 

[Dennis Hultman]

This is only slightly different from the 'pay to play' aspect this site had in years past. Guess what... when Rich did that this place took a nose dive.

I would say it is quite a bit different. Before you couldn't post a ad without being a member. That is a lot different and this is simply a format change for the classifieds. It doesn't require anything extra for someone to do to post an ad. It is the same process and costs nothing. Many sites run different setups for classifieds that don't even have the ability to post questions on the ad itself. You can still post and ask sellers questions without being a paid member.

The good thing is Rich can always reverse the decision if it doesn't pan out for the site. It isn't a precise science, running a forum that is. Fauna has continued to grow through all the decisions. Before the change you mention about paying to use the classifieds, the site was busy but nowhere as busy as it is now. If anything it has grown substantially more than what it was before and after those changes when it was reversed.

And Im sure Matt is like me. It all started because we like the animal in the photo out to the side of the ad. Otherwise we would have never of opened the ad.

Discussions can still take place. If not by private message or email, general topics about subjects in the appropriate forum.

Question.... if a member knows it is illegal and can provide proof (from a state's website) to the staff here... why cant the staff remove the ad?

By leaving the ad up... would that not make fauna an accomplace (sp?) in the crime

I think Rich addressed this earlier. Making such a statement publicly that we would remove illegal ads would imply the ones that are left would give a false assurance that it is legal. Take out of the equation the obvious Nigerian scammers of course.

But just to throw this out there. I see often misinterpretations of the laws as well. For instance, many times I see California laws mentioned incorrectly.
Particularly about the exemptions under the propagation permit. Times that by fifty states, and that is a lot of information to verify. Strike that, forty nine because you can't have anything in Hawaii.

Nobody stated that you couldn't send a message to a moderator about a questionable ad or anything for that matter.The site just isn't going to make a statement on the fact that we are going to remove illegal ads. Do we stop at the federal and state or should we know all local laws and ordinances? It just isn't cut and dry to state that we will remove illegal ads. I think Rich would be implying to much.

 

[Southern Wolf]

I would say it is quite a bit different. Before you couldn't post a ad without being a member. That is a lot different and this is simply a format change for the classifieds. It doesn't require anything extra for someone to do to post an ad. It is the same process and costs nothing. Many sites run different setups for classifieds that don't even have the ability to post questions on the ad itself. You can still post and ask sellers questions without being a paid member.

But the point was... I learned something new about that species because I read someone elses Q&A in the ad. That is how I got into some of the critters I had in the past. Kinda hard to do that if everything is in PM or Email.

The good thing is Rich can always reverse the decision if it doesn't pan out for the site. It isn't a precise science, running a forum that is. Fauna has continued to grow through all the decisions. Before the change you mention about paying to use the classifieds, the site was busy but nowhere as busy as it is now. If anything it has grown substantially more than what it was before and after those changes when it was reversed.

Wouldn't that be like closing the barn door after the cows got into the flower beds And Rich has stated in the past that move almost killed the site as well.

I think Rich addressed this earlier. Making such a statement publicly that we would remove illegal ads would imply the ones that are left would give a false assurance that it is legal. Take out of the equation the obvious Nigerian scammers of course.

We know you cant catch them all.... but why not remove the ones that are brought to ya'lls attention that have proof in the form of a states website.

 

[WebSlave]

What a way to Might as well just turn it into a pay to play section again.

Well, if people believe this change was instigated by some desire on my part to try to make more money from this site by forcing more people to become paying members, the simple solution for me to prove otherwise is to simply shut down replies in the classifieds to ALL members. That was what I had originally planned to do, so I don't have any real qualms about doing that.

Thanks for pointing out that my last minute choice to provide paying members to continue to place replies in the classifieds was a poor choice on my part.

But the point was... I learned something new about that species because I read someone elses Q&A in the ad. That is how I got into some of the critters I had in the past. Kinda hard to do that if everything is in PM or Email.

Then I guess you will just have to use the regular discussion forums for your learning material. The classifieds sections were originally intended as an environment for members to buy and sell animals and merchandise, not be a place for people to LEARN about them. I am trying to pull the classifieds back in that direction. That is why there is a separate CLASSIFIEDS section and a separate DISCUSSION section, for each group of animals on this site.

Wouldn't that be like closing the barn door after the cows got into the flower beds And Rich has stated in the past that move almost killed the site as well.

You are looking at apples and calling them oranges.

Besides, I thought you were out of the business? What do you care about what goes on in the classifieds here?

We know you cant catch them all.... but why not remove the ones that are brought to ya'lls attention that have proof in the form of a states website.

Yeah, right.... And how many people would just make up crap, calling it "proof", simply to try to get someone's ads pulled? Hell, I remember an incident where some clown accused me of violating Florida law by copying text from a law in California and claiming it applied to me, without providing the source of that text. When I tried to verify it myself, that's when I found out what this guy was trying to pull off. So if we are presented with "proof" from ANYONE here, then we have to take our time and make the effort to verify it.

And you state that no, we can't catch them all. If you will read my earlier comment, this exposes us to legal liability in that us stating that we are removing posts of an illegal nature, and/or demonstratably engaging in that sort of practice, gives EVERYONE the reasonable expectation that any transaction that they engage in MUST be legal for them to do so. If they then get prosecuted for that transaction, they could have legal standing to drag US into court for providing the means for them to violate the law by not actively protecting them from doing so. Thanks, but NO thanks.

Seriously do you have even a clue about what would be involved to know all the legalities in every locality for every animal being sold on this site? Do you know what animals can be legally sold, bought, caught, or possessed in California, Georgia, New Jersey, Maryland, etc., etc., etc? Well I certainly don't, and quite frankly, I am not going to make it a full time job to find out and then stay on top of it with every law change. On top of that each and every new classified ad would have to be scanned searching for violations of ANY of those laws. Nope. NOT going to happen.

Sorry, but people need to take responsibility for their own actions, not expect some daddy figure to do it for them. If they cannot, or will not, do so, and they continue to do business with someone acting out of ignorance of any applicable laws, then they are the ones responsible, not us. If that is unacceptable to anyone wanting to do business here, then I suggest that this is not the place for them to do business.

 

[Focal]

I think it will actually be reducing sales. Less bumps mean more left over at the end of 30 days for contributing members. Less bumps overall means non-contributing-member ads stay up front longer and less incentive to contribute.
Contributing for bumps doesn't appear to work from what I have seen because the ads can just be deleted and reposted.

 

[Southern Wolf]

You are looking at apples and calling them oranges.

Besides, I thought you were out of the business? What do you care about what goes on in the classifieds here?

Why do I care about what goes on in the BOI, or anywere else. It dont affect me... so I might as well stick my head in the sand and pretend it's not happening.

I really cant believe you said that. Why dont we just let everyone else screw everyone over... and not speak our minds on anything. Why not just shut everything down.

You ought to know me well enough by now, that if something doesnt look or feel right... Im gonna say something about it. Here is what I'm seeing. Everytime I see something in here about the classifieds its because a few are causing problems so you're punishing the whole. Why not just add a couple more staff to handle the excess. You constantly want to talk about the numbers here... and how we have a large member base and a large post basis (which is a good thing... Im not knocking that)... but we have like what... 5 mods. With these numbers... you need more staff to take up the slack. Then you could get the few in line and not punish the many.

Yeah, right.... And how many people would just make up crap, calling it "proof", simply to try to get someone's ads pulled?

If they are linking you to the state website and you're seeing the state laws... how are they gonna be making up stuff and calling it proof.

I know for a fact that it is illegal to keep and sell Ornate Box turtles in the state of AR.. and I can provide proof via their website. They are on the restricted list.... By providing you this proof... you should then be able to see for yourself and then remove the ad from Fauna... you could then issue a warning or infraction to the seller. IF it happens again with that seller then you can see a pattern forming because you can see the warnings/infractions someone has gotten.

**** The Ornate Box Turtle was just an example... I have not seen such ads ****

Hell, I remember an incident where some clown accused me of violating Florida law by copying text from a law in California and claiming it applied to me, without providing the source of that text. When I tried to verify it myself, that's when I found out what this guy was trying to pull off. So if we are presented with "proof" from ANYONE here, then we have to take our time and make the effort to verify it.

If they provide you with the link to the state website (or federal if it happens to be a federal matter)... then what's to chase down. You just have to verify from that link. If they dont provide a link to a state or federal site... then just disreguard.

And you state that no, we can't catch them all. If you will read my earlier comment, this exposes us to legal liability in that us stating that we are removing posts of an illegal nature, and/or demonstratably engaging in that sort of practice, gives EVERYONE the reasonable expectation that any transaction that they engage in MUST be legal for them to do so. If they then get prosecuted for that transaction, they could have legal standing to drag US into court for providing the means for them to violate the law by not actively protecting them from doing so. Thanks, but NO thanks.

Then why dont we just put a warning sign on the coffee cups... cause people are too stupid to realize the coffee is hot. In this day and age there is NO reasonable expectations anymore. Thus all the stupid warning signs.

It's real simple.... Make your own warning sign. "We cant catch all illegal activities, but when it's brought to our attention (with proof) we will try to protect our members".

Why would you want illegal activities here? Why wouldn't you want to know its going on? You have said numerous times... This is my playground and I can do what I want (that's paraphrased).... so why not take steps to protect your playground. It's a private playground and you can deny anyone access without giving reasons if you choose... lord knows my names prolly moving up that list

Why not take a stance of "Illegal activity is not welcomed here" and then keep records so if you need proof you have it. You say you want to clean up this place (and Im all for that)... but I just keep seeing more and more restrictions.

Seriously do you have even a clue about what would be involved to know all the legalities in every locality for every animal being sold on this site? Do you know what animals can be legally sold, bought, caught, or possessed in California, Georgia, New Jersey, Maryland, etc., etc., etc?

Well I certainly don't, and quite frankly, I am not going to make it a full time job to find out and then stay on top of it with every law change. On top of that each and every new classified ad would have to be scanned searching for violations of ANY of those laws. Nope. NOT going to happen.

Apparently you haven't been hearing me. That is where your members come into play. They supply you with that information. Take the ad the member was referring to in this topic. She could have clicked the report post icon... and then supplied a link that show's it's illegal in that location. You dont have to know anything. Your members are helping you out by policing their own.

You just take the materials they supply and act on it. Otherwise... why even have a report post icon. It's to let the members help the staff do their jobs more effectively.

Sorry, but people need to take responsibility for their own actions, not expect some daddy figure to do it for them. If they cannot, or will not, do so, and they continue to do business with someone acting out of ignorance of any applicable laws, then they are the ones responsible, not us. If that is unacceptable to anyone wanting to do business here, then I suggest that this is not the place for them to do business.

so why not put the responsibility of the trouble makers on the trouble makers. Why do we need a daddy figure to punish us all because of a few? Why not let the infraction system take care of the trouble makers like it was supposed to do. Yes... it means your infraction log gets longer, but that's part of having a popular site with lots of members.

 

[WebSlave]

I think it will actually be reducing sales. Less bumps mean more left over at the end of 30 days for contributing members. Less bumps overall means non-contributing-member ads stay up front longer and less incentive to contribute.
Contributing for bumps doesn't appear to work from what I have seen because the ads can just be deleted and reposted.

I guess time will tell....

 

[Riyeko]

I actually have a question.
What about those that are in the herp industry that dont have contributing member status, that want to post ads about their animals here?

Will they not be allowed to post ads anymore?

 

[Southern Wolf]

Jaymie... you will still be able to post your ads. You wont need to contribute for that. You just wont be able to reply in your own ad or anyone elses.

 

[WebSlave]

Why do I care about what goes on in the BOI, or anywere else. It dont affect me... so I might as well stick my head in the sand and pretend it's not happening.

I really cant believe you said that. Why dont we just let everyone else screw everyone over... and not speak our minds on anything. Why not just shut everything down.

You ought to know me well enough by now, that if something doesnt look or feel right... Im gonna say something about it. Here is what I'm seeing. Everytime I see something in here about the classifieds its because a few are causing problems so you're punishing the whole. Why not just add a couple more staff to handle the excess. You constantly want to talk about the numbers here... and how we have a large member base and a large post basis (which is a good thing... Im not knocking that)... but we have like what... 5 mods. With these numbers... you need more staff to take up the slack. Then you could get the few in line and not punish the many.




If they are linking you to the state website and you're seeing the state laws... how are they gonna be making up stuff and calling it proof.

I know for a fact that it is illegal to keep and sell Ornate Box turtles in the state of AR.. and I can provide proof via their website. They are on the restricted list.... By providing you this proof... you should then be able to see for yourself and then remove the ad from Fauna... you could then issue a warning or infraction to the seller. IF it happens again with that seller then you can see a pattern forming because you can see the warnings/infractions someone has gotten.

**** The Ornate Box Turtle was just an example... I have not seen such ads ****



If they provide you with the link to the state website (or federal if it happens to be a federal matter)... then what's to chase down. You just have to verify from that link. If they dont provide a link to a state or federal site... then just disreguard.



Then why dont we just put a warning sign on the coffee cups... cause people are too stupid to realize the coffee is hot. In this day and age there is NO reasonable expectations anymore. Thus all the stupid warning signs.

It's real simple.... Make your own warning sign. "We cant catch all illegal activities, but when it's brought to our attention (with proof) we will try to protect our members".

Why would you want illegal activities here? Why wouldn't you want to know its going on? You have said numerous times... This is my playground and I can do what I want (that's paraphrased).... so why not take steps to protect your playground. It's a private playground and you can deny anyone access without giving reasons if you choose... lord knows my names prolly moving up that list

Why not take a stance of "Illegal activity is not welcomed here" and then keep records so if you need proof you have it. You say you want to clean up this place (and Im all for that)... but I just keep seeing more and more restrictions.



Apparently you haven't been hearing me. That is where your members come into play. They supply you with that information. Take the ad the member was referring to in this topic. She could have clicked the report post icon... and then supplied a link that show's it's illegal in that location. You dont have to know anything. Your members are helping you out by policing their own.

You just take the materials they supply and act on it. Otherwise... why even have a report post icon. It's to let the members help the staff do their jobs more effectively.



so why not put the responsibility of the trouble makers on the trouble makers. Why do we need a daddy figure to punish us all because of a few? Why not let the infraction system take care of the trouble makers like it was supposed to do. Yes... it means your infraction log gets longer, but that's part of having a popular site with lots of members.

Thanks for the feedback, Kevin, but these issues were fully considered before the policy change was implemented. I'm just going to let the pot simmer now and see if the soup is better or worse when enough time has passed.

 

[WebSlave]

I actually have a question.
What about those that are in the herp industry that dont have contributing member status, that want to post ads about their animals here?

Will they not be allowed to post ads anymore?

As was indicated, non contributing members can still post classified ads as before. The change is simply that non contributing members can no longer respond to those threads (ads). And quite honestly, if the abuses continue, then the reply function will go away for contributing members as well.

 

[Riyeko]

As was indicated, non contributing members can still post classified ads as before. The change is simply that non contributing members can no longer respond to those threads (ads). And quite honestly, if the abuses continue, then the reply function will go away for contributing members as well.

Oh okay.
I read the whole post a couple days ago, and since I work on the weekends my brain got purged of obviously some good information.

Thanks!