woman in NY dead from Mamba Bite

[redhood23]

Was also on CNN

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/06/16/bite-from-pet-snake-suspected-in-death-ny-woman/

 

[Lucille]

After reading the article, I am curious about whether antivenin can be kept and given at home. I think I saw a statistic about black mambas, that their bites are almost 100% fatal unless the antivenin is administered within 20 minutes. Is that a realistic statistic?
Even with a prepared hospital and in an urban area with responsive medical emergency crews, it is difficult to see how a call, transport, assessment and antivenin administration could occur within that time frame.

 

[SPJ]

The black mamba and the rest of the snakes - some of them venomous - were turned over to the Bronx Zoo

Great. Now a mamba will be loose.

 

[Focal]

After reading the article, I am curious about whether antivenin can be kept and given at home. I think I saw a statistic about black mambas, that their bites are almost 100% fatal unless the antivenin is administered within 20 minutes. Is that a realistic statistic?
Even with a prepared hospital and in an urban area with responsive medical emergency crews, it is difficult to see how a call, transport, assessment and antivenin administration could occur within that time frame.

I was talking to someone a couple months ago that kept venomous and I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but they said antivenom can cost up to five digits. Not a small price to pay for your life if you can come up with it.

 

[Lucille]

That's a lot of money. I read how lethal the mamba venom is, and also that it is one of the fastest snakes in the world. I guess I'm wondering what kind of preparations most keepers take when they decide to keep a mamba. I'm sure that adequate preparations are needed with any venomous, but this particular kind of snake seems to be quite deadly.

 

[hhmoore]

I was talking to someone a couple months ago that kept venomous and I'm not sure how accurate the info is, but they said antivenom can cost up to five digits. Not a small price to pay for your life if you can come up with it.

Well, it isn't that simple. The (per vial) cost of antivenom depends on the type of snake, and the total cost is that amount x the total number of vials used. Based on some old pricing (2004, from Miami Dade AV $950/vial) for CroFab, and information on the average total dose (10.9 vials - CroFab); that's $10,450 just for the CroFab....assuming, of course, that one could acquire it for that price. Then, one must keep in mind that CroFab has a shelf life of 30 months when stored properly (at 2-8 degrees Celsius).
Interestingly, while digging around for current pricing, I found that CroFab can be purchased from Drugstore.com....for the pittance of $23,063.18 for 10 (it is unclear whether that is 10 vials, 10 packages of however many vials, or ?....but I suspect that is their per vial cost)

After reading the article, I am curious about whether antivenin can be kept and given at home.

Not really feasible, for numerous reasons.
I believe that special permits are required to purchase/possess antivenom (that might be workable)
IV administration (that, too, might be workable, depending)
Product must be reconstituted (which, according to recommended procedure for CroFab, takes about 25 minutes) then diluted. (still possible at home)
Even if the above factors were reasonable, there is still the issue of safety, supportive therapy, and managing side effects. CroFab is very safe, compared to the old Crotalid Polyvalent; but coagulopathy is still a concern in 75% of treated patients, and serum sickness is still a possibility.
That is for the treatment of North American crotalid bites; which are "relatively mild" in comparison to many venomous species. Species with more potent venoms bring a variety of other issues to the table. In cases of a more neurotoxic venom, patients may need to be intubated/ventilated until the venom is neutralized. Also, as mentioned, CroFab is relatively safe....there are greater risks associated with other antivenoms (including anaphylaxis), many of which are not even produced in this country.

My former (business) partner used to tell me about some people he knew that did venom acquisition for research and and antivenom production...I can't say whether it is true or not, but he said that their response plan for some of the snakes they worked with was a large meat cleaver - since their best option was to stop the spread of the venom, rather than risk circulation. Looking back, I'm still not sure if he said that to impress on me the dangers of the snakes we were talking about, or if that was how things were back then

 

[snowgyre]

I really, really don't see the need to keep such incredibly venomous and dangerous creatures in private collections. Forget about boas and pythons on the injurious list... mambas should be there, along with any snake that has the potential either through volume of venom delivered or venom toxicity to kill a healthy adult human.

I'd rather have a loaded gun pointed at my head with the hammer cocked than a loose mamba in my neighborhood.

 

[WebSlave]

Does typical health insurance cover the medical expenses incurred from a venomous snake bite in a situation whereby the person bitten was keeping them in his or her care?

If not, this could be quite an expensive ride for someone..... And more than likely their health insurance would drop them like a hot potato afterwards.

 

[snowgyre]

Not to mention do life insurance policies cover this sort of death?

 

[SPJ]

Does typical health insurance cover the medical expenses incurred from a venomous snake bite in a situation whereby the person bitten was keeping them in his or her care?

If not, this could be quite an expensive ride for someone..... And more than likely their health insurance would drop them like a hot potato afterwards.

No. I took a dry bite from a copperhead years ago and despite me saying no compression bandage, no anti-venom needed, or that I could go home since it was a dry bite, the hospital charged me THOUSANDS of dollars that was denied by my insurance. I eventually got sued by the hospital and it took 5 years to pay them back. Figure 5 years of monthly payments on a luxury car that you don't own. Insurance is quick to deny any claims for snake bites.

 

[hhmoore]

It doesn't take much to get into the THOUSANDS, lol.

I believe Steve's experience would be the common one - assuming that the snake was captive. I had an acquaintance years ago that was envenomated by a devenomized cobra; I'm fairly certain that his claim was denied, but he was trying to fight it on the grounds that the cobra was supposed to be devenomized. I doubt he got anywhere with it, though.
Life insurance - I don't know.

 

[Lucille]

this could be quite an expensive ride for someone.....

And the expense could rise exponentially if the venomous snake they owned bit someone else.

 

[SPJ]

It doesn't take much to get into the THOUSANDS, lol.

I believe Steve's experience would be the common one - assuming that the snake was captive. I had an acquaintance years ago that was envenomated by a devenomized cobra; I'm fairly certain that his claim was denied, but he was trying to fight it on the grounds that the cobra was supposed to be devenomized. I doubt he got anywhere with it, though.
Life insurance - I don't know.

I believe so. I think they tend to deny more often that not if the animal is a captive versus if it happened randomly from a wild snake.

 

[hhmoore]

I really, really don't see the need to keep such incredibly venomous and dangerous creatures in private collections. Forget about boas and pythons on the injurious list... mambas should be there, along with any snake that has the potential either through volume of venom delivered or venom toxicity to kill a healthy adult human.

I'd rather have a loaded gun pointed at my head with the hammer cocked than a loose mamba in my neighborhood.

A lot of people keep venomous...for a long time, I was one of them. There is one basic truth that comes into play, and accepting it could eliminate a whole bunch of useless laws. You can't legislate against stupidity. As long as people are allowed to breathe, we will do stupid things. While I can understand the argument against people keeping certain species - I will never support legislation that draws that line; if for no other reason than once it is there, it tends to be a starting point rather than a solution. From highly venomous to any venomous, from venomous to large constrictors, crocodilians, and monitors. From those to boas, tegus, and iguanas. Where does it end? Look at breed legislation across the country, and the ongoing injurious species battle/python ban.
Do I think people should be allowed to keep bears and tigers in their homes - nope. Do I understand the similarities between that and keeping crocodilians and hots - yup. How could I not when so called dangerous animal legislation has been the doorway to banning many herps. The thing is, those laws don't work. NYC is the most prohibitive area I know of, offhand, when it comes to the animals one can keep...but people keep what they want. Sure, every couple of years, there is a high profile bust - somebody gets raided and all sorts of exotics are plastered all over the news. How much impact does that have on the people that openly advertise and solicit illegal animals?

Sorry - got off on a little tangent.
Just for the record, there IS legislation restricting ownership of venomous reptiles in NYS...and, from what I understand, they've made it almost impossible to get new permits (which is the main reason I haven't reactivated mine - I'd much rather have a cobra than a damn ball python, lol). Any bets on whether that mamba was held under permit?

 

[KelliH]

While I can understand the argument against people keeping certain species - I will never support legislation that draws that line; if for no other reason than once it is there, it tends to be a starting point rather than a solution. From highly venomous to any venomous, from venomous to large constrictors, crocodilians, and monitors. From those to boas, tegus, and iguanas. Where does it end? Look at breed legislation across the country, and the ongoing injurious species battle/python ban.

Yeah I agree with that. Once the government gets their toe wet, they are going to want to dive all the way in and make it unlawful to keep any herp at home. As far as the antivenin goes, most private collectors do not stock vials of antivenin for all the hots they keep. When a bite happens, there is protocol that should be followed, and that includes calling 911 or, if someone is there with you (which there should ALWAYS be a second person around when you work venomous) they should transport you to the hospital right away. Most hospitals are only going to stock native snake antivenin, therefore if it is a non native bite, the hospital will reach out to zoos for help. I feel bad for this person that was bitten, and don't understand why in the world she would not immediately call 911. It makes me suspicious that something else might have been going on there.

 

[JordanAng420]

Yeah I agree with that. Once the government gets their toe wet, they are going to want to dive all the way in and make it unlawful to keep any herp at home. As far as the antivenin goes, most private collectors do not stock vials of antivenin for all the hots they keep. When a bite happens, there is protocol that should be followed, and that includes calling 911 or, if someone is there with you (which there should ALWAYS be a second person around when you work venomous) they should transport you to the hospital right away. Most hospitals are only going to stock native snake antivenin, therefore if it is a non native bite, the hospital will reach out to zoos for help. I feel bad for this person that was bitten, and don't understand why in the world she would not immediately call 911. It makes me suspicious that something else might have been going on there.

I agree...

I did read some reports that included some statements from friends/neighbors/aquaintences that said she was a quiet person who kept to herself, and one person had even said they wouldn't be suprised if the bite was intentional on her part, making the cause of death suicide.

Terrible way to go, but given the circumstances, there ARE a lot of things that don't make sense.

 

[Bill T]

What is the fascination with poisons snakes?

 

[hhmoore]

What's the fascination with whatever you keep?

 

[Katie.Shinkle]

What is the fascination with poisons snakes?

Venomous snakes...not poisonous (or...poisons, like you said...).

 

[Utta]

What is the fascination with poisons snakes?

Different stroaks for different folks.

Every species has snakes that are the bad apples. Even hots. But why does that mean people shouldnt keep em? If you havent worked with, say cobra's. You dont know the joys of working with them. Why cant a king cobra have the same joys as others BPs?