Stop Torturing Your Pythons!

[R. Eventide]

I know this is a touchy subject (and I really don't like confrontations), but I'm going to go ahead and do this for the sake of the snakes we all know and love. For me not to say anything is almost as bad as condoning (or worse, ignoring) the behavior.

STOP FREEZING YOUR PYTHONS!

I know this comes up over and over again, and each time, I'm horrified and appalled by the sheer number of people who think this is an acceptable form of euthanasia. Even worse, two of the leading BP books by renown breeders condone this method of euthanasia based on, quite frankly, a lack of basic understanding of reptiles and faulty logic.

The reason this has come to my attention (again) is because of an article in the most recent Pacific Northwest Herpetological Society newsletter (written by the well-known reptile vet, Dr. Maas):

http://www.pnwhs.org/Articles/Freezing-reptiles-form-euthanasia

Some of the highlights:

"Unfortunately, the myth that freezing herps is a good way to put them down persists. It almost makes sense, being that reptiles and amphibians are 'cold-blooded,' but in fact, this adaptation makes this procedure even worse for them. This is because as they get cold, they become torporous, that is, alert mentally but unable to move or respond. This is in contrast to mammals, which become unable to move, but also become mentally dull and comatose as they become hypothermic. As a result, reptiles and amphibians can feel their body get cold, which produces pain, but they can do nothing about it. Studies show that they can, literally, feel their cells freeze and rupture as they get further chilled, sensing pain as intensely as if they were being burned alive, but unable to move or respond."

"If a veterinarian recommended [freezing] to you, it could be categorized as malpractice."

Another resource I frequently cite is the American Veterinary Medical Association's Guidelines on Euthanasia: http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf (reptiles and amphibians are on page 20):

"Cooling—It has been suggested that, when using physical methods of euthanasia in ectothermic species, cooling to 4 C will decrease metabolism and facilitate handling, but there is no evidence that whole body cooling reduces pain or is clinically efficacious (206). Local cooling in frogs does reduce nociception, and this may be partly opioid mediated (207). Immobilization of reptiles by cooling is considered inappropriate and inhumane even if combined with other physical or chemical methods of euthanasia. Snakes and turtles, immobilized by cooling, have been killed by subsequent freezing. This method is not recommended (13). Formation of ice crystals on the skin and in tissues of an animal may cause pain or distress. Quick freezing of deeply anesthetized animals is acceptable (208)."

Why do two of the big-time breeders condone freezing reptiles? In both books I've read, they claim that because the snake stops moving, that means it can no longer feel pain. One mentions how a snake escaped during the winter and was found frozen in place, as if it was going along normally and suddenly just stopped moving (i.e., the snake did not show any signs of pain or suffering). I don't know how they come to this conclusion--a lack of movement does not mean a lack of pain! As Dr. Maas expressed above, reptiles can only move when the ambient temperature is high enough for them to move. When their body temperature gets down to a certain point, they can't move anymore...but they are still alive!

For example, during the winter, people have accidentally dug up brumating rattlesnakes down here at construction sites and the like. The snakes are extremely sluggish, and in many cases, they are barely able to move at all. Do you think these snakes can feel pain? If you chopped off their tails, what would they do? They'd probably contort, strike, or something similar, but they would do it very slowly--maybe so slow that in the first few moments, they wouldn't appear to respond at all. These snakes can obviously feel pain; why would a few degrees lower--to the point where they cannot move anymore--equal a lack of pain? It does not make logical sense.

If nothing else, why do people take the advice of breeders over the veterinarians and scientists who study reptiles for a living? I'm sorry, but breeding reptiles does not make a person a scientist nor does it automatically make one an expert in herpetology. It can help, sure--I've learned a crapton from taking animals to the vet and talking with both vets and knowledgeable vet techs. I've also learned a lot from one of the breeders I've mentioned who has a popular book out about BPs. (I went to one of his talks when he came to the local herp society, and I bought his book, which has all kinds of good information in it.)

There are several perfectly acceptable ways of euthanizing reptiles out there. Why is it so difficult for people to do those? I realize it costs money to take your reptile to the vet to be put down, but that's the cost of keeping reptiles. If someone cannot afford to euthanize their reptiles at the vet, how can they afford normal vet costs? If someone cannot afford normal vet costs for their pets, they have no business owning them.

Lastly, if there's even a chance that freezing your reptile causes distress or pain--when there are acceptable, painless methods available--why do it? The only reasons I can think of all boil down to one thing: not having the animal's best interest at heart.

Please, for the sake of your reptiles, stop doing this!

 

[Necoco]

Normal vet bills here and there are fine,but taking what could possibly end up being loads of deformed hatchlings (Especially if you work with a lot of animals,but also implies to the small breeders as well) to the vet just to be euthanized? I don't think so,that racks up far to much money and therefore takes away from the amount you can spend on feeding them and giving them clean bedding. And if you breed your own food stock it also takes away the amount of food and bedding you can give to them. I for one see no problem with using the freezer because it means i don't have to make a special trip to town,which saves gas and in turn saves more money for your existing animals. So actually when you add all that up people you use the freezer method do in fact have their animal's best interest in mind.

 

[Wolfy-hound]

I've heard the argument from vets that freezing is humane, and now you're saying it's inhumane. Some vets will say that it's inhumane to use a bullet to put down a horse, even though humane slaughter uses a humane bolt to the head to achieve exactly the same result, while many people who have watched a vet put their horses down via chemical euthanasia wil say that was inhumane.

Vets have a vested interest in reccomending chemical euthanasia. You mentioned "acceptable painless methods available". Care to list those out? I've seen a snake dying from the chemical euthanasia and I guarentee that was not painless and was not fast. I've listened to vet techs tell me how a tortoise took hours to have the heart stop beating from a chemical euthanasia.

Also, in some places a chemical euthanasia means you cannot bury the animal(without a sealed casket) due to ground water contamination. So what's the acceptable method for disposal? You guessed it, cremation through your vet(via subcontracted companies generally).

So while I'm concerned for my reptiles humane death, when it becomes necessary, I tend to go with what seems to have been more humane. How long do you think a reptile brain remains working if it's freezing? Remember a snake is cold-blooded so there is no natural heat concentrating in vital areas like mammals. So the brain freezes fairly quickly(in my opinion) due to the brain being relatively unprotected by any density. The mass of the snake's body would hold heat longer in fact, due to it's simple thickness compared to the head. Could the skin freeze first? Yes, I suppose technically the skin could freeze first. But how sensitive is reptile skin going to be? Sensitive to touch yes, but the skin of a reptile doesn't contain as much water as mammal skin, so it's not going to freeze in the same manner.

If the freezer is a deep cold that freezes quickly, couldn't it be more humane to freeze the brain(thus shutting down all cognitive function) than subject the animal to a chemical injection that can(does) cause distress and death? How long does the chemical take to kill the brain itself? Not the heart stopping, but the brain death?

Where's the studies regarding brain death? How would they determine brain death? Snakes don't have blinking reaction to test which is a classic test of brain death in mammals.

Don't get me wrong, I think that finding the most HUMANE way to kill an animal is laudable. I simply don't know that I agree with your findings, or the vets findings that you're quoting. It has little to do with money to me although I understand it would be a concern for large scale breeders. To me the actual fastest most humane method of killing a serpent would actually be pithing the brain. It's instant brain death. But it's "brutal" to watch or do. Why not reccomend that, if you are advocating for the most humane death?

 

[Miss Tuniwha]

I have a question.. I have heard this same point against freezing, but also heard that to refrigerate them first, would slow the heart rate/blood flow etc etc causing a great deal less pain when you then put them in the freezer..


anyone have any feedback on this? anyone else heard this?

 

[Necoco]

I have a question.. I have heard this same point against freezing, but also heard that to refrigerate them first, would slow the heart rate/blood flow etc etc causing a great deal less pain when you then put them in the freezer..


anyone have any feedback on this? anyone else heard this?

Hmmm..Never heard of it but it certainly is an interesting thought.

 

[Helenthereef]

That's how I kill small geckos, fridge first to put them into torpor then rapid freezing. However, I wouldn't do it to a bigger animal as the larger body mass would mean it froze by degrees, not quickly, so I think size matters here.

What about fridge to put onto torpor and then decapitation and pithing so there was less struggle and yet a quick destruction. (I know that just decapitation is not adequate as the head can continue to live, in pain, for some time, you must pith or crush - i.e., physically destroy brain tissue).

 

[R. Eventide]

Sorry for having to reply to everyone separately. The multi-quote option isn't working.

Normal vet bills here and there are fine,but taking what could possibly end up being loads of deformed hatchlings (Especially if you work with a lot of animals,but also implies to the small breeders as well) to the vet just to be euthanized? I don't think so,that racks up far to much money and therefore takes away from the amount you can spend on feeding them and giving them clean bedding. And if you breed your own food stock it also takes away the amount of food and bedding you can give to them. I for one see no problem with using the freezer because it means i don't have to make a special trip to town,which saves gas and in turn saves more money for your existing animals. So actually when you add all that up people you use the freezer method do in fact have their animal's best interest in mind.

Are deformed hatchlings truly so common that euthanizing them at a vet would be debilitatingly expensive? I don't think so. If that's the case, I think we need to start looking at our breeding practices because there's something very wrong going on!

To euthanize a small lizard at my vet, for example of price, was less than $12. Euthanizing a deformed baby BP will be the same price or only a tiny bit more (they're about the same weight). Ergo, euthanizing, say, five baby pythons a year (seems like a lot to me) would be about the same cost as a regular reptile vet visit.

Also, if spending the money at the vet is taking money away from something as necessary as bedding, then I also think the person needs to re-evaluate whether they can truly afford to take care of the animals they have. Euthanasia by a vet is just like any other vet bill--it needs to be taken into account when estimating costs for keeping any pet.

Of course, there are other accepted euthanasia options rather than taking it to the vet (as others here have mentioned), if one doesn't want to go that route.

 

[Helenthereef]

Also, if spending the money at the vet is taking money away from something as necessary as bedding, then I also think the person needs to re-evaluate whether they can truly afford to take care of the animals they have.

In a discussion about the ethics of euthanasia re causing pain and suffering, the argument that causing pain is OK because it's cheaper is really not a valid one.

 

[Necoco]

Sorry for having to reply to everyone separately. The multi-quote option isn't working.



Are deformed hatchlings truly so common that euthanizing them at a vet would be debilitatingly expensive? I don't think so. If that's the case, I think we need to start looking at our breeding practices because there's something very wrong going on!

To euthanize a small lizard at my vet, for example of price, was less than $12. Euthanizing a deformed baby BP will be the same price or only a tiny bit more (they're about the same weight). Ergo, euthanizing, say, five baby pythons a year (seems like a lot to me) would be about the same cost as a regular reptile vet visit.

Also, if spending the money at the vet is taking money away from something as necessary as bedding, then I also think the person needs to re-evaluate whether they can truly afford to take care of the animals they have. Euthanasia by a vet is just like any other vet bill--it needs to be taken into account when estimating costs for keeping any pet.

Of course, there are other accepted euthanasia options rather than taking it to the vet (as others here have mentioned), if one doesn't want to go that route.

It can happen,i was talking to a friend who breeds garter snakes a few weeks ago and they had an entire litter of 36 about a year ago come out deformed,and the female was immediately retired from breeding and kept as a pet. Also,that's one vet,it's hard to say what one around here costs since i've never gone and had it done.

 

[Necoco]

Also,after reading about putting them in the fridge first i'll probably be doing that first.

 

[Helenthereef]

Also,after reading about putting them in the fridge first i'll probably be doing that first.

I think it's an improvement to the technique. Also do think about head crushing as soon as possible - I know it's less pleasant for the human, but it's more humane for the reptile, and that needs to be a priority.

 

[R. Eventide]

I've heard the argument from vets that freezing is humane, and now you're saying it's inhumane. Some vets will say that it's inhumane to use a bullet to put down a horse, even though humane slaughter uses a humane bolt to the head to achieve exactly the same result, while many people who have watched a vet put their horses down via chemical euthanasia wil say that was inhumane.

Vets have a vested interest in reccomending chemical euthanasia. You mentioned "acceptable painless methods available". Care to list those out? I've seen a snake dying from the chemical euthanasia and I guarentee that was not painless and was not fast. I've listened to vet techs tell me how a tortoise took hours to have the heart stop beating from a chemical euthanasia.

I have never, ever heard any vet--or anyone who works with reptiles in any capacity, including non-vets--say euthanasia via freezing (with the exception of using liquid nitrogen for reptiles less than 40 g) was acceptable.

I do not believe anyone who says chemical euthanasia used by vets--where they use a large amount of anesthetic--is in any way painful or inhumane. For one, nowhere did I say it's fast. It's not. This does not mean the method is painful or inhumane. (The more anesthetic used, the faster it happens, though, so it can be sped up to some extent, though, of course, this depends on the size of the reptile.) The needle stick might hurt a little bit, but it can be done in a way where the reptile doesn't feel it. And it's a crapton better than whatever suffering the reptile is probably going though! Also, if an anesthetic does what the vet techs you mention say, why are we using it as an anesthetic, for heaven's sake? It's an anesthetic! This means it makes the animal insensitive to pain! How in the world would that cause pain and suffering to the animal? Again, if it does, then we need to stop using these chemicals at all!

Also, in some places a chemical euthanasia means you cannot bury the animal(without a sealed casket) due to ground water contamination. So what's the acceptable method for disposal? You guessed it, cremation through your vet(via subcontracted companies generally).

I need to see evidence of this, as sodium pentobarbital has a very short half-life (two days, at most), and even if it somehow managed to leech into groundwater, the amounts used to kill reptiles should do nothing to humans.

A person could also cremate their own pets, y'know.

So while I'm concerned for my reptiles humane death, when it becomes necessary, I tend to go with what seems to have been more humane. How long do you think a reptile brain remains working if it's freezing? Remember a snake is cold-blooded so there is no natural heat concentrating in vital areas like mammals. So the brain freezes fairly quickly(in my opinion) due to the brain being relatively unprotected by any density. The mass of the snake's body would hold heat longer in fact, due to it's simple thickness compared to the head. Could the skin freeze first? Yes, I suppose technically the skin could freeze first. But how sensitive is reptile skin going to be? Sensitive to touch yes, but the skin of a reptile doesn't contain as much water as mammal skin, so it's not going to freeze in the same manner.

If the freezer is a deep cold that freezes quickly, couldn't it be more humane to freeze the brain(thus shutting down all cognitive function) than subject the animal to a chemical injection that can(does) cause distress and death? How long does the chemical take to kill the brain itself? Not the heart stopping, but the brain death?

Where's the studies regarding brain death? How would they determine brain death? Snakes don't have blinking reaction to test which is a classic test of brain death in mammals.

You honestly think that the brain (1) freezes before nerves in the skin, muscles, and skull begin to feel freezing effects and (2) the entire brain freezes all at once? This makes no sense physically. Take jell-o (even cooled in the fridge first, given your cold-blooded no-heat-capacity argument) and put it in the freezer and tell me the middle freezes first (or it all freezes at once). This is, in effect, what you're arguing: that the brain freezes all at once and it freezes before the skin/muscles/skull do. In terms of pure physics, this makes no sense.

Don't get me wrong, I think that finding the most HUMANE way to kill an animal is laudable. I simply don't know that I agree with your findings, or the vets findings that you're quoting. It has little to do with money to me although I understand it would be a concern for large scale breeders. To me the actual fastest most humane method of killing a serpent would actually be pithing the brain. It's instant brain death. But it's "brutal" to watch or do. Why not reccomend that, if you are advocating for the most humane death?

I'm not not advocating pithing. I'm only advocating against freezing.
If a person doesn't want to go the pithing route (I wouldn't either), that's fine. But one must then consider the best, most humane options. And freezing is not one of those.

 

[R. Eventide]

I have a question.. I have heard this same point against freezing, but also heard that to refrigerate them first, would slow the heart rate/blood flow etc etc causing a great deal less pain when you then put them in the freezer..


anyone have any feedback on this? anyone else heard this?

Please read the materials I linked. They both say putting reptiles in the fridge first is no better than freezing.

This makes sense because, once again, putting the reptile in the fridge only slows the animal down. It does absolutely nothing against the animal feeling pain. Unlike warm-blooded animals, reptiles don't go numb from the cold! Re-read my comments about brumating rattlesnakes.

 

[Necoco]

I think it's an improvement to the technique. Also do think about head crushing as soon as possible - I know it's less pleasant for the human, but it's more humane for the reptile, and that needs to be a priority.

Will keep that in mind,hope to god i don't ever actually have to put anyone down though. Although it shouldn't be too hard,i've done it to mice. Just a well placed thump is all you need.

 

[R. Eventide]

It can happen,i was talking to a friend who breeds garter snakes a few weeks ago and they had an entire litter of 36 about a year ago come out deformed,and the female was immediately retired from breeding and kept as a pet. Also,that's one vet,it's hard to say what one around here costs since i've never gone and had it done.

Yes, it does happen, thought it's rare. Just like how most of one's collection can get sick all at once. Does that mean only some should be treated? Again, this is something one needs to take into consideration when purchasing pets/breeders.

With that many, something other than sodium pentobarbital would probably be better. Asphyxiation via CO2, for instance (which is cheap and can be done by the breeder). The downside is that this can take a really, really long time, but again, it's better than freezing.

True, it is just one vet. However, it's highly unlikely that what's $12 for me is going to be $100+ for someone else. I've read threads about what a typical reptile vet bill is in various places, and while they do vary, they don't vary all that much ($50-$80 was the spread, if I remember correctly).

 

[Helenthereef]

If a person doesn't want to go the pithing route (I wouldn't either), that's fine.

I used to work in an animal lab. I've manually killed many small animal species. Pithing is only OK if you are an expert, and it can still be distressing to everyone involved. Head crushing will have the same effect, and there have been extensive discussions in these forums about decapitation (NOT GOOD) vs head crushing.

Here is a practical suggestion on how to head crush with the minimum of distress to all involved.

1. Cool the animal in the fridge until it is torpid (ie completely immobile).

2. QUICKLY wrap torpid animal's head in an absorbent cloth (thin towel / paper towel etc).

3. QUICKLY (you do not want the animal to warm up again) Hit the head (still inside the towel) with a blunt object - hammer, tennis racket handle etc.

Make sure that you have thoroughly crushed the entire head and brain.

Result = Quick and hopefully painless death with minimum trauma to human, also free.

 

[Helenthereef]

Asphyxiation via CO2, for instance (which is cheap and can be done by the breeder).

Actually, although I have read veterinary publications recommending this, I disagree. I've seen animals killed with Co2 and it is suffocation. They struggle to breath.

A swift, confident blow to the head is quickest in all cases.

 

[R. Eventide]

I used to work in an animal lab. I've manually killed many small animal species. Pithing is only OK if you are an expert, and it can still be distressing to everyone involved. Head crushing will have the same effect, and there have been extensive discussions in these forums about decapitation (NOT GOOD) vs head crushing.

Here is a practical suggestion on how to head crush with the minimum of distress to all involved.

1. Cool the animal in the fridge until it is torpid (ie completely immobile).

2. QUICKLY wrap torpid animal's head in an absorbent cloth (thin towel / paper towel etc).

3. QUICKLY (you do not want the animal to warm up again) Hit the head (still inside the towel) with a blunt object - hammer, tennis racket handle etc.

Make sure that you have thoroughly crushed the entire head and brain.

Result = Quick and hopefully painless death with minimum trauma to human, also free.

That sounds like a much better way to do it, especially for the human involved! Thank you for posting this!

 

[R. Eventide]

Actually, although I have read veterinary publications recommending this, I disagree. I've seen animals killed with Co2 and it is suffocation. They struggle to breath.

A swift, confident blow to the head is quickest in all cases.

It depends on the animal. Some go unconscious before the suffocation begins (rodents, for instance). I'm less certain about reptiles.

What animals have you seen killed with CO2 that struggle to breathe? (This is an honest question!)

 

[Necoco]

Yes, it does happen, thought it's rare. Just like how most of one's collection can get sick all at once. Does that mean only some should be treated? Again, this is something one needs to take into consideration when purchasing pets/breeders.

With that many, something other than sodium pentobarbital would probably be better. Asphyxiation via CO2, for instance (which is cheap and can be done by the breeder). The downside is that this can take a really, really long time, but again, it's better than freezing.

True, it is just one vet. However, it's highly unlikely that what's $12 for me is going to be $100+ for someone else. I've read threads about what a typical reptile vet bill is in various places, and while they do vary, they don't vary all that much ($50-$80 was the spread, if I remember correctly).

Still,that's a lot of money (For me anyways,the only job i have right now is baby sitting). I'd rather spend that money on vet bills if they're sick and i can't give them the proper care myself. But that's my opinion.